OP
OP
Well - I think we agree on about 4 or 5 majors points then it's me against you 2.
Shawn
Matrix Reloaded (SPOILERS possible)
- Thread starter FischerKing
- Start date
Well - I think we agree on about 4 or 5 majors points then it's me against you 2.
Shawn
I honestly don't remember him saying either of those words in this movie.
He did say woah in the first one.
Mike
OP
OP
I was listening for that last night and I didn't hear it at all - at least from what I can recall.
Shawn
Shawn
This was one of the worst movies I've ever seen.
Not quite the worst Lost in Space, AI and Highlander 2 live in that land.
But this came close.
I never knew Skorp had this part of the board
Not quite the worst Lost in Space, AI and Highlander 2 live in that land.
But this came close.
I never knew Skorp had this part of the board
Honestly, I think people are going overboard when they say it's the worst, when it's really only part 1 of the story.
Of any sequel ever made, this truly is one of those movies where you can't judge the first one until you've seen the second...because they are THAT connected.
Mike
Mike have you seen it ?
I like most other people loved the first movie, it had great action, great special effects and a great story.
All this has is some great effects, story is non existant and I get bored watching endless scenes of "Matrix Kung Fu".
As for the connection of movies, the only approriate response at the end I could think of was a 1 finger salute.
And yes I can judge it. The few, very few bits of story needed to carry forward could have been taken care of in the first 10 mins (at most) of the next movie.
It was bad, plain bad. The only thing I can think of is that they had enough material for 2.2 movies . So they created this one in the middle to stretch it out until the 3rd one comes out, which I understand will be in Nov this year.
I was awful, bad pointless and boring not quite as boring as AI but boring. Unfortunatly for AI I sitting next to a close friend of Spielburg so it wasn't appropriate to walk out.
This was not that bad and not that long but it was bad, real bad
I like most other people loved the first movie, it had great action, great special effects and a great story.
All this has is some great effects, story is non existant and I get bored watching endless scenes of "Matrix Kung Fu".
As for the connection of movies, the only approriate response at the end I could think of was a 1 finger salute.
And yes I can judge it. The few, very few bits of story needed to carry forward could have been taken care of in the first 10 mins (at most) of the next movie.
It was bad, plain bad. The only thing I can think of is that they had enough material for 2.2 movies . So they created this one in the middle to stretch it out until the 3rd one comes out, which I understand will be in Nov this year.
I was awful, bad pointless and boring not quite as boring as AI but boring. Unfortunatly for AI I sitting next to a close friend of Spielburg so it wasn't appropriate to walk out.
This was not that bad and not that long but it was bad, real bad
Obviously this must be rhetorical, cause I posted my review as like the 3rd post in this thread...
I'm not saying it's awful, I'm just this is basically a 5 hour movie. If you watched the 10 Commandments for only 2 hours, and it said "to be concluded"...I think you'd feel the same way about the story.
Not saying this is the 10 Commandments or anything, just trying to point out that 2 and 3 are more like one big movie.
Mike
OP
OP
Yeah - we've watched this movie. Now we can enjoy a 6 month intermission before the end.
Shawn
Shawn
I understood you completely. I also understand your point that this is part of total movie. I still paid for it and I expect to see a movie.
This was just bad, maybe the next one will be good but this was not.
My point was that there was about only 30 mins of worthwhile moive in this debarcle. At a push that could have been added to the next movie and probably only needed 10-15 anyway.
We had a 15+ car chase with two neat dudes who we have no idea what there are doing.
The Matrix Kung Fu" was much weaker in this, either they did not practice as much prior to the movie or spent less time doing multiple takes.
Did you notice the bad CGI animation of Neo in the scene with Smiths. His face was a pretty low res rendering.
We had the long version of the tribal rave party, I'll leave out some the demographic comments I've since seen in other reviews to prevent accusation of not being PC. Oh why not, didn't the ethnic balence of the dance party seem a little off to you? Let's not talk about how long it went on.
I checked my watch early in the movie (not a good sign at all), after 30 min nothing of significance had happened and I think it was another 10-15 before something did.
About the flashbacks and how the movie was released a few months late. Brighteyes (who is working on several movie projects as a producer) tells me that cuts like those are sometimes made in post production to try and "save" a movie that bombed with focus groups.
I was being retorical, sorry.
This was just bad, maybe the next one will be good but this was not.
My point was that there was about only 30 mins of worthwhile moive in this debarcle. At a push that could have been added to the next movie and probably only needed 10-15 anyway.
We had a 15+ car chase with two neat dudes who we have no idea what there are doing.
The Matrix Kung Fu" was much weaker in this, either they did not practice as much prior to the movie or spent less time doing multiple takes.
Did you notice the bad CGI animation of Neo in the scene with Smiths. His face was a pretty low res rendering.
We had the long version of the tribal rave party, I'll leave out some the demographic comments I've since seen in other reviews to prevent accusation of not being PC. Oh why not, didn't the ethnic balence of the dance party seem a little off to you? Let's not talk about how long it went on.
I checked my watch early in the movie (not a good sign at all), after 30 min nothing of significance had happened and I think it was another 10-15 before something did.
About the flashbacks and how the movie was released a few months late. Brighteyes (who is working on several movie projects as a producer) tells me that cuts like those are sometimes made in post production to try and "save" a movie that bombed with focus groups.
I was being retorical, sorry.
Dan H
ASFN Addict
My answer to your question, Alan:
Well shoot, I want to make the text the same color as the background to avoid ruining it for anyone.
Well shoot, I want to make the text the same color as the background to avoid ruining it for anyone.
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Suns_fan69
Official ASFN Lurker
I saw the movie last night as well and truth be told, I was a little underwhelmed. I think I was a victim of the hype as I truly expected another groundbreaking film in the same vein as the first but it just didn't have the same effect. That's not to say that it's not a good film in it's own right, because it is, but it was missing something.
I think many factors contributed to this; 1, the movie did not feel like it had a standard plot (IE Introduction, build up, climax, brief resolution) 2, the pacing was a little bit off (it was either full blazing action or slowed down discussion about free will vs determination) and lastly 3, the main plot revealing scenes were very difficult to follow.
I wanted to address these points individually in further detail but unfortunately I don't have the time right now, but i'll chime in tomorrow morning.
I think many factors contributed to this; 1, the movie did not feel like it had a standard plot (IE Introduction, build up, climax, brief resolution) 2, the pacing was a little bit off (it was either full blazing action or slowed down discussion about free will vs determination) and lastly 3, the main plot revealing scenes were very difficult to follow.
I wanted to address these points individually in further detail but unfortunately I don't have the time right now, but i'll chime in tomorrow morning.
I like your points...you are right, it was missed introductions, build up, climax, etc....that is exactly it...we just jumped right in, and were going, and it felt weird.
Mike
If you can call waiting 40 mins "jumped right in". Those cuts at the start wre done by the editor in an attempt to stave off boredom.
I enjoyed it
It certainly suprised me.
I really think they should have deleted the whole rave scene though, that was the worst.
Things I loved:
Monica Bellucci's character Persephone was really cool. She has to be one of the five sexiest women on earth. I loved the reference to mythology in both her character, and the werewolf bodyguards.
The guy that was her husband (I forget his name) was probably the coolest villian I have seen in a long time.
The suprise ending. I never, ever would have guessed that.
Morpheus became more interesting.
The freeway chase scene was probably the greatest chase scene in the history of action flicks.
The backdoors to the Matrix was neat.
Things I hated:
The rave scene. It was boring. It wasn't very sensual. I understand the purpose of it, I just didn't like the execution.
The fight between Neo and the Guardian of the Oracle seemed forced. It went on a bit too long and I thought the guy was a bit too competent against "The One"
Agent Smith's ability to replicate not explained enough.
Where was Tank??? I really liked him in the first movie.
The movie dragged a bit more than any top action/sci-fi should
All in all I would say it was a B+ movie. It certainly could have been streamlined a bit. I will see it again for sure and I look forward to the conclusion.
I enjoy movies that leave me wanting more.
It certainly suprised me.
I really think they should have deleted the whole rave scene though, that was the worst.
Things I loved:
Monica Bellucci's character Persephone was really cool. She has to be one of the five sexiest women on earth. I loved the reference to mythology in both her character, and the werewolf bodyguards.
The guy that was her husband (I forget his name) was probably the coolest villian I have seen in a long time.
The suprise ending. I never, ever would have guessed that.
Morpheus became more interesting.
The freeway chase scene was probably the greatest chase scene in the history of action flicks.
The backdoors to the Matrix was neat.
Things I hated:
The rave scene. It was boring. It wasn't very sensual. I understand the purpose of it, I just didn't like the execution.
The fight between Neo and the Guardian of the Oracle seemed forced. It went on a bit too long and I thought the guy was a bit too competent against "The One"
Agent Smith's ability to replicate not explained enough.
Where was Tank??? I really liked him in the first movie.
The movie dragged a bit more than any top action/sci-fi should
All in all I would say it was a B+ movie. It certainly could have been streamlined a bit. I will see it again for sure and I look forward to the conclusion.
I enjoy movies that leave me wanting more.
That's the point, it left us all wanting more or in this case less.
Yes the chase seen was neat as were the dreadlock guys but 15+ mins get real after a while it gets repetative.
Agents Smith like many other things in this wern't explained at at. In a Sci Fi story (at least a good one) you don't just make stuff up, it has to be consistent with the story. The didn't explain Smith's ability or even what he was doing. While we are talking about Smith, why didn't Neo just pull the Superman bit at the start of the fight. Did you notice the low res CGI Neo doing the arial soinning.
Backdoors were neat, agreed.
The guy could have been maybe wu ll become a neat villan. In this movie all he did was get his guys trashed by Neo in yet another never ending 'Matrix Kung Fu" scene.
Rave scene was pointless and long.
I was already disapointed by this movie but as I've said all I could do was give the "finger" to the credits to express by anoyance with the ending. I mean who is that guy, what is he doing.
I can deal with something not fully explaing until M3 but this had a raft of things, many of which I suspect are not in the next movie but were just put in this for want of a better idea.
I mean what was the melodrame with Link's wife all about, why waste screen time with that it doesn't add to the story.
Yes the chase seen was neat as were the dreadlock guys but 15+ mins get real after a while it gets repetative.
Agents Smith like many other things in this wern't explained at at. In a Sci Fi story (at least a good one) you don't just make stuff up, it has to be consistent with the story. The didn't explain Smith's ability or even what he was doing. While we are talking about Smith, why didn't Neo just pull the Superman bit at the start of the fight. Did you notice the low res CGI Neo doing the arial soinning.
Backdoors were neat, agreed.
The guy could have been maybe wu ll become a neat villan. In this movie all he did was get his guys trashed by Neo in yet another never ending 'Matrix Kung Fu" scene.
Rave scene was pointless and long.
I was already disapointed by this movie but as I've said all I could do was give the "finger" to the credits to express by anoyance with the ending. I mean who is that guy, what is he doing.
I can deal with something not fully explaing until M3 but this had a raft of things, many of which I suspect are not in the next movie but were just put in this for want of a better idea.
I mean what was the melodrame with Link's wife all about, why waste screen time with that it doesn't add to the story.
Here is a good question
Has Agent Smith become that which he despises? IE a virus?
Does the end of the movie mean that they are still in the Matrix, that there are levels?
Neo effecting the Machines and Agent Smith "infecting" a human seems to suggest that.
Has Agent Smith become that which he despises? IE a virus?
Does the end of the movie mean that they are still in the Matrix, that there are levels?
Neo effecting the Machines and Agent Smith "infecting" a human seems to suggest that.
After much discussion today, we've pretty much agreed that Zion is part of the Matrix, and Neo is becoming the only person who really knows this.
Mike
Mike
Actually, for a pretty neat "take" on how things are, check out the third post down on this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=259687
I pretty much agree with most of it, and it's an interesting theory that the Oracle isn't really even good, she's just part of the path that leads Neo to the Architect, then the Source, which reboots the Matrix...
Mike
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=259687
I pretty much agree with most of it, and it's an interesting theory that the Oracle isn't really even good, she's just part of the path that leads Neo to the Architect, then the Source, which reboots the Matrix...
Mike
If that is the truth, then they really should have revealed it at the end. Would have been the perfect ending and I think it would have made the entire movie make a LOT more sense.
You have a point, it sure would have been a nice way to leave the theatre...heck, I think Nidan has some valid points...the story and pace were weak, I'll give him that.
Like I said though, it's like watching a 5 hour movie, and pausing it after 2.5 hours...of course nothing is going to be revealed yet, there is 2.5 hours to go!
Mike
OP
OP
I think the fact is that this theory about Zion being a part of the Matrix - just another program and not real - is just that - a theory. For me I was just speculating on it yesterday because that made the most sense to me.
But I still don't think it reveals anything. This movie threw out most of what we thought we knew about the Matrix from the first movie. I think the most that we can do is speculate - but we're not going to know everything fully perhaps until the end of Revolutions (is that synonmous with the reboot theory?).
I wouldn't go as far as saying that anything concrete has been revealed.
Yesterday, Mike, Chapling and I had about a 2 hours discussion or so about the points we agree upon which were:
1. The Oracle is a program and part of the Matrix. She is also the creater of Zion.
2. If Zion was created by the Oracle - then Zion must be a part of the Matrix and a program itself.
3. The Architect is a co-creater with the Oracle and that would make him a program as well.
4. Neo is able to affect the Matrix in a way that none of the other "Awakened" humas can (Morpheus, Trinity, etc) who have been unplugged. That leads to the idea that he draws his power from something independent of the Matrix which then leads me to believe that Neo, in whole or part - probably in part - is the only one independent of the Matrix and that's what he's discovering as we go along the movie.
Thinking about this further - that's probably the reason of the second movie - showing Neo's progression of understanding. He definitely has a better command of what he can do, but at the end we see further realization that he apparently can affect the machines "outside the Matrix" - if that's the reality we've been meant to believe given to us by the first movie.
I was asked yesterday why Neo - if he's not apart of the Matrix - would help to save Zion because it doesn't make sense if Zion is part of the Matrix. After giving some thought to it, I'd respond that since Neo does not fully understand who he is, he cannot fully realize what he is doing and the part he is playing. If he thinks Zion and all that it entails is reality then of course he's going to help defend because he doesn't fully understand.
Just my theories so far, but I do think that there are deeper levels to the Matrix that we've been shown so far. I've even refined my idea on this from yesterday. Even though I've been saying that those like Morhpeus, Trinity, Tank, etc. were programs, I might retract that a bit. They may be manifested in Zion as a program. The Oracle created Zion so Zion cannot be reality. That means those living in Zion - if they are real - are a further representation of that reality (ie. more programs). If that's true, then Morpheus could be real, which could mean that even though they think they are unplugged from the Matrix could mean that in fact they are still plugged in somewhere else.
If what the Oracle told Neo was true - that everything they see, etc. is a program, then it's also plausible that the fields of humans in the tubes was also an abstract manifestation of reality generated by the Oracle to represent what was going on. Unfortunately for them it means that when they unplugged from one part of the Matrix, they were still plugged in somewhere else because that was just an illusion.
Yeah - many levels
Shawn
Wow, this thread has really moved considering the movie’s only been out a couple of days.
I thought the movie was quite interesting in many ways, and I’m still absorbing it. I think there were definitely some scenes (most notably some of the more philosophical discussions) that were unnecessary, but I’ve come to believe they are setups for the last movie.
I think Monica is beautiful, but that dress made her ass look horrible.
There is no Tank for a reason. The actor who played him went seriously loopy (or maybe the Brothers did in regards to him). He wanted the Brothers to pay him the same amount of money that the ‘big’ actors got. When they refused, he suggested not getting paid at all, but would settle on a percentage of the gross (something that isn’t done but for the biggest actors). He would go to events of his own volition that the Brothers or the big actors went to and just injected himself into them.
Finally, I think, the brothers told him they don’t want him back and even had to pursue some legal action to keep him away. I got this from web surfing, interestingly from a site that worships this guy. It all seemed very warped.
I think this movie suffers from the ground breaking success of the first movie. That, and the unfair media and spectator build up, hurt the impressions of this movie. Of course the official movie critics aren’t going to like it. They never do for these types of movies (and I don’t mean sci-fi necessarily, I mean movies that are so attractive to the masses but aren’t ‘high art’), most notably the Star Wars franchise. I see many parallels with SW, especially the first trilogy.
I thought the fight scenes were very cool. More than that though, I really appreciated Neo’s demeanor in the Matrix. He has transformed himself into every bit of the hero. He knows he can do whatever, despite the odds. Very cool.
I also liked the interaction between him and Trinity. I found their interplay very real and meaningful. I wish we could’ve seen more of Trinity though.
Morpheus, who’s been relegated to the traditional ‘general’ for the hero he found, got some very meaningful minutes. Gotta love kick ass sword play.
I thought the twins were probably the most disappointing aspect of the movie. I suppose they could be back, but why?
As to the ending, or rather WHERE the ending stopped. I saw many parallels to Empire Strikes Back. They are hurt, they’ve been defeated of sorts, it is a dark time. All illusions have been shattered. They are on the run, a ship picks them up. I don’t have a problem with how the story ended. It doesn’t have to be so spectacularly cliff-hangerish. It is, after all, half of a 5 hour movie. They’ve said as such. In fact, they wanted to release both at the same time but just couldn’t do it.
Now, what’s up with the Matrix and Zion. I really want to watch again and really soak up the conversations (especially with the Architect), but I think I understand what’s going on. Them being in the ‘real world’, as well as Zion, is still the Matrix. It is yet another layer that we couldn’t have thought of before. I thought it was very intriguing that this whole thing has been played out 5 other times. There were many inferences to Neo being better than the rest.
There is also evidence to support this contention. The most obvious is Neo stopping the Squiddies. I remember another one though: Smith leaving the ‘Matrix’ for the ‘real world’.
There is also something different that the Architect saw as a problem (or perhaps ‘the’ problem). Love. It wasn’t a factor before and it is what led Neo to choose the different door. So, in fact, Neo is the One (of Ones).
They kept emphasizing that everyone had a role to play, like a story (which it seems this is, over and over). This would suggest that even the Oracle is on the other side and ‘playing out her part’, as someone else brought up. I wonder if Neo was truly onto her though, based on his reservations.
Makes you wonder what the REAL real world looks like. It also makes you wonder what the REAL history of the Matrix is (did humans really ‘scorch the sky’?). Definitely a lot to digest.
I had hoped for an imagination boost from this movie as I did from the first one. I don’t think that has happened. However, I can live with what I have unexpectedly received. Plots and plot movements, timing on when to reveal plot points, that sort of thing.
EDIT: I forgot something. The whole Smith thing is intriguing, and I will readily admit to not having a clue. However, I am getting the feeling that they are going to somehow have Smith fight on the good-guy's side when all is said and done. Hell, he might not even be an agent, and more closely associated with the One than the Matrix.
I thought the movie was quite interesting in many ways, and I’m still absorbing it. I think there were definitely some scenes (most notably some of the more philosophical discussions) that were unnecessary, but I’ve come to believe they are setups for the last movie.
I think Monica is beautiful, but that dress made her ass look horrible.
There is no Tank for a reason. The actor who played him went seriously loopy (or maybe the Brothers did in regards to him). He wanted the Brothers to pay him the same amount of money that the ‘big’ actors got. When they refused, he suggested not getting paid at all, but would settle on a percentage of the gross (something that isn’t done but for the biggest actors). He would go to events of his own volition that the Brothers or the big actors went to and just injected himself into them.
Finally, I think, the brothers told him they don’t want him back and even had to pursue some legal action to keep him away. I got this from web surfing, interestingly from a site that worships this guy. It all seemed very warped.
I think this movie suffers from the ground breaking success of the first movie. That, and the unfair media and spectator build up, hurt the impressions of this movie. Of course the official movie critics aren’t going to like it. They never do for these types of movies (and I don’t mean sci-fi necessarily, I mean movies that are so attractive to the masses but aren’t ‘high art’), most notably the Star Wars franchise. I see many parallels with SW, especially the first trilogy.
I thought the fight scenes were very cool. More than that though, I really appreciated Neo’s demeanor in the Matrix. He has transformed himself into every bit of the hero. He knows he can do whatever, despite the odds. Very cool.
I also liked the interaction between him and Trinity. I found their interplay very real and meaningful. I wish we could’ve seen more of Trinity though.
Morpheus, who’s been relegated to the traditional ‘general’ for the hero he found, got some very meaningful minutes. Gotta love kick ass sword play.
I thought the twins were probably the most disappointing aspect of the movie. I suppose they could be back, but why?
As to the ending, or rather WHERE the ending stopped. I saw many parallels to Empire Strikes Back. They are hurt, they’ve been defeated of sorts, it is a dark time. All illusions have been shattered. They are on the run, a ship picks them up. I don’t have a problem with how the story ended. It doesn’t have to be so spectacularly cliff-hangerish. It is, after all, half of a 5 hour movie. They’ve said as such. In fact, they wanted to release both at the same time but just couldn’t do it.
Now, what’s up with the Matrix and Zion. I really want to watch again and really soak up the conversations (especially with the Architect), but I think I understand what’s going on. Them being in the ‘real world’, as well as Zion, is still the Matrix. It is yet another layer that we couldn’t have thought of before. I thought it was very intriguing that this whole thing has been played out 5 other times. There were many inferences to Neo being better than the rest.
There is also evidence to support this contention. The most obvious is Neo stopping the Squiddies. I remember another one though: Smith leaving the ‘Matrix’ for the ‘real world’.
There is also something different that the Architect saw as a problem (or perhaps ‘the’ problem). Love. It wasn’t a factor before and it is what led Neo to choose the different door. So, in fact, Neo is the One (of Ones).
They kept emphasizing that everyone had a role to play, like a story (which it seems this is, over and over). This would suggest that even the Oracle is on the other side and ‘playing out her part’, as someone else brought up. I wonder if Neo was truly onto her though, based on his reservations.
Makes you wonder what the REAL real world looks like. It also makes you wonder what the REAL history of the Matrix is (did humans really ‘scorch the sky’?). Definitely a lot to digest.
I had hoped for an imagination boost from this movie as I did from the first one. I don’t think that has happened. However, I can live with what I have unexpectedly received. Plots and plot movements, timing on when to reveal plot points, that sort of thing.
EDIT: I forgot something. The whole Smith thing is intriguing, and I will readily admit to not having a clue. However, I am getting the feeling that they are going to somehow have Smith fight on the good-guy's side when all is said and done. Hell, he might not even be an agent, and more closely associated with the One than the Matrix.
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Chaz
observationist
I really enjoyed this movie.
There were definatly some slow spots but considering this is a part 2 of 3 it was understandable.
Mostly the movie has been throughly discussed in this thread.
If you don't like martial arts movies you will be bored with large sections of this movie. The digital rendering reminded me of Blade2 but the transitions were better. I thought most of the choregraphy was well concieved and was state of the art even if the digial effects were obivious. (Blade2 used more dark scenes to hide the rendered aspects if I remember correctly, Reloaded did not have this crutch to lean on in the Smith's v Neo scene).
I really liked the whole "what is the matrix" aspect and going deeper in the making and origins of it.
If you like Kung-fu meets Star Wars go see it.
I give it 4 out of 5.
I rarely go to the movies at all but I may go see it again.
There were definatly some slow spots but considering this is a part 2 of 3 it was understandable.
Mostly the movie has been throughly discussed in this thread.
If you don't like martial arts movies you will be bored with large sections of this movie. The digital rendering reminded me of Blade2 but the transitions were better. I thought most of the choregraphy was well concieved and was state of the art even if the digial effects were obivious. (Blade2 used more dark scenes to hide the rendered aspects if I remember correctly, Reloaded did not have this crutch to lean on in the Smith's v Neo scene).
I really liked the whole "what is the matrix" aspect and going deeper in the making and origins of it.
If you like Kung-fu meets Star Wars go see it.
I give it 4 out of 5.
I rarely go to the movies at all but I may go see it again.
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