Mavericks @ Suns Monday (Christmas Night) game thread 12-25-2023

[Phrazbit]

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Golden State never needed him, Westbrook and Harden both played their best once apart from him.

It's a bad look.

I hope that he is reading all this with some level of self awareness, but I kinda doubt it, the guy has never been able to take a shred of criticism.

 

[Lorenzo]

I casually followed the score until the start of the fourth quarter, when I turned on the television, so I saw the same meltdown everyone else did. It's just sad.

I had a thought, which I suppose is obvious, but for what it's worth: Since Booker is the only player who's been on the team for more than a year, he's the only one with any connection to the Suns' history. It isn't just that he's the only one who played in the 2021 Finals or suffered the Game 7 Mavericks blowout, but that he's the only one with any reason to care. For all the rest of these guys, the Suns were just another team that didn't win the last few years.

So you put them all together, and where is their passion supposed to come from? They aren't joining the "team" that had that recent history, because that team no longer exists. New coaching staff, new owner, only one returning player -- heck, even Al McCoy is gone. This roster is the "Phoenix Suns" because that's who's paying them, but there's nothing for them to have joined. It's just a random collection of players who have nothing to do with Phoenix or with one another.

The fans feel the connection, because nearly all of us were here for 2021 and 2022, and it doesn't feel that long ago. It was only 20 months ago that the Suns were the reigning Western Conference Champions and had the best record in the league by eight games. The expectations for this season were based as much on that history as they were on the roster. For us, it feels like yesterday, an opportunity that we weren't quite able to seize, but one that still has to be in reach -- doesn't it? But that history is irrelevant when there's only a single person in uniform who experienced it.

Basically you have Booker and a bunch of strangers trying to build a brand new Phoenix Suns team that, by dumb luck, is better than the last one. It wasn't an impossible dream, but expecting the players to believe in the quest was naive. For the most part, they don't know Booker, they don't know each other, and only a few of them have ever been relevant contributors to a contender. It's almost like an expansion franchise.

As a dallas fan I kind of went through this in the mid 2000's when dallas had meltdowns and blew up most of their team. It sucked because they had so many quality players that they gave up on including Nash. The most important thing for the Suns is don't give up on Booker. He is their future and they need to keep building around him. The disturbing thing for me is how KD played tonight. They need KD to be the guy that they traded for.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I casually followed the score until the start of the fourth quarter, when I turned on the television, so I saw the same meltdown everyone else did. It's just sad.

I had a thought, which I suppose is obvious, but for what it's worth: Since Booker is the only player who's been on the team for more than a year, he's the only one with any connection to the Suns' history. It isn't just that he's the only one who played in the 2021 Finals or suffered the Game 7 Mavericks blowout, but that he's the only one with any reason to care. For all the rest of these guys, the Suns were just another team that didn't win the last few years.

So you put them all together, and where is their passion supposed to come from? They aren't joining the "team" that had that recent history, because that team no longer exists. New coaching staff, new owner, only one returning player -- heck, even Al McCoy is gone. This roster is the "Phoenix Suns" because that's who's paying them, but there's nothing for them to have joined. It's just a random collection of players who have nothing to do with Phoenix or with one another.

The fans feel the connection, because nearly all of us were here for 2021 and 2022, and it doesn't feel that long ago. It was only 20 months ago that the Suns were the reigning Western Conference Champions and had the best record in the league by eight games. The expectations for this season were based as much on that history as they were on the roster. For us, it feels like yesterday, an opportunity that we weren't quite able to seize, but one that still has to be in reach -- doesn't it? But that history is irrelevant when there's only a single person in uniform who experienced it.

Basically you have Booker and a bunch of strangers trying to build a brand new Phoenix Suns team that, by dumb luck, is better than the last one. It wasn't an impossible dream, but expecting the players to believe in the quest was naive. For the most part, they don't know Booker, they don't know each other, and only a few of them have ever been relevant contributors to a contender. It's almost like an expansion franchise.

I get what you’re saying, but it’s not like this hasn’t been done before. The Lebron taking my talents to Miami team was a better version of what they did here. And these guys all know each other. Particularly the guys who have been in the L a long while.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This team sucks

 

[wagon mound 464]

It seems every game we lose we get down by 10 in the first, fight to get it back late in the 3rd then just blow it in the fourth.

Rinse, wash, repeat…

I read all 22 pages so far, and had to go back to page 4 to quote this post defining my thought. In the 4th with 6 minutes remaining, Suns were up by 2,
and then the ass-whooping, collapse by the Suns was back to the regular script.
Thank God for Allen and Metu last night as there wasn't any other bright spots. Other than Metu off the bench, the others were only good for 9 pts total.
Appears to be a long season ahead and will provide plenty of ******* in this forum.
I doubt that when Beal returns, if ever, that things will improve.....he'll be back to the injured status keeping the trainer's jobs secure.

Never believe pre-season predictions about the Suns being a strong contender for a title. Mavs, Nuggets, Lakers, Kings have the Suns figured out.

While not a Mavs fan, I found it entertaining watching Luka put up 50.

 

[Proximo]

It's absolute nonsense that neither KDB or Watanabe saw a minute in this game. Nonsense.

Um Watanabe has been almost as bad as Bol. If anything is to be done with him it should be replacing him.

 

[BirdGangThing]

If Metu can consistently play even half as good as he played last night we could potentially have a decent taller line up

 

[AzCardsfan76]

I read all 22 pages so far, and had to go back to page 4 to quote this post defining my thought. In the 4th with 6 minutes remaining, Suns were up by 2,
and then the ass-whooping, collapse by the Suns was back to the regular script.
Thank God for Allen and Metu last night as there wasn't any other bright spots. Other than Metu off the bench, the others were only good for 9 pts total.
Appears to be a long season ahead and will provide plenty of ******* in this forum.
I doubt that when Beal returns, if ever, that things will improve.....he'll be back to the injured status keeping the trainer's jobs secure.

Never believe pre-season predictions about the Suns being a strong contender for a title. Mavs, Nuggets, Lakers, Kings have the Suns figured out.

While not a Mavs fan, I found it entertaining watching Luka put up 50.

It’s like a bad sitcom that has the same storyline every episode. It’s hard to watch….

 

[elindholm]

I get what you’re saying, but it’s not like this hasn’t been done before. The Lebron taking my talents to Miami team was a better version of what they did here.

That's true, I forgot about them. I guess the conclusion would be that James is a better leader than Durant -- or, at the very least, that James a decade ago was a better leader than Durant is now.

 

[taz02]

So much for the theory we just needed guys other than Book and KD to step up. Seems like nothing is going right for this team.

Biggest concern for me in this game was was Bookers play. This has to be the biggest game of the season and he didn't step up.

 

[DJ Tabooh]

So much for the theory we just needed guys other than Book and KD to step up. Seems like nothing is going right for this team.

Biggest concern for me in this game was was Bookers play. This has to be the biggest game of the season and he didn't step up.

Yupp. This team isn’t going anywhere. There’s no heart or desire to fight when things get difficult. We’ve let 2 guys get 50 on our home court the last 5 home games….that just can’t happen.

We made the run in the second half just to blow it again in the fourth quarter. So frustrating.

 

[Hoop Head]

I get what you’re saying, but it’s not like this hasn’t been done before. The Lebron taking my talents to Miami team was a better version of what they did here. And these guys all know each other. Particularly the guys who have been in the L a long while.

Miami won a title like 5 years before LeBron. Wade was a champion in his prime. They had a coach in place already who was established in Spoelstra and they had Chalmers and Joel Anthony also returning, their starting PG and C, which means with Wade that's 60% of their starting 5. They had a couple of returning bench pieces, including our current GM, and most importantly had a defined culture built further back by their GM, Pat Riley.

Other than having 3 stars I don't see the similarities to the Suns and the 2010-11 Heat. We don't even have our 3 stars through 35% of the season. It's not worth addressing how differently our stars came together either vs the Heatles.

 

[Yuma]

I casually followed the score until the start of the fourth quarter, when I turned on the television, so I saw the same meltdown everyone else did. It's just sad.

I had a thought, which I suppose is obvious, but for what it's worth: Since Booker is the only player who's been on the team for more than a year, he's the only one with any connection to the Suns' history. It isn't just that he's the only one who played in the 2021 Finals or suffered the Game 7 Mavericks blowout, but that he's the only one with any reason to care. For all the rest of these guys, the Suns were just another team that didn't win the last few years.

So you put them all together, and where is their passion supposed to come from? They aren't joining the "team" that had that recent history, because that team no longer exists. New coaching staff, new owner, only one returning player -- heck, even Al McCoy is gone. This roster is the "Phoenix Suns" because that's who's paying them, but there's nothing for them to have joined. It's just a random collection of players who have nothing to do with Phoenix or with one another.

The fans feel the connection, because nearly all of us were here for 2021 and 2022, and it doesn't feel that long ago. It was only 20 months ago that the Suns were the reigning Western Conference Champions and had the best record in the league by eight games. The expectations for this season were based as much on that history as they were on the roster. For us, it feels like yesterday, an opportunity that we weren't quite able to seize, but one that still has to be in reach -- doesn't it? But that history is irrelevant when there's only a single person in uniform who experienced it.

Basically you have Booker and a bunch of strangers trying to build a brand new Phoenix Suns team that, by dumb luck, is better than the last one. It wasn't an impossible dream, but expecting the players to believe in the quest was naive. For the most part, they don't know Booker, they don't know each other, and only a few of them have ever been relevant contributors to a contender. It's almost like an expansion franchise.

Exactly! 100%. That's why the pushing of this game as a rivalry was stupid. No one was there when the Suns last played Dallas. Why would ANY of these guys care?

I don't know the answer to how you bring outside people with different agendas together for a cohesive effort like this. They all say they wanted an opportunity at winning a Championship. How far are they willing to go to achieve this?

I also thought of one of my son's soccer teams he was on. Each guy was talented at their positions and had won accolades for their play. All star games, mentions in magazines, etc. They should have wiped the ground with every team they played. The problem is they knew they were good, and they knew they had good scorers on the team. So they expected to just win on skill alone. The rare times they actually worked harder than their opponents they would blow them out! Then they would get big heads and just try and outskill the opponents again. The effort has to be there. Yes skill will set you apart only if you work as hard or harder then your opponents. Even then, it's no guarantee.

I just don't see that hustle and effort consistently. There are some games where we squeaked by for the win where guys hit the floors for the loose balls, etc. It's not an every game occurrence. The fourth quarters are especially bad with how teams are outplaying us.

 

[Hoop Head]

Exactly! 100%. That's why the pushing of this game as a rivalry was stupid. No one was there when the Suns last played Dallas. Why would ANY of these guys care?

I don't know the answer to how you bring outside people with different agendas together for a cohesive effort like this. They all say they wanted an opportunity at winning a Championship. How far are they willing to go to achieve this.

Thats part of the reason it was dumb and shortsighted to cast off so many fringe rotation players for others. Keeping guys like Torrey Craig, Cam Payne, Biyombo, etc would have helped shown the newcomers there was an established culture and tone here. It doesn't matter if they'd have been on the bench and new guys were ahead of them in the rotation. In fact being ahead of the returning guys might have helped some realize they were getting an opportunity and perhaps built their confidence some. The returning folk were all professionals and happy to be here, never griping about playing time or touches publicly before so I doubt that would have become an issue.

This was a half hearted attempt to build a contender on the fly and it may be early still but it's proven to be a failure. The big question is what's next. The longer they wait to answer that the longer we'll continue to be embarrassed by this sorry squad of weak mercenaries.

 

[Dr. Jones]

This team sucks

Atrocious

 

[hcsilla]

Thats part of the reason it was dumb and shortsighted to cast off so many fringe rotation players for others. Keeping guys like Torrey Craig, Cam Payne, Biyombo, etc would have helped shown the newcomers there was an established culture and tone here. It doesn't matter if they'd have been on the bench and new guys were ahead of them in the rotation. In fact being ahead of the returning guys might have helped some realize they were getting an opportunity and perhaps built their confidence some.

Yes, I never really understood what was the point of letting Biyombo go. Maybe it was a sophisticated consideration that his roster spot was saved since Azubuike more or less can re-produce Biyombo while being only a 2-way contract.
Problem is that this might be not true and continouity would have been more important than playing with roster spots.

 

[Hoop Head]

Yes, I never really understood what was the point of letting Biyombo go. Maybe it was a sophisticated consideration that his roster spot was saved since Azubuike more or less can re-produce Biyombo while being only a 2-way contract.
Problem is that this might be not true and continouity would have been more important than playing with roster spots.

Bizzy isn't lighting up the stat sheet in Memphis but he has started 20 of 22 game's there averaging 6 and 6 with 1 block a game in 24 minutes a night. We could definitely use him to compete with Nurkic or give us a different look since he's more of a paint deterrent due to his ability to block shots.

We had his early bird rights also so real head scratcher why we didn't bring him back since he didn't retire, as some thought he might. He's the exact sort of vet you want as a 3rd stringer as a high character guy, has a wealth of experience, not trying to earn a big payday, and can step up when needed.

 

[Yuma]

Thats part of the reason it was dumb and shortsighted to cast off so many fringe rotation players for others. Keeping guys like Torrey Craig, Cam Payne, Biyombo, etc would have helped shown the newcomers there was an established culture and tone here. It doesn't matter if they'd have been on the bench and new guys were ahead of them in the rotation. In fact being ahead of the returning guys might have helped some realize they were getting an opportunity and perhaps built their confidence some. The returning folk were all professionals and happy to be here, never griping about playing time or touches publicly before so I doubt that would have become an issue.

This was a half hearted attempt to build a contender on the fly and it may be early still but it's proven to be a failure. The big question is what's next. The longer they wait to answer that the longer we'll continue to be embarrassed by this sorry squad of weak mercenaries.

I Wrote it off as a new owner and new coach wanting to start fresh. We didn't keep Monty, which would have made a lot of sense to keep his guys. We are supposedly starting a whole new system, and I say supposedly with great emphasis. So the old guys would have had to learn it also. This Kevin Young part of the equation is making zero sense. We are statistically one of the least attempts at shooting threes, and a high turn over squad. The offense is not working!

 

[nashman]

I Wrote it off as a new owner and new coach wanting to start fresh. We didn't keep Monty, which would have made a lot of sense to keep his guys. We are supposedly starting a whole new system, and I say supposedly with great emphasis. So the old guys would have had to learn it also. This Kevin Young part of the equation is making zero sense. We are statistically one of the least attempts at shooting threes, and a high turn over squad. The offense is not working!

Agreed they need to establish a real offensive system, so far looks like a pickup game! Really doing Book a disservice by forcing him into playmaker role rather than a star SG! Durant needs to get to together and stop making lazy dumb passes and turning the ball over like crazy! Giving up momentum and to many points with careless play!

 

[Hoop Head]

I Wrote it off as a new owner and new coach wanting to start fresh. We didn't keep Monty, which would have made a lot of sense to keep his guys. We are supposedly starting a whole new system, and I say supposedly with great emphasis. So the old guys would have had to learn it also. This Kevin Young part of the equation is making zero sense. We are statistically one of the least attempts at shooting threes, and a high turn over squad. The offense is not working!

What team has decided to start fresh as far replacing essentially all but 1 player and been a legit contender? I can't think of one.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't want to see a Suns coach smiling after losses like this.

Everyone should be questioning themselves and not be comfortable with what is happening.

I'm also getting tired of the long season excuse. I doubt Mike Malone of the Nuggets would be talking this way.

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[Cheesebeef]

What team has decided to start fresh as far replacing essentially all but 1 player and been a legit contender? I can't think of one.

The 2008 Celtics are the closest non-LeBron example. They were a lottery team built around Paul Pierce who then surrounded him with KG, Allen, Perkins, Eddie House, James Posey and PJ Brown. They had Rondo in his second year, but he was still super rough on the court. But that was pretty much a full new mixture of players coming to what was a mediocre to bad club who put it all together in one season.

And the Heat were basically the same thing. The 2019-2020 Lakers essentially replaced everyone from 2018-2019 except LeBron. The 2015 Cavs who jettisoned their entire team except for Kyrie when they got LeBron/Love.

Common denominator for three of those teams was peak LeBron, which can’t be reproduced with any other player, but in every situation, he and one other star joined another star on teams that the previous year were either mediocre (Heat), bad (Lakers) Or awful (Cavs) and instantly transformed those teams into either winning titles or at least getting to the Finals.

 

[hcsilla]

I don't want to see a Suns coach smiling after losses like this.

Everyone should be questioning themselves and not be comfortable with what is happening.

I'm also getting tired of the long season excuse. I doubt Mike Malone of the Nuggets would be talking this way.

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It's wonderful to see how relaxed Vogel is and how great time he is having.

 

[mjb21aztd]

I don't want to see a Suns coach smiling after losses like this.

Everyone should be questioning themselves and not be comfortable with what is happening.

I'm also getting tired of the long season excuse. I doubt Mike Malone of the Nuggets would be talking this way.

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Vogel looks like lenny from of mice and men no wonder kd wants him gone and book like wtf vog

 

[Yuma]

I don't want to see a Suns coach smiling after losses like this.

Everyone should be questioning themselves and not be comfortable with what is happening.

I'm also getting tired of the long season excuse. I doubt Mike Malone of the Nuggets would be talking this way.

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I have a buddy that's a Lakers fan. He said this guy is like Mr. Rogers in his press conferences. He said not to expect anything meaningful from them.