McCown's skills set better fit for Cards

[conraddobler]

Oh we agree there my question is how far can you go with such a QB?

I completely agree as I was typing my post when yours popped up.

That's it in a nutshell but that does beg the question, who's idea of that QB we want is going to win out?

I mean Graves first wanted Kordell then brought in Jeff Blake....

Later post DG we signed King and now Davey plus a Navarre is in the mix as a low round draft choice and finally Warner as a FA.

Gee, I may be dense but those aren't exactly obvious answers to that question and it scares me a little to think about how they think.

Somewhere in that whole equation we passed on Big Ben and I doubt we get anywhere near the Leinhart sweepstakes now so exactly what is Josh but a draft killer QB....

It would be easy for guys who want a solid drafted QB to start to dislike Josh because he keeps screwing it up.

 

[Russ Smith]

The Falcons have went to the Championship game with such a Qb...albeit a very good D. I thought we had such a D coming in this year....not yet we don;t but they played out of there mind in Mexico.

I don't know Vick has run for over 100 yards in a game 6 times already in his short career. Josh has a career high of 48, they're on totally different planes when it comes to running. I keep saying I think Vick would be a better RB than QB I really believe that. The reason the Falcons run the ball so well is two fold, the OL coach, and Vick.Teams constantly have to account for Vick and that's one less defender to defend the RB.

As athletic as Josh is nobody is going to assign a player to mirror Josh.

I agree the defense has been disappointing so far and with Davis and Rolle out for the year and Hayes still out and Macklin hurting, I'm concerned.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I don't know Vick has run for over 100 yards in a game 6 times already in his short career. Josh has a career high of 48, they're on totally different planes when it comes to running. I keep saying I think Vick would be a better RB than QB I really believe that. The reason the Falcons run the ball so well is two fold, the OL coach, and Vick.Teams constantly have to account for Vick and that's one less defender to defend the RB.

As athletic as Josh is nobody is going to assign a player to mirror Josh.

I agree the defense has been disappointing so far and with Davis and Rolle out for the year and Hayes still out and Macklin hurting, I'm concerned.

Oh man thank you Russ for stepping up right there. Someone used an analogy to compare McCown and Vick. Micheal Vick, right? WHAAAAT?

McCown had a good game ( i will refrain from saying great as he did miss three touchdown passes) and i think as he gets more comfortable, he will start to see more of those passes and complete them as well. Practice spped and game speed are not even close in similarity so he deserves the benefit of the doubt.

As many have stated ad nauseum, McCowns ability to scramble is what kept drives alive when the recievers were covered. As much as I have liked Warner early this year, those would have been sacks or throw aways with him, and Josh kept the drives going. I cant be sure wether the offensive line played better or if Josh is just that much better at avoiding the rush. Probaly a combination of both.

I'm all for letting McCown play until his play costs us a game. But once that happens, we should go to Davey. Unless Josh gets us in playoff contention, then Warner should start. If he plays VERY well then i'm all for him staying next season but otherwise i think its best we both part ways. Josh needs a fresh start and the Cardinals need the young stud QB that they have never had. I want Josh to play well but his ceiling is limited as teams like the Pats and Eagles will just eat him alive with their complex defenses.

I am excited for this Sunday if only to see if Josh's progression is real or percieved. The Panthers are a tough matchup and if Josh gets us a win, then he deserves all the accolades that go with it. That doesn't mean we should commit to him beyond this season however. Anyone remember what happened the last time we overreacted to a brash mobile QB who couldn't read defenses after he had a good season? Yeah me either.......

 

[Rats]

I don't know Vick has run for over 100 yards in a game 6 times already in his short career. Josh has a career high of 48, they're on totally different planes when it comes to running. I keep saying I think Vick would be a better RB than QB I really believe that. The reason the Falcons run the ball so well is two fold, the OL coach, and Vick.Teams constantly have to account for Vick and that's one less defender to defend the RB.

As athletic as Josh is nobody is going to assign a player to mirror Josh.

I agree the defense has been disappointing so far and with Davis and Rolle out for the year and Hayes still out and Macklin hurting, I'm concerned.

Yes they are on different planes but a running Qb is another weapon that a D has to account for. Josh runs well enough to be accounted for if he is allowed to run. Last year we did not see that. This year we saw it last game and it is a huge extra to have in a qb. These kind of assets can win you alot of games if your team is sound on both sides of the ball. That is yet to be seen for our team.

 

[Redsz]

In terms of running style, I would say he is comparable to McNabb, Culppepper and Jeff Garcia (in his younger days). He isn't as elusive as Vick, but he still very effective when he decides to take off.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yes they are on different planes but a running Qb is another weapon that a D has to account for. Josh runs well enough to be accounted for if he is allowed to run. Last year we did not see that. This year we saw it last game and it is a huge extra to have in a qb. These kind of assets can win you alot of games if your team is sound on both sides of the ball. That is yet to be seen for our team.

Agreed I commented last week that under Green, Josh wasnt' running enough. he kept a few drives alive by doing so, that was good to see.

He has to use what he brings to the table, if you're not going to look downfield consistently, at least take off and run when it's covered but the run is there.

Find a way to move the chains.

 

[Rats]

I have no problem with that but in order to do that he's going to have to play at a high level in several games not just one.

He may not be as smart as I'd want but if he could get used to the system enough to not miss a ton of wide open WR's I can live with it.

I still just don't see it happening though, I think management is scared of him for a good reason IMO.

He may plateu at simply above average not championship worthy. If I had to guess that's probably their opinion of him.

He's a kind of QB that makes you squirm, at least now he is, but you are right, he has a shot at least to shake off that label and it is in his own hands but he's going to have to produce superior numbers to change their minds IMO.

I think your right about this Conrad the one thing that has plagued Josh in the minds of the fans is that WE could have had Roth, We could have had Byron, and we got stuck with JOSH. They got the Apple and the Peach. We got the Lemon. Maybe we will get lemonade when it is all said and done. It is a good drink when it is 105 in the desert.

 

[Russ Smith]

In terms of running style, I would say he is comparable to McNabb, Culppepper and Jeff Garcia (in his younger days). He isn't as elusive as Vick, but he still very effective when he decides to take off.

Garcia definitely, maybe Culpepper, a young McNabb nearly rushed for 1000 yards one year though, Josh isn't going to come close to that. The main problem Josh has running is protection, of himself, and the ball.

The other thing I notice and I don't know if it's because he trusts Big, or just coincidence, he seems to almost always run left which makes it harder to throw on the run, and the way he carries the ball in one hand makes it that much easier to be separated from the ball? Pretty much everytime I see him play I notice that. Is it because the pressure is usually coming from his right?

 

[Rats]

Garcia definitely, maybe Culpepper, a young McNabb nearly rushed for 1000 yards one year though, Josh isn't going to come close to that. The main problem Josh has running is protection, of himself, and the ball.

The other thing I notice and I don't know if it's because he trusts Big, or just coincidence, he seems to almost always run left which makes it harder to throw on the run, and the way he carries the ball in one hand makes it that much easier to be separated from the ball? Pretty much everytime I see him play I notice that. Is it because the pressure is usually coming from his right?

He had a good run to the left for a first down in Mexico...he does need to be more aware of getting smacked though. He stands up sometimes when he should turtle. I would like to see more rollouts to the left but by and large those plays go for short yardage throws if the QB is righthanded. Big does well protecting the blindside, does terrible when there is more than one guy in his zone. I don't think that either Qb really ever trust anyone on the backside. Eventually they will pay....its just a law of averages.

 

[CardinalLaw]

In terms of running style, I would say he is comparable to McNabb, Culppepper and Jeff Garcia (in his younger days). He isn't as elusive as Vick, but he still very effective when he decides to take off.

Thats a very Bold statement. Iv'e never seen Josh make someone miss a tackle, he just runs in a straight line expecting defenders to get out of his way, when the LB sees this they just crush him.

Culpepper in his 1st year starting had 470 Yards, thats more then Josh will get in 4 years. Josh had 112 yards big difference, all this Josh has Legs I haven't seen it. McNabb has 300+ his 1st year, 600 the next. Garcia 231, 400+ his next.

Comparing Josh to any of these players is a shame on them.

Josh is more on a level Chad Pennington, Marc Bulger, Matt Hasselbeck but these guys take a slide. The guy has never even change directions once he starts going.

He isn't a good rusher at all.

 

[kerouac9]

Garcia definitely, maybe Culpepper, a young McNabb nearly rushed for 1000 yards one year though, Josh isn't going to come close to that. The main problem Josh has running is protection, of himself, and the ball.

The other thing I notice and I don't know if it's because he trusts Big, or just coincidence, he seems to almost always run left which makes it harder to throw on the run, and the way he carries the ball in one hand makes it that much easier to be separated from the ball? Pretty much everytime I see him play I notice that. Is it because the pressure is usually coming from his right?

Garcia did a much better job stepping up in the pocket, and he often used his mobility to buy time for the pass instead of running for yardage (which was usually up the middle, not to the sidelines). Josh still runs like a rookie QB, which is scrambling to the sideline after the first and maybe the second read isn't there. And McCown's ball security is much closer to Daunte Culpepper when he was fumbling 15 times a season than Garcia or McNabb, who know that there's a "tuck" part to "tuck it and run."

McNabb is doing a much better job of using his mobility to buy time instead of running, but that might be because the guy's body is pretty much entirely bruised and can't run upfield. He was doing a much better job of it last year, too, though.

I'm still not 100% certain that there's that much of a difference between McCown and Mike McMahon.

 

[CardinalLaw]

You know, I don't think that Josh will get the more intricate points of checking down or going thru progressions for one simple reason. If at the point he has to go to a 3rd read he has the ability to just take off and run with the ball. He really does not need more than two reads. If he can look off a saftey and throw undernieth to a back or take off and run then he is a better weapon than trying to go thru progressions. His problem last year is he didn't run and he paid for it. In the Mexico game he ran and it made life easier for him. Warner will always read Ds better than Josh...but Josh can do things that alot of Qbs can't with his legs and he is a tough Hombre. Thats why I have always liked his play. He needs to keep awareness when he runs but by all means run when things break down.

When the third read is a WIDE open reciever, then he needs to make that read. Like Boldin waving his arms in the Endzone, but lets not rush him or anything, lets get 2 reads down before we move onto 3.

 

[Redsz]

Thats a very Bold statement. Iv'e never seen Josh make someone miss a tackle, he just runs in a straight line till someone gets out of his was, when the LB sees this they just crush him.

Culpepper in his 1st year starting had 470 Yards, thats more then Josh will get in 4 years. Josh had 112 yards big difference, all this Josh has Legs I haven't seen it. McNabb has 300+ his 1st year, 600 the next. Garcia 231, 400+ his next.

Comparing Josh to any of these players is a shame on them.

Josh is more on a level Chad Pennington, Marc Bulger, Matt Hasselbeck but these guys take a slide. The guy has never even change directions once he starts going.

He isn't a good rusher at all.

That is complete and utter crap.

Rams game last year, we are in the 30 yd line of Rams half, Josh takes off running to the right, he stutter steps and the Rams DB/LB falls over. He takes the outside beats the other DB/LB with speed on the outside to score in the corner.

Chad Pennington, Marc Bulger and never Matt Hasselbeck ran a 4.5/4.4 (Culpepper and McNabb all ran very similar times at the combine) and it is ABSURD to even to even mention them in a comparison with Josh in terms of speed.

If you can't even be objective, I don't know why you bother posting on this subject.

 

[CardinalLaw]

That is complete and utter crap.

Rams game last year, we are in the 30 yd line of Rams half, Josh takes off running to the right, he stutter steps and the Rams DB/LB falls over. He takes the outside beats the other DB/LB with speed on the outside to score in the corner.

Chad Pennington, Marc Bulger and never Matt Hasselbeck ran a 4.5/4.4 (Culpepper and McNabb all ran very similar times at the combine) and it is ABSURD to even to even mention them in a comparison with Josh in terms of speed.

If you can't even be objective, I don't know why you bother posting on this subject.

Crap yeah right, if you don't want people to be objective about it dont compare the guy to the best Running QB's in the league. It doesn't matter that Josh ran 4.63 and the rest of the QB's were slower. The stats speak for themselve. Your comparing Josh McCown to Daunte Culpepper and McNabb. Neither of them run as much as they did when they came into the league, but still get way more yards rushing then Josh.

Pennington ran for 2 less times then Josh, Chad had 14 more yards. Josh ran 9 more times then Hassle Beck, Josh had 12 more yards. Josh ran 17 more times Bulger, Josh had 13 more yards. Your comparing the top 3 ranked rushing QB's to the 35 ranked rushing QB.

Ok so Josh made 2 people miss in his career on a run, McNabb and Culpepper make 10 people a game. They are not comparable. Josh is not elusive at all. That is a fact. Did you see Big Bens run against the Pats he made several people miss. He is somewhat elusive. Josh runs in a straight line.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Josh is more on a level Chad Pennington, Marc Bulger, Matt Hasselbeck but these guys take a slide. The guy has never even change directions once he starts going.

Except those guys are all great passers....

Culpepper is the best comparison to Josh in terms of speed, running style, and taking off when he did. I dont think its inconcievable that Josh gets 470 yards in a FULL season starting at all...

 

[Big D]

McCown's running ability is over rated. I think his pocket scrambling ability is pretty much negated by his fumbling affliction. He does what almost every QB does, runs when he has to. He's fast for a guy his size but that's about it. He's terrible throwing on the run. I actually saw Warner run for a couple first downs this year too, and he supossedly is the most immobile QB out there.

 

[CardinalLaw]

Josh is more on a level Chad Pennington, Marc Bulger, Matt Hasselbeck but these guys take a slide. The guy has never even change directions once he starts going.
Except those guys are all graet passers....

Culpepper is the best comparison to Josh in terms of speed, running style, and taking off when he did. I dont think its inconcievable that Josh gets 470 yards in a FULL season starting at all...

Yes if he runs 150+ times a season. He averaged 3 yards a carry. From what I've heard about Josh he is the greatest Rushing QB of all time, and he can dunk a basketball. From what my eyes have seen of Josh its completely different.

 

[Rats]

When the third read is a WIDE open reciever, then he needs to make that read. Like Boldin waving his arms in the Endzone, but lets not rush him or anything, lets get 2 reads down before we move onto 3.

Well if you watched that play and I have, the first read was TE, he was covered. Josh saw Johnson running open he overthrew him....it happens. Boldin is still the third read. Why would a Qb go to the third read if the second is wide open? They commented that Boldin was wide open. So was Johnson as the second read....I mean come on it is basic math CL.

 

[CardinalLaw]

Well if you watched that play and I have, the first read was TE, he was covered. Josh saw Johnson running open he overthrew him....it happens. Boldin is still the third read. Why would a Qb go to the third read if the second is wide open? They commented that Boldin was wide open. So was Johnson as the second read....I mean come on it is basic math CL.

Ok this is a problem that comes with Warner to, its called making-Johnson-a-read-atitis. I wish our QB's would always start with Boldin and Fitz then move on from there. But what do I know.

 

[kerouac9]

Well if you watched that play and I have, the first read was TE, he was covered. Josh saw Johnson running open he overthrew him....it happens. Boldin is still the third read. Why would a Qb go to the third read if the second is wide open? They commented that Boldin was wide open. So was Johnson as the second read....I mean come on it is basic math CL.

I guess that a good QB doesn't overthrow the wide open WR, though. It happens, but with Josh it seems to happen all the time, to an extent that it can't be as easily dismissed as you're seeming to do it.

After all, it happened all the time just one week before in the Seattle game.

 

[Rats]

I guess that a good QB doesn't overthrow the wide open WR, though. It happens, but with Josh it seems to happen all the time, to an extent that it can't be as easily dismissed as you're seeming to do it.

After all, it happened all the time just one week before in the Seattle game.

Kwhine it is known as timing. The week before Josh had not been practicing with the first team Kurt was. Josh didn't seem to overthrow that Fade last year against Buffalo to Johnson for a TD or the one to Fitz in the endzone, or countless others but you want to harp on a couple of meaningless passes. I am not dismissing anything except your take on this. What was the Qb rating this week? the completion percentage? Your all out of whine on this one KY.....

 

[CardLogic]

Ok this is a problem that comes with Warner to, its called making-Johnson-a-read-atitis. I wish our QB's would always start with Boldin and Fitz then move on from there. But what do I know.

Based on this post, not much... Just because they are without question the two best receivers, does not automatically make them the first two reads on every pass play. That just is not the way it works!

Then again, you know that, right?

Come on, you do, don't you???

 

[CardinalLaw]

Kwhine it is known as timing. The week before Josh had not been practicing with the first team Kurt was. Josh didn't seem to overthrow that Fade last year against Buffalo to Johnson for a TD or the one to Fitz in the endzone, or countless others but you want to harp on a couple of meaningless passes. I am not dismissing anything except your take on this. What was the Qb rating this week? the completion percentage? Your all out of whine on this one KY.....

He did it against CB's that were selling insurance and weren't even on the 9ers the week before according to G & A. That is pretty tuff to not even being in game shape, to go in and cover someone, let alone Fitz and Boldin. So lets just all hold off on the Josh Sucks/Josh Rocks arguement till we see what he an do against a real defense. So far Carlina has been pretty terrible on Passing Defense with a short week, so Josh should do well do you agree. Well lets find out.

 

[Rats]

He did it against CB's that were selling insurance and weren't even on the 9ers the week before according to G & A. That is pretty tuff to not even being in game shape, to go in and cover someone, let alone Fitz and Boldin. So lets just all hold off on the Josh Sucks/Josh Rocks arguement till we see what he an do against a real defense. So far Carlina has been pretty terrible on Passing Defense with a short week, so Josh should do well do you agree. Well lets find out.

I agree we should find out if he can string some games together. He has given himself something to build on and as Card fans we hope he does it and wins us some games.

 

[CardinalLaw]

Based on this post, not much... Just because they are without question the two best receivers, does not automatically make them the first two reads on every pass play. That just is not the way it works!

Then again, you know that, right?

Come on, you do, don't you???

Yeah only teams like Phili can do that with Westbrook and Owens. Those to were what 90% of the offense