MIN 30 ARI 24 Thoughts

[Russ Smith]

Russ, the pass to David Johnson was a short, crisp slant...1/3 of the distance of the out pass thrown in the direction of John Brown.

Yes but it was a timing pass. You said calling timing passes you don't deserve to win.

From the 9 yard line that's a TD if the guy doesn't get held.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Total BS! You can't blame BA but you can blame Palmer lol that's hilarious! His play calling has been down right awful and predictable all season, as soon as they line up you know if it's a running play or not. You can't blame Palmer for awful play calling, terrible protection, receivers who either run wrong routes, stop running, not catch balls that hit them in the hands... the list goes on! STs and Oline and questionable play calling are the 3 main factors in this team being a total disappointment. Palmer being a scapegoat for all the horseshit is ridiculous! Do you guys not freaking remember the cluster f&$@s between Warner and Palmer? Wake up he is not the reason this team is losing geeeesh!

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[Big D]

Why was DJ on the bench during a critical drive?? What point are you trying to prove?? Idiotic coaching.

 

[Cards_Campos]

There's a chain effect here...when BA refuses to give Palmer added protection...he is more prone to making mistakes. Palmer's red zone performance this year has been one of the major reasons why the team has lost 5 games. Cardpa makes a great point about BA and Palmer forcing red zone passes in to John Brown. It's been ill-advised and yet they keep doing it.

The dumbest thing Arians does and it makes no sense whatsoever..... Is he had no rbs in e back field during obvious pass plays..... Or even when we have 3rd and short.... teams know they can blitz or rush enough defenders to cause pressure.... Plus there is no threat of the c run or the RB helping on the blitz or rush. And that is complete arrogance on Arians. He has become buddy Ryan and Whisenhunt combined. Also our team has always let bad teams do what they can't do all year. We could make Ray Charles see and Marilyn Madson hear.

 

[TJ]

Not sure about losing credibility with the team, but I would bet big money that the officials hate Arians, due in large part to his constant criticism of them on and off the field. We have undoubtedly been victimized by lopsided calls for just about the entire season, and I would imagine that some of that has been compounded by Arians' behavior and attitude towards the officials.

I get that every head coach gets in every ref's ear, but Arians takes it to a level to which I've never seen in the professional ranks.

 

[TJ]

Why was DJ on the bench during a critical drive?? What point are you trying to prove?? Idiotic coaching.

I actually support Arians giving DJ a series off every now and again. During that drive, Ellington was moving the ball very well and the team has been wearing the tread off of DJ all season.

Heaven forbid, if something were to ever happen to DJ, this board would explode with people accusing the coaches of overworking him. The hypocrisy meter would not handle it.

 

[EndZone]

Positives:
* Peterson's holding penalty on the punt return. Sad that the most talented punt returner on the planet is on punt returns as a gunner blocker, unreal.

What exactly has PP21 done in...oh say the last couple years in punt returns beside fumble away the ball in the NFC Championship game? PP21 is all talk no game, say what you want about his "votes" its all a popularity contest. Dude can't back up his big ass mouth.

 

[Jetstream Green]

What exactly has PP21 done in...oh say the last couple years in punt returns beside fumble away the ball in the NFC Championship game? PP21 is all talk no game, say what you want about his "votes" its all a popularity contest. Dude can't back up his big ass mouth.

Uh, maybe because his job is being about as close to a shut down corner one can get in the modern NFL and his big ass mouth

 

[Cards_Campos]

What exactly has PP21 done in...oh say the last couple years in punt returns beside fumble away the ball in the NFC Championship game? PP21 is all talk no game, say what you want about his "votes" its all a popularity contest. Dude can't back up his big ass mouth.

Diggs had like 2 catches... our defense have up like 16 points ... Less if you consider all the BS penalties they called on the fg drive

 

[NJCardFan]

Toner looked to be the third best guard on the roster during Preseason. Still not playing even with all of the injuries.

I think BA has a serious problem with play in rookies. Just another area where his stubbornness is detrimental to the team.

Question: If we had drafted Dak Prescott, would BA have played him over Stanton when Palmer got hurt? My guess is no.

Also, this is how bad the offensive line was yesterday. Minnesota was only rushing 4 guys. That's 4 vs 5 and on one play at least,3 of those 4 guys were not only on Palmer but our guys were 3 or 4 yards away from the sack. Tom Brady couldn't have survived yesterday.

 

[NJCardFan]

Diggs had like 2 catches... our defense have up like 16 points ... Less if you consider all the BS penalties they called on the fg drive

Yeah. The first one was kind of legit. You can't dive at the QB's legs ever(Tom Brady rule). But the penalty for hitting Bradford when he lined up as a WR was total BS and the Jefferson hit on their receiver on the sideline was even bigger BS. What's he supposed to do? Let him slip the tackle? Truth be told I'm betting this is official backlash on BA. Every borderline call is going to go against us.

 

[Russ Smith]

Not sure about losing credibility with the team, but I would bet big money that the officials hate Arians, due in large part to his constant criticism of them on and off the field. We have undoubtedly been victimized by lopsided calls for just about the entire season, and I would imagine that some of them are compounded by Arians's behavior and attitude towards the officials.

I get that every head coach gets in every ref's ear, but Arians takes it to a level to which I've never seen in the professional ranks.

It's tough because I agree I think that call on Bradford lined up at Wr was almost assuredly a payback call, we're sick of you complaining. Arians was on the bench complaining about the call on Golden which was a good call, he hadn't stopped complaining about the missed hold on the Picksix, and the refs just go sick of it so boom 2 bad roughing calls we'll show you.

And what as a coach can you do, complain more? I think Arians will say something during the week and get fined and the NFL will probably send us an email on Wed or Thur that lists the calls they missed or blew and they will admit the 2 roughing calls were bad calls. they probably won't admit the Picksix was a missed call because it's a judgement call was it holding or not.

BA has reached the point of boy who cried wolf where even when he's right, the refs are sick of him. ANd this year he has been right in several games I don't fault him for complaining but he has to know when to stop so it doesn't keep hurting us.

 

[kerouac9]

Yes but it was a timing pass. You said calling timing passes you don't deserve to win.

From the 9 yard line that's a TD if the guy doesn't get held.

This week: another alternate history from Russ Smith.

 

[kerouac9]

I actually support Arians giving DJ a series off every now and again. During that drive, Ellington was moving the ball very well and the team has been wearing the tread off of DJ all season.

Heaven forbid, if something were to ever happen to DJ, this board would explode with people accusing the coaches of overworking him. The hypocrisy meter would not handle it.

I agree with this. The season is over; David Johnson needs to have a long career. He was on pace for FAR too many touches this season. He needs a break.

 

[Russ Smith]

This week: another alternate history from Russ Smith.

So explain it to me. The LOS is the 9 yard line which means as soon as Brown gets to the 4 yard line the DB can't touch him. If you watch any replay you can see he's still holding him as he gets to the endzone, 9 yards past the LOS. How is that NOT a penalty?

As soon as Aikman saw the right angle he said that's defensive holding. One of the angles you can actually see Palmer after he threw the ball throw both his hands up and then turn to the ref. He said after the game it looked clearly like holding and he asked the ref immediately for the flag.

So all these people are wrong too, you're right?

 

[kerouac9]

So explain it to me. The LOS is the 9 yard line which means as soon as Brown gets to the 4 yard line the DB can't touch him. If you watch any replay you can see he's still holding him as he gets to the endzone, 9 yards past the LOS. How is that NOT a penalty?

As soon as Aikman saw the right angle he said that's defensive holding. One of the angles you can actually see Palmer after he threw the ball throw both his hands up and then turn to the ref. He said after the game it looked clearly like holding and he asked the ref immediately for the flag.

So all these people are wrong too, you're right?

I have no opinion on whether or not it was a hold. The reality is that the penalty was not called. That said, there's no guarantee it's a TD if Brown has a free release; there's no guarantee it's not STILL an interception if Brown has a free release.

One again, Carson Palmer recklessly threw the ball into a group of defenders. But I continue to enjoy your weekly speculative fiction.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

You can't give too much blame to BA, the play calling is pretty good for the most part, Palmer makes poor decisions near the red zone or when playing from behind, and they seem to be magnified this year.

I'm not sure I agree with the above about BA. On another thread, someone said the play calling was way too predictable and I kinda agree, especially around the redzone/goal line. It always frustrates me when we are in empty backfield sets around the goal line. DJ is one of the best goal line runners I have seen in some time. Why would you not at least have him in the backfield, even as a decoy, to open up the pass.

 

[Russ Smith]

I have no opinion on whether or not it was a hold. The reality is that the penalty was not called. That said, there's no guarantee it's a TD if Brown has a free release; there's no guarantee it's not STILL an interception if Brown has a free release.

One again, Carson Palmer recklessly threw the ball into a group of defenders. But I continue to enjoy your weekly speculative fiction.

So you think Rhodes is going to hurdle Brown and catch that ball? If Brown makes his break he's IN FRONT OF RHODES.

as for speculative fiction you said that last week, then I explained in great detail play by play why you were wrong, and you never bothered to respond presumably because you too realized they would have never kicked a FG there if they didn't run out of time. Like I said at the time, someone forgot what actually happened as to why we kicked the FG, because we ran out of time because Bethel gave up the 3rd and 19 and extended the drive costing us several minutes on the clock.

This week if they call the penalty it depends what the call is. Holding or illegal contact it's first and goal from the 4.5 yard line, if they call PI, which COULD have been called since the contact is still happening when the ball is released, it's first and goal from 1. I don't know if we score a TD there or not but I'm guessing the odds are pretty slim that we throw a picksix. My guess is Arians would have put DJ back in the game and tried to run it in. might have worked, maybe not, but the Vikings were EXTREMELY unlikely to score a TD on that series if they called that penalty.

 

[Mitch]

Arians presser is exactly why he will be gone after next year. He is Whisenhunt 2.0. He had the audacity with a straight face...the coaching has been excellent!?!?!? He is delusional ! It's obvious he will never fire the ST coach.

BA is losing

So explain it to me. The LOS is the 9 yard line which means as soon as Brown gets to the 4 yard line the DB can't touch him. If you watch any replay you can see he's still holding him as he gets to the endzone, 9 yards past the LOS. How is that NOT a penalty?

As soon as Aikman saw the right angle he said that's defensive holding. One of the angles you can actually see Palmer after he threw the ball throw both his hands up and then turn to the ref. He said after the game it looked clearly like holding and he asked the ref immediately for the flag.

So all these people are wrong too, you're right?

It sure looked like Brown was being held, but Brown did nothing to try to disengage from Munnerlyn. Big mistake.

The other key thing is that the Vikings had been called for holding a few times earlier and there comes a time when the officials start swallowing their whistles so there isn't a flag on every play---especially when the calls are going against the home team and the refs are getting roundly booed.

Had Brown tried to rip his hands away to run the out, just as you suggest, Russ, and made it clear that he was getting held, the refs would have had to make the call.

Still---it was a poor decision by Palmer to throw that pass. Palmer has ruined many drives trying to target Brown in the red zone. Might be exactly why the Vikings has their two best CBs on him on that play.

 

[Russ Smith]

BA is losing


It sure looked like Brown was being held, but Brown did nothing to try to disengage from Munnerlyn. Big mistake.

The other key thing is that the Vikings had been called for holding a few times earlier and there comes a time when the officials start swallowing their whistles so there isn't a flag on every play---especially when the calls are going against the home team and the refs are getting roundly booed.

Had Brown tried to rip his hands away to run the out, just as you suggest, Russ, and made it clear that he was getting held, the refs would have had to make the call.

Still---it was a poor decision by Palmer to throw that pass. Palmer has ruined many drives trying to target Brown in the red zone. Might be exactly why the Vikings has their two best CBs on him on that play.

I agree we throw too much to the small WR's in the redzone but I don't think you can fault Palmer there for targeting Brown. Based on how quick that ball came out my guess is that was the play, they figured the Vikings would have 2 guys take Fitz going inside and Brown would be 1 on 1 outside. We scored on that exact play 3-4 times with Brown last year. Minnesota probably had good scouting and that's why Munnerlyn stayed with him.

I agree BTW Brown should have fought harder but that doesn't change the reality, Munnerlyn can't touch him once he reaches the 4 yard line but he was holding him into the endzone, it's supposed to be a penalty.

It's a quick timing pass I don't know where else Palmer would have thrown it because I don't have the All 22 but based on how the game went if he doesn't throw it to Brown he probably should just chuck it out of the endzone before he gets hit.

I can't remember if it's that play or another one where everyone on the game thread was saying Fitz was wide open what is Palmer thinking. Even Lisa Matthews retweeted that comment. How do I know? Because when I looked at Jake Arians twitter last night he was talking about it and said I don't think you know what you're looking at, if you see the wider angle there's LB underneath just sitting on that route, Palmer would have had to get it over the LB and into Fitz it was a MUCH tougher play. I think it was actually a play where Palmer ended up getting sacked or threw the ball away but I don't remember for sure. His point was people that are blaming Palmer for all this stuff need to see the actual stuff the coaches have on the field then they can see why Palmer isn't hitting these "wide open" guys, because they're not really open.

Another poster already mentioned the play where we apparently had a screen called but due to immediate pressure Palmer had to hold it longer and when he went to throw it to the right side, DJ Humphries is several yards downfield directly in the way of the guy Palmer wanted to throw to. DJ was so unaware he apparently didn't know the screen wasn't thrown and was still blocking and took away the outlet pass for palmer.

 

[82CardsGrad]

So you think Rhodes is going to hurdle Brown and catch that ball? If Brown makes his break he's IN FRONT OF RHODES.

as for speculative fiction you said that last week, then I explained in great detail play by play why you were wrong, and you never bothered to respond presumably because you too realized they would have never kicked a FG there if they didn't run out of time. Like I said at the time, someone forgot what actually happened as to why we kicked the FG, because we ran out of time because Bethel gave up the 3rd and 19 and extended the drive costing us several minutes on the clock.

This week if they call the penalty it depends what the call is. Holding or illegal contact it's first and goal from the 4.5 yard line, if they call PI, which COULD have been called since the contact is still happening when the ball is released, it's first and goal from 1. I don't know if we score a TD there or not but I'm guessing the odds are pretty slim that we throw a picksix. My guess is Arians would have put DJ back in the game and tried to run it in. might have worked, maybe not, but the Vikings were EXTREMELY unlikely to score a TD on that series if they called that penalty.

The problem is that Smoke isn't strong enough or willing to fight - ever... Most other receivers would've at least made the effort to break free from the hold, knowing that there was a really good chance the ball would be coming to a certain spot. The responsibility is on Brown to either break free and get to the spot, or at least break free enough to get a hand on the ball and prevent the INT.

 

[Mitch]

The problem is that Smoke isn't strong enough or willing to fight - ever... Most other receivers would've at least made the effort to break free from the hold, knowing that there was a really good chance the ball would be coming to a certain spot. The responsibility is on Brown to either break free and get to the spot, or at least break free enough to get a hand on the ball and prevent the INT.

It's been a tough year for him---the concussion, the diagnosis of sickle cell trait. He's clearly not playing like the player he was last year, nowhere even close.

 

[Russ Smith]

The problem is that Smoke isn't strong enough or willing to fight - ever... Most other receivers would've at least made the effort to break free from the hold, knowing that there was a really good chance the ball would be coming to a certain spot. The responsibility is on Brown to either break free and get to the spot, or at least break free enough to get a hand on the ball and prevent the INT.

Right which is where I agree with Mitch that throwing to small WR's in that situation has it's problems. But again that was a called play and I'm fairly confident they assumed Vikings double Fitz inside we go outside and that was the primary option on that play.

Palmer doesn't get a free pass on everything obviously but both those picks were sort of out of his control beyond just don't throw the ball. When he lets that go Floyd is actually behind or step for step with the CB, he slows down and it gets picked. That's Floyd's fault, and that's why Arians yelled at him and then effectively benched him. Sure would have been nice to have him play more in the 2nd half but he was again benched for dogging it.

And Brown as you said didn't make enough effort. Nelson had a play in the endzone he should have caught and dropped and another one that the ball actually hit him in the head.

Palmer is not playing great but he's not getting help from anybody but Fitz and DJ either.

 

[82CardsGrad]

It's been a tough year for him---the concussion, the diagnosis of sickle cell trait. He's clearly not playing like the player he was last year, nowhere even close.

Yea... however, I have serious doubts about Brown going forward, even if/when he's healthy...

 

[82CardsGrad]

Right which is where I agree with Mitch that throwing to small WR's in that situation has it's problems. But again that was a called play and I'm fairly confident they assumed Vikings double Fitz inside we go outside and that was the primary option on that play.

Palmer doesn't get a free pass on everything obviously but both those picks were sort of out of his control beyond just don't throw the ball. When he lets that go Floyd is actually behind or step for step with the CB, he slows down and it gets picked. That's Floyd's fault, and that's why Arians yelled at him and then effectively benched him. Sure would have been nice to have him play more in the 2nd half but he was again benched for dogging it.

And Brown as you said didn't make enough effort. Nelson had a play in the endzone he should have caught and dropped and another one that the ball actually hit him in the head.

Palmer is not playing great but he's not getting help from anybody but Fitz and DJ either.

Throwing to small receivers in the end zone can work from time to time... most notably, on quick slants or quick outs in man coverage where the QB knows for certain his WR has the defender beat to the outside. Ideally, a bigger receiver would've been put into the mix, however, Fitz was most likely taken out by the defense and I'm not even sure if Floyd was in the game... Teams will often look for their TE down in the end zone as well...