Minority coaches

[Cardiac]

Now this is an intelligent post. I agree that minorities were discriminated against in a gross and wholesale manor, yes. I very much wish the government would have implemented a more sensible (and nondiscriminatory) policy, but I understand why AA came about. It was considered a given that a minority would simply have a harder time than the white majority in the job market--an ugly truth. And AA has played a role in turning that around--a long time ago.

Thank you and I'm glad that we agree something had to be done. I guess where we differ is that I believe there is still more of a need for some kind of program or system in place even today.

Today, however, AA needs to be put to bed. We've needed to do that for a long time. Stiffen penalties against discriminatory employers to a crippling level, get rid of AA, and we'll be fine. We'll never be perfect, and we certainly aren't perfect under AA either, but as a society, we'll be fine.

Maybe you could help me understand how more stiff penalties is different then the AA.

The problem I have with what you say is in your bolded statement. You give a simple one-or-the-other situation, which is inaccurate. For one thing, if AA was done away with, we wouldn't suddenly revert to discrimination evels from decades ago. That's hyperbole. The other problem is that there are other solutions, like the one I suggested. So it isn't a choice between AA and gross discrimination against minorities; it's a choice between the effrontery of reverse discrimination under an unfair law (AA) and better, more progressive, and more fair options, like I've mentioned.

I don't believe I suggested that discrimination would revert to the sad epidemic place it was decades ago. I'm also not saying AA couldn't/shouldn't be improved upon. My point is that something is still needed as hiring and promotion practices are far from perfect.

I would prefer to focus on the root cause of the problem which is opportunites for the poor to improve their lot in life and that starts with the education system along with the entrenched entitlement/dependency culture created by welfare.

Another program with all good intentions that has created a sub culture of people who believe they are owed housing/food/medical treatment etc. by our government/society. In Pa. those on welfare receive $700 per month plus $700 for every child. Want a raise? Have another kid. This doesn't even include the free or incredibly cheap housing, food stamps, free utilities and more.

Circling back to AA. Maybe those on welfare wouldn't feel entitled to hand outs if they were given a chance to improve themselves through employment with equal chance for good paying jobs and a fair chance for promotion.

Look at what happened to the Native Americans whose culture and way of life was destroyed and then they were put onto reservations and given enough assistance to survive.

Same basic principal with slavery and African Americans. It has taken generations to overcome that soul and culture crushing circumstance.
It has taken incredible visionary leaders such as Martin Luther King to help this group of people to start to overcome the travisty that was slavery.

How about apartheid?

How about Isreal and the Arab nations?

How about Bosnia?

Too many examples of human beings hating others for often ignorant and hateful reasons to think that racism is even close to becoming extinct.

I thank you for being civil and intelligent in your response, Cardiac.

I strive to always be civil and although I don't always achieve this goal/expectation of mine it is nice for others to notice and comment on it.

I'm actually impressed with how controversial and loaded with dynamite this topic is that the discussions have been respectful. Truly a indication of the quality of ASFNers.

 

[Stout]

Wow, that's a lot to respond to, and I don't have a lot of time right now I'll stick to the one subject that probably will surprise you, both in my response and in the reality of the program: welfare.

You suffer from the same misconceptions I used to suffer from about the entitlement culture or, what it is commonly referred to, the culture of poverty. Welfare no longer works that way, and hasn't since 1996 and Clinton's Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act. Lifetime benefits are limited to 5 years (states have flexibility to pick up the tab after this), there are stringent regulations, the act itself does nothing to provide day care for single mothers (that falls to the states again, through their decisions on the use of block grants), and, most importantly, you do NOT get more money for popping out kids, as that was nixed.

Yeah, I had to do a huge paper on it last semester (in school for social work). I used to be a hard-line anti-welfare believer. I still think there's a lot of people that abuse the system, but I also see that the system is now entirely broken--and in many places, broken in ways that screws the poor.

Whew, lecture over lol

 

[GuernseyCard]

And if you'd responded like a mature adult, we wouldn't have had any problems.

I still disagree with you. If I'm more qualified for a position, and I am unfairly denied that position due to discrimination--it's given to a lesser qualified AA minority--then it's fine, because I can spend all kinds of money I don't have to hire a lawyer and go through a court system that will likely take years to decide my case?

No matter how you slice it, AA is discrimination, and it is wrong. I'm not in favor of it personally, and I would like it eliminated. As a social work student, I will of course help any clients I have avail themselves of AA, but that doesn't mean I have to support it personally.

The absolute certainty and maturity of a student. I should have known.

 

[Stout]

If affirmative action is not a response to the residue of racism born from bondage, then what is it?

To equate the possible consequences to some members of the majority to the systemic denial of opportunity to minorities strikes me as misplaced, and largely anecdotal.

These programs will pass from the scene some day, we can all hope, but they still have a role at this point. (IMO)

Your first response to me, and not a bad one.

It is of course a response to it, but that's not what you said. There has been (in the past--it is NOT systematic any more) systematic denial of opportunity to minorities. There are certainly still instances of it today--no denying that--but it isn't what it used to be. Your answer, and indeed affirmative action's answer, is that it's cool to screw over a smaller number of people--unfairly, grossly unjustly--to make up for what's happened in the past, and to *hope* to do some right today. The problem with that logic, other than the obvious problem of it not being all right to screw people over to help others, is that AA often promotes the wrong minority candidates, putting under-qualified people in positions of responsibility.

My response, and a reasonable one.

I find it laughable when a representative of the overwhelming majority in a society complains about programs designed to help rectify an imbalance.

No program designed by man will be flawless, but, it seems every counter argument to affirmative action programs end with "putting under-qualified people in positions of responsibility", and the logical, linear sequence to this thinking is that a white candidate would invariably be the "right" choice.

I completed graduate studies in the US, travel there on business frequently and have a winter residence in Florida. I've seen changes for the better over the decades, but, without getting into great detail, Nirvana is still far away.

Your response: because I'm white, it's laughable I should complain about discrimination against white people. How dare I! I should always cowtow to the minority, even at the expense of my own family members--remember, my father suffered gross and punitive reverse discrimination.

Right, since I'm part of the majority I am automatically disqualified from the possibility of having a qualified opinion on it That isn't a lazy argument; it's just plain ignorant--on purpose, I suspect.

The logical, linear choice is not that a white candidate is invariably a white candidate, no. You're trying to put words in my post that I didn't type. There are times, however--times, not always--when it is absolutely true that a lesser qualified minority gains advantage over a more qualified member of the majority, be it the white majority, male majority, or what have you. If you try to say otherwise, you're either lying or stupid. It isn't always the case, and the law isn't always abused, but it is by definition a discriminatory law. You do not solve discrimination through different forms of discrimination. Even affirmative action advocates (smart, educated, and well-spoken ones) admit that it's a broken system, even while willing to use it to correct other wrongs.

I respond strongly. I say that if you don't agree that there are some few times that a lesser qualified minority gets a job over a more qualified white individual, you're either stupid or lying. Since this is fact, it is not an insult--as long as you don't come back with a lie or aren't smart enough to look up stories where the courts AGREE that there is discriminatory practice, but it falls within the bailiwick of AA.

An intelligent response, which you gift yourself with, would not include suggesting that those who disagree are Liars and stupid.

AA programs will pass with time, but, given the underlying thinking in your response it likely will be one generation beyond you.

It isn't disagreement--do you truly want to claim that a minority candidate never gained anything over a more qualified white candidate? Please do. If not, then you aren't a liar or stupid. Simple. You know the history, and you know it happens sometimes.

The absolute certainty and maturity of a student. I should have known.

And another snipe. I turned to civility, and you returned to childishness. I should have known.

 

[Mulli]

Oy vey people.

 

[Stout]

Oy vey people.

You know me, Mulli. Someone comes strong and starts getting petty and silly, and I will slug it out in the mud