A whole lot or recency bias going on around here.
MJ vs LeBron
- Thread starter Lefty
- Start date
HeHasRosen
All Star
I may not be as old as some of you farts but i watched Jordan. I remember 93 and i remember it well. Unfortunately that was Jordans best playoff run ever. And my Suns were better than that team they got beat by. Oh and Kevin Johnson is my favorite player of all time.
Im a sports junkie. There was a time i was obsessed with MJ. Ive went back and watched again as an older version of myself. Most of all his championship years. Im familiar with his work. I think we tend to overstate Jordans competition is all.
The thing is i don't disagree with most of your post. But you have given Lebron his credit. I just think he hasn't got enough on here that's all. MJ is still the GOAT in my eyes. Even if i love me some LBJ
HeHasRosen
All Star
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2004
- Posts
- 36,756
- Reaction score
- 16,524
Or nostalgia bias?
The only nostalgia I have about the Jordan era is the refereeing was much better then. Well, better than now I should say. I'd take pre-Stern referees over anything we've had since the league went superstar crazy.
How many of those games did his team win? MJ was a killer. He won games and playoff games. Both guys had all stars next to them. I'll take MJ every time.
I never said Lebron isn’t great. I love watching him play. You are making it sound like I was saying Lebron doesn’t deserve to be called great. That’s not the case.
Understanding words matters too.
Here is what I said...
I mentioned him not being on MJ's level while the discussion is about winning championships and post season success because he's not, the record says that. I don't deny that Lebron is a great player, I said he was, but his record in the finals has to count for something. Him and Jordan are different players and while it's easy to say Jordan never had a stat line like Lebron did in game 1, he never needed to have a stat line like that to win because he kept his team involved. Jordan's Bulls couldn't be beat by their opponents letting him go off. Whether that was Jordan, coaching, a mixture of both, it's hard to say, but Jordan kept his teammates active throughout the game so they'd be ready to step up in big moments when needed, like Paxson's dagger 3 against the Suns. If a team tried treating Jordan like teams treat Lebron, giving him free reign to score and do his own thing on offense I think it would look totally different than how it does with Lebron. Jordan would either put up 90 and kill a team on his own or he'd keep trying to get his teammates involved so they couldn't just focus on beating the Bulls by stopping the 4 other guys on the court. He'd see through that and work around it somehow. Lebron seems all too willing to fall for that trap when defenses do that to him.
Everyone knows Lebron is difficult to stop so they'll let him score 50 and shut his teammates down so if they're needed to make a big play, they shrink in the moment like JR Smith did the other night or George Hill did at the FT line. Those guys weren't prepared to have the game in their hand, while Jordan made sure his teammates were ready for all 48 minutes. He demanded they work as hard as he did and wouldn't accept their shortcomings. Lebron, for better or worse, is too nice of a guy to get in his teammates face and lay into them so they're scared to let him down like Jordan's teammates were. Lebron got some of those guys their contracts, I guarantee that Jordan never worried about his teammates getting paid like that. Lebron is more of a facilitator, like Magic, and that's who he should be compared to historically. Comparing him to Jordan is difficult because they're required to do different things for their teams. Both great players, but different enough styles it's hard to compare them straight up.
HeHasRosen
All Star
Yea most of this is speculation, but its your opinion nonetheless and i respect it. But whats said is said. Not pointing at just you 2. Its been said on multiple occasions in this thread, wether it was in the moment of passion or whatever, that its not close. It is. The only thing we can truly go off of is statistics. Lebron will surpass Jordan in all by a mile. Theres only one thats in question. Championships. We will see if he can get close
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
Stats do not tell every story. You were a child, and a young one at that, during jordan’s prime. So what you experienced during that time has to be taken in perspective. And while you’ve watched Jordan’s games from back then while older that doesn’t provide you perspective on the league as a whole at the time.
I respect your overall basketball acumen and everyone’s opinions. But i hope you understand that I’ll take your impression of the nba landscape and players when you were a child with a grain of salt just as I’d defer to someone that was older and more intellectually developed about Dr J.
HeHasRosen
All Star
Fair enough
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
But don’t get me wrong, glad you’re here and offering your perspective. We need to keep getting fresh faces.
I get the debate between Jordan and Lebron, it's not just about if Lebron is better than Jordan but it also helps compare the eras as well. It puts an emphasis on who Lebron and Jordan had to play against and who they played with. It's easy to get caught up in the moment debating for Lebron. I think Kobe was on his way for the same sort of argument in regards to being compared to Jordan but it took him too long to win without Shaq and he also had too many character issues to move past. Once the rape charge came about in 2003, I believe it was, that's when the idea that Kobe was Jordan's successor seemed to stop. Not long after that the Lakers lost to the Pistons in the finals and the Shaq/Kobe Lakers broke up then Lebron entered the NBA and was everything people said he was. Lebron was drafted right after that finals that saw the Lakers collapse.
I'm kind of curious why there isn't talk of Lebron being the best Forward of all time. Is it a given or is that not enough for Lebron fans? I think most would say he is the best Forward in league history and that leaves room to say that Jordan was the best Guard also. Chamberlain, Kareem, and Bill Russell could then be debated as the top Center that the league has seen. I know a lot of people would talk about Duncan as the best PF of all time but I think even those who say that would concede the best Forward spot to Lebron. If not now, definitely by the time he finishes. Duncan has more titles but Lebron's numbers are far better across the board and he's had more individual success as league MVP, finals MVP, etc. Duncan didn't win 2 of the Spurs Finals MVP's. He didn't win it either time the Spurs faced Lebron in the finals also, with Tony Parker winning in 07 and Kawhi winning in 2012.
I'm kind of curious why there isn't talk of Lebron being the best Forward of all time. Is it a given or is that not enough for Lebron fans? I think most would say he is the best Forward in league history and that leaves room to say that Jordan was the best Guard also. Chamberlain, Kareem, and Bill Russell could then be debated as the top Center that the league has seen. I know a lot of people would talk about Duncan as the best PF of all time but I think even those who say that would concede the best Forward spot to Lebron. If not now, definitely by the time he finishes. Duncan has more titles but Lebron's numbers are far better across the board and he's had more individual success as league MVP, finals MVP, etc. Duncan didn't win 2 of the Spurs Finals MVP's. He didn't win it either time the Spurs faced Lebron in the finals also, with Tony Parker winning in 07 and Kawhi winning in 2012.
BC867
Long time Phoenician!
I think it is irrelevant. One was a Guard and one is a Forward. Basketball teams have five positions. Each one playing a team sport with four others on the court.
You can debate the best at each position, but the best individual player ever? In golf or tennis or auto racing. But basketball? It is a vague discussion seeking a concrete decision.
But, hey, we're waiting for draft day.
Western Font
ASFN Lifer
You can still be the better player even if you have the better team. If LeBron had worse supporting casts during more championships than just one, it would be more of a debate.
But I think someone astutely made the point that LeBron’s weaker rosters are also largely of his own making. I just don’t see how his forming a super-team in Miami to go 2-4 in the finals, then maintaining a revolving roster in Cleveland to go 1-2 in the finals (so far), is to be given a higher degree of difficult than MJ executing consecutive 3-peats.
Anyway, it’s just going to be hard to convince most who saw MJs whole career that he’s not the GOAT because we never saw him toppled. He fought through other dynasties to reach the top, never relinquished, and his decline was confined to a novelty comeback with the Wizards. By contrast, LeBron has been defeated repeatedly throughout his extended prime.
But I think someone astutely made the point that LeBron’s weaker rosters are also largely of his own making. I just don’t see how his forming a super-team in Miami to go 2-4 in the finals, then maintaining a revolving roster in Cleveland to go 1-2 in the finals (so far), is to be given a higher degree of difficult than MJ executing consecutive 3-peats.
Anyway, it’s just going to be hard to convince most who saw MJs whole career that he’s not the GOAT because we never saw him toppled. He fought through other dynasties to reach the top, never relinquished, and his decline was confined to a novelty comeback with the Wizards. By contrast, LeBron has been defeated repeatedly throughout his extended prime.
Lebron is saying he played games 2,3, and 4 with a broken hand. I'm not buying it. Bruised? Maybe, but not broken. MJ wouldn't have been swept in the finals and he wouldn't have come out with an excuse after the fact. Some may not see this as an excuse, that's fine, but it's definitely questionable to start talking about it after the series is over. Why else would he bring it up? He's notoriously private outside of basketball and while this is basketball related, it doesn't seem like something he'd typically mention after the playoffs are over. It definitely didn't appear broken. His game really wasn't effected.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...land-cavaliers-played-significant-hand-injury
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...land-cavaliers-played-significant-hand-injury
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2003
- Posts
- 117,960
- Reaction score
- 58,203
So if Lebron gets angry and breaks his hand during the Finals, it's a clear win for Jordon. I don't see how this can be considered as an excuse especially since he did it to himself.
Jordan never let anger get the better of himself and hurt himself in a way that could hurt his performance. That was stupid of James to do that. Beyond that though, I find it hard to believe he actually broke his hand. Did it look like he was playing injured? I don't think so. Especially not with a broken shooting hand. There were no signs of that. It sounds like an excuse, that's it, for getting swept. He could have come out and said his teammates sucked and that is a more realistic reason they lost instead of "I was playing with a broken hand for the last 3 games". MJ never would have said he was injured to explain away a loss. If Lebron really was hurt, it was his own fault and like I said, Jordan wouldn't have done something that could have cost his team their chance at a title like that. So either way, Jordan is on top. I thought he was on top before this series but the gap widens a bit more.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2003
- Posts
- 117,960
- Reaction score
- 58,203
We agree. The gap between Lebron and Jordon widens. I really don't care if Lebron had a broken hand during the Finals because it was self imposed. If true, I think Lebron should have kept it quiet. This does not help his legacy.
GatorAZ
feed hopkins
It amazes me that the media has yet to bring this up. Punching a whiteboard in the finals is 10x worse than JR’s mistake.
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2003
- Posts
- 91,363
- Reaction score
- 68,444
yup. JR might have killed their chance to win Game 1, but if LeBron broke his hand out of anger after, the rest of the series is on him. Have to be smarter/more composed than that... even after an absolutely crushing loss.
I remember 2 years ago when Enes Kanter broke either his hand or wrist punching a chair that required him for miss almost 2 months, the media was not kind to him. He was a role player for the Thunder, not their franchise centerpiece and only hope of remaining competitive. Season is over now though. Lebron punching JR Smith and breaking it would deserve more of a pass by the media than a whiteboard or wall.
gimpy
ASFN Lifer
I didn't watch any of the games. I sorta followed them on my phone, though. What happened to Lebron in the last game. I think I read where he only took 13 shots, was it? He give up or what?
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2004
- Posts
- 36,756
- Reaction score
- 16,524
He wasn't able to lead his team to a championship but he played pretty well considering he had a broken hand, amputated leg, tachycardia, actinic keratosis and a brain tumor. Oh, yeah, and the flu (every strain).
Okay, maybe it was just a self-inflicted broken hand that came into play after the game one defeat.
Jordan's flu game, game 5 of the 97 finals, vs Lebron in game 2, 3, or 4? Which was a better single game by a physically limited star. Is it any debate the flu game was more of a gutsy heroic effort? Jordan cemented his GOAT status with that. He scored 38 and helped the Bulls go up 3-2 over the Jazz.
GatorAZ
feed hopkins
Jordan’s hangover game from partying with Rodman in Vegas was much more impressive then Lebron’s hand-injury games.
