More Kolb Please

[Harry]

I looked at some film of the Housler play even before Kolb mentioned that he and Housler weren’t on the same page. One of the reasons rookie receivers do not normally post big numbers is the difficulty of timing and anticipation between the QB and the receiver. Throw in that Kolb is new also. The playbook is new to both of them. The routes are new to Housler. Finally, there was no mini-camp. Added together this is not a formula for success. Cardinal fans were spoiled by rookie possession receivers like Boldin and Fitzgerald who looked nothing like rookies. Housler is not that type of receiver despite being positioned as a tight end. He has good but not great hands. He has quite a bit more speed than most tight ends, so he creates separation. However, this also makes it harder to get the timing right.

If you look at the end zone camera view of play everyone is discussing, the problem is obvious. Kolb threw to where he expected Housler to be. Kolb anticipated more of a skinny post route and Housler ran more of a fly pattern once past the defender. I am not certain Housler gets to the ball if he runs the route Kolb anticipated (speed issue), but it would have been very close. It certainly was not a horrible throw, it was a lack of mutual understanding about what each of the players was thinking. Repetition in game situations is often the only way to get this corrected. Practice will help, but you have to play through the situations. Housler felt he could maintain separation with speed; Kolb was expecting an angle maneuver.

I have said before Kolb is less refined than I expected. He has footwork issues. He locks on receivers. He is often indecisive. He still needs work on reading defenses. Look at last week’s NFL QB ratings and you will see he is not alone.

On the other hand, he has a modest group of receivers. He has a mediocre line at best. You may remember Warner had a problem with the defensive line knocking down his passes early in his AZ tenure. Kolb will have to adjust to the weak line play he will likely get for some time to come.

I think Kolb has a chance to be a good QB. I’m not certain any QB could win consistently with this surrounding cast. Both Kolb and the Cardinal brass have a great deal more work to do.

 

[schutd]

Agreed with this post. And on the other side of the ball, Id say more Washington, Scho, Acho, and Bradley. We need to really get an idea of how much effort needs to be put into the LBer core in the offseason. Especially with the glaring holes we have elsewhere (S, OL, #2WR)

 

[Catfish]

Harry-----I would agree that your assessment of Kolb's abilities and limitations are spot on at this very time. I agree whole-heartedly that he needs time in game situations with his receivers at this point. On the other hand, we also have Skelton waiting in the wings, who also needs game time situations with his receivers. The dilemma right now, is which of the two is farther along. It just may be that Skelton is already ahead of where Kolb is at this point.

Sadly, I simply don't trust Whiz to be the guy that can, (or even should), coach these two youngsters up at this stage of their development. In my opinion, he has not been impressive in the least at bringing on young quarterbacks. Yes he was successful with Rothlisberger in Pittsburgh. But how much of that was simply Big Ben's ability to stay on his feet and find a receiver despite people hanging all over him. Neither Kolb nor Skelton possess that kind of size and strength, or Ben's escapability.

Whiz wanted Leinart to learn from Warner, and he did. He learned how to read, and to continue to check down until he found an open receiver. Yet, When Leinart found a window that he felt confident throwing into, it was usually a much shorter route than Whiz wanted, or that Warner could manage. This infuriated Whizenhunt, because he wanted the ball to go down field like Warner did it. Whiz never did seem to understand that very, very few quarterbacks have the confidence to put the ball down field into the tiny windows that Warner could. Things might have been different if we had an offensive line that could give the QB all day to throw the ball. But our QB's have to get the ball out extremely quickly. For most QB's that results in dink and dunk. It is very rare that a Warner comes along who can read quickly enough, AND have the confidence to fit the ball into a tiny window well down field.

Right now, I believe much of Kolb's regression in game situations, is due to Whizenhunt's expectations of where he believes Kolb should be right now. He is not taking into consideration all the things you said about the system being new to both Kolb AND his receivers, or even of the lack of training time because of the lockout. Whiz wants perfection, (and he wants it now). That is not a reasonable expectation in my opinion.

This is my biggest concern with Whizenhunt's style of coaching. By dumping Leinart, he has put himself into a predicament, where he either has to find another Warner, (good luck to that), or he needs to fix the O-line, which he has failed to do his whole tenure here, or he has to change his scheme, (which he is loathe to do).

I don't believe that we will see another Kurt Warner in my lifetime, (I'm 70). Fixing the O-line is time consuming, (even if Whiz and Grimm were on the same page about what kind of line is needed), a pass-blocking line, or a power running line. Grimm has worked to build a power running line, yet Whiz wants to field a pass first scheme. Each year that passes, Whiz gets more frustrated that his pass first game is failing. He either can't see that it won't work with his current personnel, or he won't take the time needed to fix what is broken so that his scheme will work.

 

[Stout]

Harry, I agree with you about being disappointed with the product we have so far in Kolb, and that we should still be patient, even though it is frickin' annoying. We need two OTs as well. I will vehemently disagree with the Housler pass. It is the second time he missed a wide-open Housler. Were this a timing route, like a quick slant or an out route, I could give Kolb a pass. It wasn't. The 'he thought Housler would run the route different' excuse holds zero water. He was looking downfield and SAW how Housler was running the route. As it isn't a timing route, it is perfectly simple to look at where the receiver is and hit him in stride. Kolb missed those throws badly. No excuse for him, even though Housler didn't run the perfect route.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Harry, I agree with you about being disappointed with the product we have so far in Kolb, and that we should still be patient, even though it is frickin' annoying. We need two OTs as well. I will vehemently disagree with the Housler pass. It is the second time he missed a wide-open Housler. Were this a timing route, like a quick slant or an out route, I could give Kolb a pass. It wasn't. The 'he thought Housler would run the route different' excuse holds zero water. He was looking downfield and SAW how Housler was running the route. As it isn't a timing route, it is perfectly simple to look at where the receiver is and hit him in stride. Kolb missed those throws badly. No excuse for him, even though Housler didn't run the perfect route.

Thanks for posting Harry.

I agree with everyone else that the jury is still out on Kolb. I especially agree with the bolded part above. We need at least average OT play before we can fairly evaluate him.

 

[slanidrac16]

There are questions about Kolb but IMHO there are just as many or more questions about the OC, play calling and the overall design of this offense.

We seems we are trying to be the same offense as we were 2 years ago without the same personel.

This front office should have seen we needed to become a more run orientd team and consentrated on bulking up the defense this last off season to allow us to play closer to the vest as a running team.

Instaed we sign two tight ends, draft anothe wr TE, let a RB go only to draft a RB and then trade a starting CB to draft a CB....

Although we have reasons to be a bit concerned about Kolb it is a little bit futher down on my list of problems.

This team would have been better doing NOTHING this off season.

QB...Skelton
RB...Wells, Hightower, LSH, Smith
CB...DRC and Peterson
TE...Spach, Housler
a 2nd round pick of a defensive player

AND we would still have a second round pick next year.

 

[LarryStalling]

Some of what you say is very true. What i can't make excuses for is not being able to read defenses and locking on to receivers after having been in the league for five or six years. I just don't find that to be acceptable for what we paid for him.

 

[londonpete]

I'm still OK with Kolb at the moment , just a couple of reservations.

One being the fact he has to run for his life due to the OLine play.
So how long is it till this becomes part of his muscle memory and becomes his default strategy.

And if we do get our OL sorted out next draft, are the coaches good enough to coach him out of it?
Whis doesn't have a great track record with QBs and C .Miller doesn't seem to have covered himself in glory so far with any of our Qbs since Warner left.

 

[Russ Smith]

Harry, I agree with you about being disappointed with the product we have so far in Kolb, and that we should still be patient, even though it is frickin' annoying. We need two OTs as well. I will vehemently disagree with the Housler pass. It is the second time he missed a wide-open Housler. Were this a timing route, like a quick slant or an out route, I could give Kolb a pass. It wasn't. The 'he thought Housler would run the route different' excuse holds zero water. He was looking downfield and SAW how Housler was running the route. As it isn't a timing route, it is perfectly simple to look at where the receiver is and hit him in stride. Kolb missed those throws badly. No excuse for him, even though Housler didn't run the perfect route.

It wasn't a great throw but I think Harry's point is based on what the defense did Kolb read the route SHOULD go to point A, but Housler took it to point B. Without being on the team it's pretty tough to know did Housler make the wrong adjustment or not. The encouraging thing is Housler continues to get open, we just need he and Kolb on the same page.

I thought it was a bad throw but it does make sense that he might not have run the route they way Kolb expected him to.

 

[Snakester]

It's time for Skelton. Kolb is not the answer. We need to decide if Skelton is the answer or if we have to draft Luck. This season is over. Kolb will never be the QB that we hoped he would be. At best he becomes okay and that is not good enough. Its Andrew Luck or nothing. The only way this team turns things around is if we draft Luck. Or if Skelton plays the rest of the year and shows that he is the next John Elway. If anybody doesn't believe that a QB is the most important person on a team by now just look at what the Colts are doing without Peyton Manning. One player is all it took to make the Colts a winless team.

 

[Darkside]

I looked at some film of the Housler play even before Kolb mentioned that he and Housler weren’t on the same page. One of the reasons rookie receivers do not normally post big numbers is the difficulty of timing and anticipation between the QB and the receiver. Throw in that Kolb is new also. The playbook is new to both of them. The routes are new to Housler. Finally, there was no mini-camp. Added together this is not a formula for success. Cardinal fans were spoiled by rookie possession receivers like Boldin and Fitzgerald who looked nothing like rookies. Housler is not that type of receiver despite being positioned as a tight end. He has good but not great hands. He has quite a bit more speed than most tight ends, so he creates separation. However, this also makes it harder to get the timing right.

If you look at the end zone camera view of play everyone is discussing, the problem is obvious. Kolb threw to where he expected Housler to be. Kolb anticipated more of a skinny post route and Housler ran more of a fly pattern once past the defender. I am not certain Housler gets to the ball if he runs the route Kolb anticipated (speed issue), but it would have been very close. It certainly was not a horrible throw, it was a lack of mutual understanding about what each of the players was thinking. Repetition in game situations is often the only way to get this corrected. Practice will help, but you have to play through the situations. Housler felt he could maintain separation with speed; Kolb was expecting an angle maneuver.

I have said before Kolb is less refined than I expected. He has footwork issues. He locks on receivers. He is often indecisive. He still needs work on reading defenses. Look at last week’s NFL QB ratings and you will see he is not alone.

On the other hand, he has a modest group of receivers. He has a mediocre line at best. You may remember Warner had a problem with the defensive line knocking down his passes early in his AZ tenure. Kolb will have to adjust to the weak line play he will likely get for some time to come.

I think Kolb has a chance to be a good QB. I’m not certain any QB could win consistently with this surrounding cast. Both Kolb and the Cardinal brass have a great deal more work to do.

I totally disagree. Every time Housler throws in a shoulder fake, or dip, it messes up Kolb's timing. Every single time. If he just ran straight up the field the ball would be there (but who knows if he'd be as open).

Kolb does lock on to Fitz, because Fitz always makes the correct adjustments. There were 2 sacks today, possibly 3, because the 2ndary receiver didn't recognize a blitz and do a simple hot route adjustment. You get Kolb back there ready to throw, without a receiver even looking back for the ball. The result is a sack. He suffered maybe 3 sacks because of that, and he was smart to pull it back and not throw it (to a dumb*ss receiver not even looking back for the ball).

When you're outnumbered, receivers have to make the adjustments. Q and Breaston were smart enough to do so and help Fitz out, but these clowns we have now can't even do a simple sight adjustment. It's not a lack of talent, it's dumba$$ery.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I think Kolb is the answer, the more I watch this crappy line, the more I believe this. And Doucet is playing alright but Roberts is not being able to get open. Its Fitz or bust for a reason when Kolb gets back to pass. I do love seeing the young LBs out there, they did a good job today and Peterson is coming along as a CB and his return skills are something special to watch. I'm not upset because I'm looking to next year.

 

[Jetstream Green]

I saw the same thing Darkside with the complimentary WRs to Fitz, they are not getting open when Kolb has to have a target when being harassed back there

 

[Phrazbit]

I think Kolb is the answer, the more I watch this crappy line, the more I believe this. And Doucet is playing alright but Roberts is not being able to get open. Its Fitz or bust for a reason when Kolb gets back to pass. I do love seeing the young LBs out there, they did a good job today and Peterson is coming along as a CB and his return skills are something special to watch. I'm not upset because I'm looking to next year.

Kolb is the answer... to the question "what is the worst acquisition in Arizona Cardinals history".

He has shown nothing. These are zero signs that he is a competent QB. He cant read defenses, he shows no poise, he has a weak arm, he makes awful decisions, he cant find open guys, he cant hit guys wide open down feild.

Seriously, right now what grade can he be given besides an F-? He shows no strengths at all, he isnt even looking average at any single area of QB play.

 

[LarryStalling]

Kolb is the answer... to the question "what is the worst acquisition in Arizona Cardinals history".

He has shown nothing. These are zero signs that he is a competent QB. He cant read defenses, he shows no poise, he has a weak arm, he makes awful decisions, he cant find open guys, he cant hit guys wide open down feild.

Seriously, right now what grade can he be given besides an F-? He shows no strengths at all, he isnt even looking average at any single area of QB play.

Oh it is a good thing that you said Arizona Cardinal history. I could show you a horrific trade that they made when they were back in the Midwest. This pales compared to that one. Kind of reminds me of the Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio trade in baseball.

 

[Duckjake]

I think Kolb is the answer, the more I watch this crappy line, the more I believe this. And Doucet is playing alright but Roberts is not being able to get open. Its Fitz or bust for a reason when Kolb gets back to pass. I do love seeing the young LBs out there, they did a good job today and Peterson is coming along as a CB and his return skills are something special to watch. I'm not upset because I'm looking to next year.

Why? Other than wearing the Cardinals uniform what has he done to make you think this?

 

[john h]

I looked at some film of the Housler play even before Kolb mentioned that he and Housler weren’t on the same page. One of the reasons rookie receivers do not normally post big numbers is the difficulty of timing and anticipation between the QB and the receiver. Throw in that Kolb is new also. The playbook is new to both of them. The routes are new to Housler. Finally, there was no mini-camp. Added together this is not a formula for success. Cardinal fans were spoiled by rookie possession receivers like Boldin and Fitzgerald who looked nothing like rookies. Housler is not that type of receiver despite being positioned as a tight end. He has good but not great hands. He has quite a bit more speed than most tight ends, so he creates separation. However, this also makes it harder to get the timing right.

If you look at the end zone camera view of play everyone is discussing, the problem is obvious. Kolb threw to where he expected Housler to be. Kolb anticipated more of a skinny post route and Housler ran more of a fly pattern once past the defender. I am not certain Housler gets to the ball if he runs the route Kolb anticipated (speed issue), but it would have been very close. It certainly was not a horrible throw, it was a lack of mutual understanding about what each of the players was thinking. Repetition in game situations is often the only way to get this corrected. Practice will help, but you have to play through the situations. Housler felt he could maintain separation with speed; Kolb was expecting an angle maneuver.

I have said before Kolb is less refined than I expected. He has footwork issues. He locks on receivers. He is often indecisive. He still needs work on reading defenses. Look at last week’s NFL QB ratings and you will see he is not alone.

On the other hand, he has a modest group of receivers. He has a mediocre line at best. You may remember Warner had a problem with the defensive line knocking down his passes early in his AZ tenure. Kolb will have to adjust to the weak line play he will likely get for some time to come.

I think Kolb has a chance to be a good QB. I’m not certain any QB could win consistently with this surrounding cast. Both Kolb and the Cardinal brass have a great deal more work to do.

Harry old friend. You have fallen into a bear trap. There are rookies that have a lot less experience than Kolb, who also did not have a preseason, and who are now starters and performing far above Kolb. I just do not see him ever being anything more than a $61 million dollar backup that has set us back some years. I still want to know who is the brains behind this choice? There were many warning signs he was a big risk. One poster noted we would have been much better this year had we done nothing. I think he was right on. We became significantly worse. Fitz gave Kolb his seal of approval but that is why we have General Managers and they typically select the guys we trade for and draft. We do not ever want our players put in a position to be important in who we draft or trade for.

For some weeks now every team we face continues throw at Jefferson. This guy seems like he should not be a starter. Sure wish we had that DB we traded away.

 

[Evil Ash]

Kolb is the answer... to the question "what is the worst acquisition in Arizona Cardinals history".

He has shown nothing. These are zero signs that he is a competent QB. He cant read defenses, he shows no poise, he has a weak arm, he makes awful decisions, he cant find open guys, he cant hit guys wide open down feild.

Seriously, right now what grade can he be given besides an F-? He shows no strengths at all, he isnt even looking average at any single area of QB play.

For the first 2 weeks of the season Kolb was rated a top 5 QB in the league. Since then he, has taken some steps backwards - some of it is his fault, some is not (questionable playcalling, horrible OT play). To say that he has shown nothing is a massive overstatement.

Part of the problem is that Whiz and our offensive coaching staff want to stick with their system (heavy pass-oriented, based almost entirely on timing) as if the same personnel was here as during Warner's time here. A lack of an offseason doesn't help a player get practice in a timing based offense and adjustments need to be made around the personnel.

 

[Evil Ash]

Harry old friend. You have fallen into a bear trap. There are rookies that have a lot less experience than Kolb, who also did not have a preseason, and who are now starters and performing far above Kolb. I just do not see him ever being anything more than a $61 million dollar backup that has set us back some years. I still want to know who is the brains behind this choice? There were many warning signs he was a big risk. One poster noted we would have been much better this year had we done nothing. I think he was right on. We became significantly worse. Fitz gave Kolb his seal of approval but that is why we have General Managers and they typically select the guys we trade for and draft. We do not ever want our players put in a position to be important in who we draft or trade for.

For some weeks now every team we face continues throw at Jefferson. This guy seems like he should not be a starter. Sure wish we had that DB we traded away.

Some coaching staffs know how to simplify offensive schemes and adjust their gameplan around their personnel. Our coaching staffs is NOT one of them.

If you don't believe me, Whiz stated that they were going to adjust to Kolb LAST WEEK. This something that should have been done in the preseason not near the halfway point in the season

 

[WildBB]

I have said before Kolb is less refined than I expected. He has footwork issues. He locks on receivers. He is often indecisive. He still needs work on reading defenses. Look at last week’s NFL QB ratings and you will see he is not alone.

Do you even read anything on this board other than what you write?

 

[az1965]

Agreed with this post. And on the other side of the ball, Id say more Washington, Scho, Acho, and Bradley. We need to really get an idea of how much effort needs to be put into the LBer core in the offseason. Especially with the glaring holes we have elsewhere (S, OL, #2WR)

You need a stud pass rusher regardless...

 

[Evil Ash]

You need a stud pass rusher regardless...

True but if Acho and Scho continue to develop then it becomes less of a priority. Instead of taking a first rounder, immediate impact guy - they could look for a developmental prospect instead.

 

[az1965]

True but if Acho and Scho continue to develop then it becomes less of a priority. Instead of taking a first rounder, immediate impact guy - they could look for a developmental prospect instead.

We will be picking in top 5, perhaps even top 3, there is no way we should let a top pass rusher go by us. Acho and Scho may develop into decent pass rushers but we need game changers. We should learn from past.

 

[Evil Ash]

We will be picking in top 5, perhaps even top 3, there is no way we should let a top pass rusher go by us. Acho and Scho may develop into decent pass rushers but we need game changers. We should learn from past.

I'd rather take a top OT at our pick in the 1st. To me thats a higher priority

 

[az1965]

I'd rather take a top OT at our pick in the 1st. To me thats a higher priority

I'm ok on whichever is higher on the draft board as long as we don't reach for a need... *cough* Brown *cough*