More on Camby

[George O'Brien]

Through all the debate about Kobe, the bottom line is that it is only a remote possibility that he will become a Sun. I would expect that his court case will be resolved before the expansion draft. I would also expect that Kobe will be pretty clear about if he intends to leave the Lakers or not by then as well.

IF the Suns know that Kobe will be completely exonerated AND they know he WILL be leaving the Lakers, then I expect the Suns will do a deal with the Bobcats to move White and clear cap space.

However, if there is any doubt on either account, it would not make much sense to kill a draft pick to clear cap space that will come available in a year anyway. What is more, White serves an important role for a team that is not a particularly physical team.

What does that have to do with Camby? The Suns could offer Camby up to about $7 million without moving White. Camby is big enough to deal with all but about 5 centers in the NBA, but having White available to deal with the other 5 would create a fairly potent combination.

Assuming he stays healthy (A HUGE IF), Camby would be able to play both center and PF, thus reducing the need for another PF other than Amare and Zarko (and even Lampe may turn out to be a PF as well). Camby, Voskuhl, White, and Lampe would give the Suns a solid current team at center.

I am not offering this as a BETTER alternative than Kobe (the judgement on Kobe is too heavily related to chemistry), but as possible Plan B.

The other centers seem less appealing: Dampier is unlikely to change teams and would cost at least $2 million more. Okur is more of an offensive than defensive factor, while Camby is a great shot blocker and rebounder. Camby is great at put backs.

As I said, my concern with Camby is his health (no long contracts) and his ability to handle power centers. Keeping White around minimizes that concern.

 

[elindholm]

Can you come clean and tell us what you have against Bryant? Each of your "alternative" proposals sounds like more of a reach than the last one. He is on pace to play more than 63 games for the first time in his eight-year career -- and he ain't there yet this season. It isn't a question of whether he will get hurt again, but when.

 

[ehale911]

Yeah, giving Camby anything more than the MLE would be a huge mistake, IMO. The guy is a solid center when healthy, but unfortunately the guy is never healthy. If we cannot/don't want to sign Kobe this off season I think it would be best for us to just sit on the cap space and wait until next offseason.

As for as Jahidi goes, I think he can be a servicable center. However, if we need to free more capspace to sign a FA or two he'll be the first to go because he's got a very movable contract, unlike Howard Eisley who is obviously everyone's first choice to go.

I just hope that management doesn't feel the need to spend this offseason and waste it all by throwing 7 or 8 million at someone as injury prone as Camby or someone as suspect as Mehmet Okur.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

BTW, Bryants Case isn't expected to even start until this summer, so no way in hell it will be over by the expansion draft.

Unless of course the prosecution just gives up, from what I have read they are getting killed by an obviously better legal team.

 

[creed]

Please no settling on Camby

I'd rather talk about the remote chance of getting Kobe versus the good chance of getting Camby.

 

[cly2tw]

The Suns are in rebuilding process. If they could sign a Camby without compromising their capability to persue a franchise player, then just go for it. But more important than those complementary parts, you gotta make up your mind which players you want to be your franchise players! Amare and JJ are far from proven, not to mention projects like Barbosa and Vujanic. So, what's the core to build your franchise on?

Well, if you proposed trading Marion for more cap, then I might be inclined to talk more about the specifics of how much Camby is worth, since I'd still have enough cap to persue Kobe when he became available! In other words, Marion's contract is the cap burden we are stuck up with, I'd be more than happy to exchange this burden with a potential injury-induced burden in Camby!

In a nutshell, I don't agree with the notion that you need complementary players first before you are sure about who your franchise players will be, and overpaying the role players along the process! One Marion is enough!

 

[Joe Mama]

Marcus Camby is talking about the Phoenix Suns to try to jack up his value. I read that he would be a very nice fit if he could stay healthy, but he can't. The Suns will absolutely not sign him for anything over a mid-level exception if they would even compromise their salary cap position by giving him that. I really believe the Suns will be careful with their spending, especially when it comes to injury prone players.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
BTW, Bryants Case isn't expected to even start until this summer, so no way in hell it will be over by the expansion draft.

Unless of course the prosecution just gives up, from what I have read they are getting killed by an obviously better legal team.

I agree that Camby is probably too injury prone to worth the gamble (I said that). My main point was that the only way Camby makes sense would be if White were on the team.

White is just a role player, but he does something that no one else on the team can - battle Shaq, Yao, Magoire, and a few other power centers. IMHO, using a draft pick to bribe the Bobcats to take him on the remote chance that Kobe MIGHT be vindicated and might be available seems pretty expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the Suns should necessarily protect White from the expansion draft. He is definitely overpaid. But unless the pick required to bribe the Bobcats to take him is a protected future pick, I would be reluctant to make the move. My fear is that the Suns would be forced to give up the NY pick just to clear cap space that would not be used unless Kobe is available. Wait a year and you get the same cap space for free.

My big concern is not what it would take to get Kobe. My biggest concern is the cost of trying to get Kobe and failing. My second concern is the limits placed on the team with two max contracts while needing a shot blocking center. My third concern is whether Kobe would mesh with the chemistry of this team considering his rep in LA.

In any case, my biggest concern is the extremely high likelyhood that using a draft pick to clear White would be an absolute and very expesnive waste.

 

[Wally]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
I agree that Camby is probably too injury prone to worth the gamble (I said that).


My big concern is not what it would take to get Kobe. My biggest concern is the cost of trying to get Kobe and failing. My second concern is the limits placed on the team with two max contracts while needing a shot blocking center. My third concern is whether Kobe would mesh with the chemistry of this team considering his rep in LA.

Here we go again....

I am trying not to be officious, but what makes anyone think that Kobe will not have injury problems the rest of his career? His shoulder was repaired with surgery and he re-injured it by jumping into (I forget who it was) to get a foul. That’s his style of play. What if he is a future “Penny” in the making?

If the Suns want to risk the chemistry of the team and go after Kobe, why not do a sign & trade deal with LA that includes Marion or JJ? I’m not saying I’m for it, but it seems like something that could work…. Assuming Kobe wants out of LA and would ‘agree” with the Suns plans for the future. Personally, I’d rather keep Marion and JJ who are never officious and add someone like McGrady or even Camby for that matter.

If the price is right with Camby, at least you go into it knowing that injuries HAVE been a problem, and that in itself, should make the cost of getting him low. If he's not "cheap" forget it, high paid injury problems are something we've seen too much.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Wally
Here we go again....

I am trying not to be officious, but what makes anyone think that Kobe will not have injury problems the rest of his career? His shoulder was repaired with surgery and he re-injured it by jumping into (I forget who it was) to get a foul. That’s his style of play. What if he is a future “Penny” in the making?

If the Suns want to risk the chemistry of the team and go after Kobe, why not do a sign & trade deal with LA that includes Marion or JJ? I’m not saying I’m for it, but it seems like something that could work…. Assuming Kobe wants out of LA and would ‘agree” with the Suns plans for the future. Personally, I’d rather keep Marion and JJ who are never officious and add someone like McGrady or even Camby for that matter.

If the price is right with Camby, at least you go into it knowing that injuries HAVE been a problem, and that in itself, should make the cost of getting him low. If he's not "cheap" forget it, high paid injury problems are something we've seen too much.

Um, you complain that Kobe MIGHT become injury-prone the rest of his career, yet you support signing Marcus Camby? What the...??


Just say no to Marcus Camby! I don't even like him for the MLE.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Um, you complain that Kobe MIGHT become injury-prone the rest of his career, yet you support signing Marcus Camby? What the...??


Just say no to Marcus Camby! I don't even like him for the MLE.

The big difference would the length of contract. There is no way I would do a contract with Camby that was guarenteed for longer than two years, while Kobe would require 6.

There is also the question of the later years escallation that are likely to take it above $20 million a year by the 6th year. With both Marion and Kobe having long contracts. Marion in 2006-07 will cost $13.8 million. Kobe would be at about $16 million (if he starts at $13 million) for a total of $30 million. By '08-09, Marion will be at $16.3 and Kobe at $19 for $35 million. As the Suns younger players contracts come up, the Suns face a rapidly ballooning salary structure.

In this context, worrying about Kobe's health is not just being negitive. Doing a Grant Hill would doom the team for the rest of the decade.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien


In this context, worrying about Kobe's health is not just being negitive. Doing a Grant Hill would doom the team for the rest of the decade.

Well, then I guess our priorities are wrong. I'm interested in actually winning a championship. Since you are not, I guess it is reasonable to want to sign players like Marcus Camby, Brent Barry, etc., etc. Why? To stay competitive, but never able to "get over the hump", as it were. Just like we'd been doing throughout the 90s.

Sorry, but to me, that's definitely not good enough.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Well, then I guess our priorities are wrong. I'm interested in actually winning a championship. Since you are not, I guess it is reasonable to want to sign players like Marcus Camby, Brent Barry, etc., etc. Why? To stay competitive, but never able to "get over the hump", as it were. Just like we'd been doing throughout the 90s.

Sorry, but to me, that's definitely not good enough.

Contract length is crucial. I don't believe Amare, JJ, Barbosa, Zarko, Lampe, and Casey are going to be developed enough for the team to get over the hump next year and probably not the following year. It won't matter if Kobe is here or not. Brent Barry, Camby, etc. are only of interest to me if they sign short term contracts. I am beginning to think that Vujanic may play the same role I was looking for from Brent Barry, so I am backing off on my interest in him.

Short term contracts are the equivlent of "banking" cap space. In the case of Kobe, my guess is that he will stick out one more year with the Lakers and then go FA the following year if at all.

Does that mean that you don't take Camby if the price is right for a short term contract if it reduces the already remote chance of getting Kobe? I don't know.

As I've said in other threads, my biggest fear is that the Suns would use a draft pick to get rid of White only to find they can't really use the cap space anyway. I am more inclined to get rid of Eisley (two years rather than one more and he's less useful), but the cost is going be huge.

Almost every suggestion I make is based on the assumption that Kobe will decide not to come here - not that it would be bad idea for him to come here. Sure I think he might not fit and that the Suns still would have holes to fill, but I can live with that. I just don't want to give up a lot of value on the wisp of a hope.

 

[elindholm]

Fair enough, but Camby won't want to come to Phoenix either.

Hypothetically, if the Suns give up draft picks in order to make room for Bryant and then he doesn't come, I disagree that it will have been a waste. They can sit on their space until 2005 and look at the free-agent market then. Or, it could be that a team is eager to unload a disaffected star and the Suns are in a position to capitalize with a trade. I agree that the Suns shouldn't overpay in order to get rid of White or Eisley, but on the other hand, there are advantages to moving out those contracts that have nothing to do with Bryant.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by elindholm
Fair enough, but Camby won't want to come to Phoenix either.

Hypothetically, if the Suns give up draft picks in order to make room for Bryant and then he doesn't come, I disagree that it will have been a waste. They can sit on their space until 2005 and look at the free-agent market then. Or, it could be that a team is eager to unload a disaffected star and the Suns are in a position to capitalize with a trade. I agree that the Suns shouldn't overpay in order to get rid of White or Eisley, but on the other hand, there are advantages to moving out those contracts that have nothing to do with Bryant.

THANK YOU.

I have been saying this for like a week, and I don't think anyone has listened.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
THANK YOU.

I have been saying this for like a week, and I don't think anyone has listened.

You and me both Graham.

 

[elindholm]

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that I was the only one elightened with that perspective!

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Yes, I didn't mean to imply that I was the only one elightened with that perspective!

Oh, there is definitely a few of us--but it appears there aren't many of us--or at least, those of us with a certain amount of passion for the possibilities...

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr

I have been saying this for like a week, and I don't think anyone has listened.

You are wrong here.

I did agree with you in this. I still do.

If Suns can sign Kobe do it!
If they can't DO NOT OVERPAY ANYONE!
It will take other valuable assets to get rid of them

Offer only reasonable contracts ala Billups! If someone makes a higher bid don't match with it!
Simply keep the cap room!

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by hcsilla
You are wrong here.

I did agree with you in this. I still do.

If Suns can sign Kobe do it!
If they can't DO NOT OVERPAY ANYONE!
It will take other valuable assets to get rid of them

Offer only reasonable contracts ala Billups! If someone makes a higher bid don't match with it!
Simply keep the cap room!

I have no problem with that. Exactly what constitutes "overpaying" is up for discussion, but I think most bidding matches inevitably result in overpaying. (Prediction: Okur will be overpaid.)

None of this addresses the core question: how much should you give up to gain extra cap space if you are uncertain you will be able to use it?

 

[elindholm]

None of this addresses the core question:

None of what? I thought I addressed it pretty clearly.

Come to think of it, George O'Brien, do you have me on Ignore? Because very often it seems that you aren't reading my posts. Unless you tell me otherwise I think I will assume that you are ignoring me. Which is okay -- I don't take it personally, it just makes "discussion" awkward.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

None of this addresses the core question: how much should you give up to gain extra cap space if you are uncertain you will be able to use it?

There aren't exact rules and formulas concerning your "core question".
That's business. Not maths.

However I consider the "future mid 1st rounders for (even more)cap room"-type of deals as smart moves.

It opens the possibility of the signing of a big name FA and it seems to be pretty likely under the luxury tax-era that you will get back AT LEAST that mid 1st rounder if someone wants to dump a short contract on you.

In other words I would trade White, CLE 's pick to CHA. Without any negotiatons with Kobe. At a heartbeat.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by hcsilla
There aren't exact rules and formulas concerning your "core question".
That's business. Not maths.

However I consider the "future mid 1st rounders for (even more)cap room"-type of deals as smart moves.

It opens the possibility of the signing of a big name FA and it seems to be pretty likely under the luxury tax-era that you will get back AT LEAST that mid 1st rounder if someone wants to dump a short contract on you.

In other words I would trade White, CLE 's pick to CHA. Without any negotiatons with Kobe. At a heartbeat.

Thank you. That's what I'm asking.

On another thread I suggest that it is much better to get rid of Eisley than White. I would go so far as to give up this year's NY pick to clear two years rather than just one.

As for White and the Cleveland pick, I don't see how that pick would make a difference. If they think White would be useful, they would take him without bribes. If they don't, I can't see how a fantasy future pick changes it that much. Would you give a beter pick? Would you give a pick from this year?

Anyway, knowing exactly which pick we are talking about is an important part of the equasion.

 

[Billythekid]

Originally posted by elindholm
None of this addresses the core question:

None of what? I thought I addressed it pretty clearly.

Come to think of it, George O'Brien, do you have me on Ignore? Because very often it seems that you aren't reading my posts. Unless you tell me otherwise I think I will assume that you are ignoring me. Which is okay -- I don't take it personally, it just makes "discussion" awkward.

I'll help ya out... I think he's ignoring you.


George O'Brien, the above is for you man...

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by George O'Brien

As for White and the Cleveland pick, I don't see how that pick would make a difference. If they think White would be useful, they would take him without bribes. If they don't, I can't see how a fantasy future pick changes it that much. Would you give a beter pick?

No, I wouldn't. One lottery pick is too much for dumping a contract, IMO.

Would you give a pick from this year?

Yes, I would, if it's #15 or lower.