morons kings fans disrespecting the suns

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It has to do with the fact that Cheese is basing his expertise on incomplete information. That and what I percieved as a condecending attitude about his knowledge of how the Suns play.

I think he misses and discounts the times that the Suns are great without Nash on the floor.

In any event it is over and simply a difference of opinion. In fact not even a difference of opinion but a disagreement about the the degree of that opinion.

s'aright.

 

[Cheesebeef]

okay - here's a come on right back at you e - IT'S A FREAKING LAYIN - the ball doens't go THAT high on a layin.

Who says it has to go "that high"? Miller released the ball below the rim. It has to go up. It sounds like you think he was right at the rim when he released the ball, but that is simply not correct. I'd guess the ball was at least a foot from the rim when he first let go of it, probably more.

rewatch the replay e - miller's right at the rim leeting go of that ball - the play is SOOO close though - it's not really worth talking about anymore - if it ever was - considering WE WON!

Like Ouchie said and I said earlier - I'm stoked we got the benefit of the doubt in Sacto - shows some of that respect people are always bitching about not getting.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It has to do with the fact that Cheese is basing his expertise on incomplete information. That and what I percieved as a condecending attitude about his knowledge of how the Suns play.

I think he misses and discounts the times that the Suns are great without Nash on the floor.

In any event it is over and simply a difference of opinion. In fact not even a difference of opinion but a disagreement about the the degree of that opinion.

i'll kill you Chaz! You are your condescending attitude towards me!

 

[elindholm]

look, i only saw the replay once

I already posted that I have it recorded and have watched it frame-by-frame.

Forget it. I give up.

 

[George O'Brien]

I still haven't seen any followup to Eric's point. My understanding of the issue of the cylinder had to do with the ball touching the rim, which was clearly not the case.

The cylinder issue might relate to when the ball was below the rim. But if it is below the rim, then wouldn't it have to be on a downward trajectory ? In any case, I'm not even sure I can understand how the ball could be blocked that was partly below the rim unless the rim or the ball was touched by the man blocking shot. Even if physically possible, it could not be done with any power.

Does the cylinder include the area immediately above the rim when the ball isn't touching the rim? I've never heard that before. However, even if this is correct, it is still confusing because I cannot imagine how it could be directly above the rim with out being on a downward trajectory.

So unless I'm missing something, the cylinder is irrelevant in this case. All that is relevant is whether the ball was on a downward trajectory.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I

Does the cylinder include the area immediately above the rim when the ball isn't touching the rim? I've never heard that before. However, even if this is correct, it is still confusing because I cannot imagine how it could be directly above the rim with out being on a downward trajectory.

THE BALL DOESN'T HAVE TO BE TOUCHING THE RIM! Does anyone remember that All-Star gamne back in 1991 or 1992, when KJ shot a three to win it with like 5 seconds remaining and for some unknown RIDICULOUS reason - Karl Malone put his hand up right as it was about to go in the bucket - the ball hadn't hit the rim yet, but was over SOME PART of the cylinder - they immediatley called offensive goaltending because you can't touch the ball if it's hovering over ANY PART of the cylinder - bottom line.

The CYLINDER is EXACTLY what's important here George. Downward trajectory dpoesn't mean squat - if the ball was over the rim - and Amare got his hand on it - it's a goaltend - bvut again - it's too close to call IMO now.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

you know what's even funnier - check this board after we did the same exact thing against San Antonio last game - it was a carbon copy of the bitching and myopia that you see on the Kings board today - "waaa, the refs..." "I'm not afraid of the Spurs, we are clearly the best team and we can take them in a seven game series" and "Steven Nash can gaurd Manu!" and so on and so on. There's no difference between them and us - WE'RE ALL HOMERS - period.

Personally - I don't want to face the Kings in the playoffs in the second round. I'd MUCH rather face Seattle and let Sacto and the Sputrs beat the hell out of each other before getting us - but that's just me. We're not gonna get a 33 point 17 asst. game from Steve Nash all the time - that was special last night (although Nash has been unbelievable and the hands down MVP this year).

Have a little perspective people.

Uh, cheese, maybe you should check their board, it is a little different than this one. In fact, the biggest difference is the consensus over there; ie they all agree about everything. Pretty much every post is, "the Kings were screwed by x" followed by "I totally agree!!" It's thoroughly amusing. I don't think anyone on the board was saying that the Spurs were crap or that we are clearly the best team, or that we could beat them in a seven game series. I would love to see that...Also the "have a little perspective" comment is a bit much, especially if you didn't visit the Kings board in the first place. I wasted much of the afternoon reading their drivel. The most entertaining stuff is when they talk about what they would do to Amare if he was in front of them. What I would pay for Amare to see it, and be in front of them....

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Well of course a Kings board will delete a post like that. There's a reason why there aren't any trolls on this board. Not to say Chris is a Troll, but there is no denying that is EXACTLY what those Kings fans would think if he went on there and says stuff like we'd "dominate" them (which is untrue, by the way).

Well, if you read the post, I would appreciate your insight, but, since you didn't, I'll post it tomorrow. Calling me a troll would be like calling Professor Moriarty a common criminal. I explained my aversion to the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the Kings team and fans, and explained the lifecycle of the Kings team vs. the Suns, and their alternative paths. It did include substantive discussion, but they had no interest in that. Stay tuned!

 

[PhxGametime]

The series is 1-1 and both games were close - both games IMO Suns should have won... being in 2nd place in Division, where does this talk come from Kings fans?


I'll complain about the refs as much as anybody and I could talk for 20 minutes on the calls Kings got but where did the trash talk come from? A perfectly legal block or are Kings fans always like this...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Uh, cheese, maybe you should check their board, it is a little different than this one. In fact, the biggest difference is the consensus over there; ie they all agree about everything. Pretty much every post is, "the Kings were screwed by x" followed by "I totally agree!!" It's thoroughly amusing. I don't think anyone on the board was saying that the Spurs were crap or that we are clearly the best team, or that we could beat them in a seven game series. I would love to see that...Also the "have a little perspective" comment is a bit much, especially if you didn't visit the Kings board in the first place. I wasted much of the afternoon reading their drivel. The most entertaining stuff is when they talk about what they would do to Amare if he was in front of them. What I would pay for Amare to see it, and be in front of them....

I did go to their board Chris - and I saw what I see here - a few people with their heads on objectively straight and a TON of homers - they just have more homers - andthey bitch and moan a little more.

But reverse the call - and consider all the images we've seen - you know this board would be going bat-sh#t!

But then again - my boss just looked at it - impartial Bulls fan - and said at first it was too close to call but upon second and third viewing he thought it was clearly a block and then added of course - "what a puss Brad Miller is - you got to either go glass or stuff that crap!" I thought that was funny because THAT is really the bottom line. The Kings are soft ******* and so are their fans@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry if the perspective line came off as harsh - I knew it would when I read it back and it wasn't my intention, but this baord can be pretty homeristic sometimes also. I was also too lazy to go back and de-harshen it (yes - de-harshen)

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well, if you read the post, I would appreciate your insight, but, since you didn't, I'll post it tomorrow. Calling me a troll would be like calling Professor Moriarty a common criminal. I explained my aversion to the wailing and gnashing of teeth of the Kings team and fans, and explained the lifecycle of the Kings team vs. the Suns, and their alternative paths. It did include substantive discussion, but they had no interest in that. Stay tuned!

now i definitely want to read it.

 

[Chaz]

THE BALL DOESN'T HAVE TO BE TOUCHING THE RIM! Does anyone remember that All-Star gamne back in 1991 or 1992, when KJ shot a three to win it with like 5 seconds remaining and for some unknown RIDICULOUS reason - Karl Malone put his hand up right as it was about to go in the bucket - the ball hadn't hit the rim yet, but was over SOME PART of the cylinder - they immediatley called offensive goaltending because you can't touch the ball if it's hovering over ANY PART of the cylinder - bottom line.

The CYLINDER is EXACTLY what's important here George. Downward trajectory dpoesn't mean squat - if the ball was over the rim - and Amare got his hand on it - it's a goaltend - bvut again - it's too close to call IMO now.

It is not a FG attempt until it is on the way down. I hope we can agree Miller's shot was not on the way down.

Rule 11
g. Touch any live ball from within the playing area that is on its downward flight with an opportunity to touch the basket ring. This is considered to be a "field goal attempt" or trying for a goal.

So then the other only issue is 11b
b. Touch the ball when it is above the basket ring and within the imaginary cylinder.

The ball has to be above the rim and within the cylinder ring. Now we have a matter of degree. How much of the ball constitutes "within"?
The way Amare's arm passes in front of the rim as he swats the ball I would not say it was within the cylinder. I appears the refs and just about everyone else in the world outside Sacramento would agree.

 

[elindholm]

Now we have a matter of degree. How much of the ball constitutes "within"?

Right, exactly -- and frankly, I'm amazed the rules don't seem to make this explicit. I looked around for a while and couldn't find any clarification.

 

[George O'Brien]

Just as a matter of curiosity, is there a difference here between offensive and defensive goal tending in this context?

 

[Chaz]

Just as a matter of curiosity, is there a difference here between offensive and defensive goal tending in this context?

As it relates to Rule 11b, I don't think so.

 

[cly2tw]

Somehow, I'd guess that to count as a defensive goaltending before the ball hit either the board or the rim, the only revelant issue is ascending or descending. I have seen plenty attempted dunks blocked right above the rim within the "cylinder", it's either a foul or a block but never a goaltending. It's reasonable to assume that the "above the rim within the cylinder" is meant to deal with bounces at the rim which could be ascending or descending in different phase of the bounces.

Imagine the trajectory of a still ascending ball above the rim. Under which circumstance can such a ball ever get in the basket?

 

[George O'Brien]

Somehow, I'd guess that to count as a defensive goaltending before the ball hit either the board or the rim, the only revelant issue is ascending or descending. I have seen plenty attempted dunks blocked right above the rim within the "cylinder", it's either a foul or a block but never a goaltending. It's reasonable to assume that the "above the rim within the cylinder" is meant to deal with bounces at the rim which could be ascending or descending in different phase of the bounces.

Imagine the trajectory of a still ascending ball above the rim. Under which circumstance can such a ball ever get in the basket?

I've seen cases where the ball was grabbed above the cylinder by an offensive player to dunk it even though it was not going in, but bounces that are tipped away by the defense aren't. I'm not sure if this is a question rules or just common practice.

 

[elindholm]

I have seen plenty attempted dunks blocked right above the rim within the "cylinder", it's either a foul or a block but never a goaltending.

That's because it's not out of the offensive player's hand(s) yet. There's something in the rule (I'm not going to look it up again) about how it has to be out of the player's hand before it's a field-goal attempt. (You can get fouled while in your "shooting motion," which is different.)

Imagine the trajectory of a still ascending ball above the rim. Under which circumstance can such a ball ever get in the basket?



The hoop is twice the diameter of the ball, and the ball can bounce off of the far side of the rim before going through. If it's a shot that starts from just outside the hoop, it's not difficult at all to meet the requirement.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Somehow, I'd guess that to count as a defensive goaltending before the ball hit either the board or the rim, the only revelant issue is ascending or descending. I have seen plenty attempted dunks blocked right above the rim within the "cylinder", it's either a foul or a block but never a goaltending. It's reasonable to assume that the "above the rim within the cylinder" is meant to deal with bounces at the rim which could be ascending or descending in different phase of the bounces.

Imagine the trajectory of a still ascending ball above the rim. Under which circumstance can such a ball ever get in the basket?

you'd guess seriously wrong and your dunk example is really far off. Why? On a dunk, the ball is still in the offensive player's hand! How the hell CAN it be goaltending? Goaltending is called once the ball LEAVES the offensive or defensive players hand - that is why a dunk - in which the ball is still in the player's hand - isn't goal-tending.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I've seen cases where the ball was grabbed above the cylinder by an offensive player to dunk it even though it was not going in, but bounces that are tipped away by the defense aren't.

I've seen that too - it's called a MISSED CALL - the first instance IS STILL GOALTENDING - but it's usually so close it's not called.

I can't believe how many people here don't know the rules for goaltending.

 

[cly2tw]

Another possible case: Toss the ball straight up while both of your hands holding the ball right above the rim. Well, it's easier to just dunk the ball, but it's possible.
But anyway, it's natural to allow a block to any still ascending ball before hitting any object after the initial release. Why should it artificially matter whether it's above the cylinder or not? It's more likely for the ascending ball above the rim to have no chance to get into the basket like most lob passes for dunks. Why artificially subject the refs to such potentially disputable judgements?

 

[mribnik]

I have seen plenty attempted dunks blocked right above the rim within the "cylinder", it's either a foul or a block but never a goaltending.

That's because it's not out of the offensive player's hand(s) yet. There's something in the rule (I'm not going to look it up again) about how it has to be out of the player's hand before it's a field-goal attempt. (You can get fouled while in your "shooting motion," which is different.)

Imagine the trajectory of a still ascending ball above the rim. Under which circumstance can such a ball ever get in the basket?



The hoop is twice the diameter of the ball, and the ball can bounce off of the far side of the rim before going through. If it's a shot that starts from just outside the hoop, it's not difficult at all to meet the requirement.

I was looking up the goaltending rules and also saw the rule for a FGA.
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_4.html?nav=ArticleList
Here it is...

Section XI-Field Goal Attempt
A field goal attempt is a player's attempt to shoot the ball into his basket for a field goal. The act of shooting starts when, in the official's judgment, the player has started his shooting motion and continues until the shooting motion ceases and he returns to a normal floor position. It is not essential that the ball leave the shooter's hand. His arm(s) might be held so that he cannot actually make an attempt. The term is also used to include the flight of the ball until it becomes dead or is touched by a player. A tap during a jump ball or rebound is not considered a field goal attempt. However, anytime a live ball is in flight from the playing court, the goal, if made, shall count, even if time expires or the official's whistle sounds. The field goal will not be scored if time on the game clock expires before the ball leaves the player's hand.

 

[sly fly]

(this is just a little smack)

I get this image of cheese and ouchie playing ball at the rec. You know, they got the headband thing going on. Throw in some elbow and knee pads to prevent the floor burns.

They get put on different teams most of the time, because neither can hit a free throw. Lots of hyperactive hacking. And, lord help everyone if there's a close call...

Cheese- "No, that ball was in the cylinder! It should count as a legal bucket."

Ouchie- C'mon, Rule 13221-b says any ball entering the airspace of said opponent shall be ruled untouchable!"

Cheese- "Liar."

Ouchie- "Stupidhead."

Cheese- "I'm telling mom!"

Thanks for spicing things up around here, guys. BTW, I call for a ban on the word "cylinder". That's just not right.

 

[Cheesebeef]

(this is just a little smack)

I get this image of cheese and ouchie playing ball at the rec. You know, they got the headband thing going on. Throw in some elbow and knee pads to prevent the floor burns.

They get put on different teams most of the time, because neither can hit a free throw. Lots of hyperactive hacking. And, lord help everyone if there's a close call...

Cheese- "No, that ball was in the cylinder! It should count as a legal bucket."

Ouchie- C'mon, Rule 13221-b says any ball entering the airspace of said opponent shall be ruled untouchable!"

Cheese- "Liar."

Ouchie- "Stupidhead."

Cheese- "I'm telling mom!"

Thanks for spicing things up around here, guys. BTW, I call for a ban on the word "cylinder". That's just not right.

agree with the "cylinder" ban - but Sly - nothing you can imagine is as bad as ALL the Ouchie and Cheese family members on the court at the same time - no headbands or knee bads, but you better believe back braces, knee braces, elbows to the head(Dad's speciality), tripping other players(my specialty), Barreling down the lane Barkley style only to throw a short layup up (Ouchie's specialty) and well - the other brother was the most consistent of us - but now he runs in mud. We don't bitch about callsmuch - mostly because we're too lazy to do so - but you better believe if someone's on the court is gonna get injured - it's gonna be one of us. Our mom was always petrified whenever we played together because inevitably, one of us would end up in the hospital.

In fact funny Ouchie story - so when Ouchie was captain of his high school football team at Camelback, back in the eighties, he and my Dad used to go atit pretty good. My Dad had this wicked Kevin McHale-like game at 6'0 - up and unders, elbows, jumpers - you name it and Ouchie was FINALLY beating him when my Dad fell over and hurt his arm. Upon deciding he copuldn't play anymore, Ouchie went around the house proclaiming his victory and new title holder of the Shapiro house-hold. In true Larry Bird style - my Dad - an orthopedic surgeon, took the ball away from him and went back on the court and then proceeded to beat my brother's ass. He then went to the hospital and had his severly-broken arm put in a cast for eight weeks.

As far as I'm concerned - my only problems on the court really only came with referees - (kind of a surprise seeing as I'm always giving people crap for bagging on them). On my high school team, I got kicked out of two games my junior year and led the team in T's. In fact in one game played up in Bagdad, AZ - yes - BAGDAD arizona - I was so furious with a ref at the end of the game when he gave free throws on a charge that I called him a f*cking ****** - he promptly kicked me out of the game - but after my coach talked to the other ref - they reversed the call and took away the free throws.

I also got my intramural squad put on probation for uttering my favorite phrase (see above) against the Pike house - I mean that game was just ridiculous - it was AEPi - a frat of little Jewish boys against what seemed like Hitler Youth - I'm talking blonde-haired, blue-eyed Giants and we were even playing the somewhat even (mostly because we had Mike Henry - the greatest Jewish practice squad player in Illini history) and after hitting a three to get us within 5 with 2 minutes left - I watched as my boy Henry stood on the court - basically growing roots when a Pike just MAULED his ass - got kicke dout of that game and we had to forfeit.

But all that was back in the day when I actually moved on the court (and even that was very little) - now I just sit by the Three-point line and jack'em - actually - kind of like Q - if I'm hot - I'll gun from five feet behind the line - if I'm not - watch yourself on the sidelines.

Okay - hijack time - what are other people like on the court and what player's style do you most emulate?

 

[sly fly]

Hehe, that's pretty funny. Your dad is a bad-ass. Gotta love the McHale "arm-bar".

Bagdad. Yeah, I know Bagdad. We played up there in high school. Carpet floor and all. Talk about floor burns.

They loved to hate me up there. A few fans started throwing candy bars at me, and I just laughed at them and continued to beat them and their hick town down. My coach hated me for loving the attention, but got over it when we beat the crap out of them. The police escort out of town was nice, as well.