My issue with DA

kerouac9

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Well, you're making an incorrect assumption here. I have seen Max Hall play several times in college. I have ABSOLUTELY no idea if he'll make it in the NFL. I'm not advocating he play because I'm in love with his game. Watching what went down this offseason, it seems to me the only way I can justify what our coach and FO have done is if THEY believe Hall can play.

If the bye week passes and DA remains DA and there's no sign of Hall I'm going to be at a loss to explain what this organization is doing/has done. I think DA is a horrible choice as our starter and the only saving grace is that he's not Matt Leinart.

Steve


Then let me tell you as someone who has seen Max Hall play against (kind of ) NFL talent that the kid is bad. He makes Jeff Garcia look like Daunte Culpepper. He just doesn't have the tools to play at this level. The Big Sky Conference is not the NFL.

Do you really believe that he's that bad and yet Whisenhunt chose to make him the #2 QB? That Whisenhunt sees him in OTA's, training camp and the preseason, sees that his arm is THAT bad, and still gets fooled into keeping him ahead of Leinart?

I know BYU is pass happy but the kid threw for 11,365 yards in 3 seasons there, 94 TD's, 40 picks. 65 percent 69 and 67 his last 2 years. He won 32 games in 3 seasons.

He could be a system guy except without him this year BYU is 1-2 and 101st in the country in passing yards per game(155 per). They're down about 4 YPA this year(2 QB's) to last year with Hall.

I think we all agree DA is a bad QB but I don't believe that Whiz thinks any differently, I think he simply felt DA was the best choice at the start of the year on a team that didn't believe in Matt, and had 2 rookies competing with DA. If Hall is as completely incapable of playing as you're saying, then we're to believe that Whisenhunt is either throwing the season, or completely incompetent.

Take a step back and ask yourself is it remotely possible that a coach THAT stupid,could take any team to a Super Bowl, let alone one of the losingest franchises in sports history? The guy isn't infallible no, but unless he had a lobotomy after last season I don't think he's as dumb as you seem to think he is.


If the choice is Max Hall or a disgruntled #7 and the possibility of a divided lockerroom, the you take the kid who can't play.

Cortez burned his ships when he reached the New World. Coach did the same when he turned the page on #7. If #7 were here and starting this week and did well, coach looks like a fool. Like Tom Cable or Andy Reid.

I agree except that I could comfortably substitute Hall's name for DA. Our defense and our running game and our weak division are the 3 main factors that will determine our season's fate. If this division comes down to who our QB is, chances are we're screwed anyway you cut it.

Steve

Every division comes down to QB. It almost always does.

We can win some games ugly with DA, or we can make every defense we play look like the 85 Bears D with Max Hall.
 

AzStevenCal

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Every division comes down to QB. It almost always does.

We can win some games ugly with DA, or we can make every defense we play look like the 85 Bears D with Max Hall.

There are always exceptions. Okay, we don't have the kind of defense that could typically overcome weak QB play. BUT, we play in one of the worst divisions ever. If the 49ers play down to their week one level, it's not going to take much to win it.

Whether we win the division or finish the season 3 - 13, this is not a good team. We know what we have in DA, why not find out what we have in Hall? And by we, I'm talking about the Cards staff not you and me. I don't want to go into next season with the same nightmare situation we're now facing at QB.

I think we have enough problems this year that my only real hope for this season is that we answer some questions. If we go into next year with the same issues at QB and both lines not to mention some fairly apparent coaching deficiences I'm not gonna be happy. And I like to be happy!

Steve
 

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There are always exceptions. Okay, we don't have the kind of defense that could typically overcome weak QB play. BUT, we play in one of the worst divisions ever. If the 49ers play down to their week one level, it's not going to take much to win it.

Whether we win the division or finish the season 3 - 13, this is not a good team. We know what we have in DA, why not find out what we have in Hall?[/] And by we, I'm talking about the Cards staff not you and me. I don't want to go into next season with the same nightmare situation we're now facing at QB.

I think we have enough problems this year that my only real hope for this season is that we answer some questions. If we go into next year with the same issues at QB and both lines not to mention some fairly apparent coaching deficiences I'm not gonna be happy. And I like to be happy!

Steve


Because starting Max Hall inhibits the development of player like Stephen Williams who might have a future in the NFL. Hall can only throw the ball 30 yards; not 30 yards downfield. 30 yards in any direction. That closes a lot of your playbook. Plus you'd hurt your run game and guys like Keith because no defense would respect you pass offense.

If the Cards pass on a first or second round quarterback because someone thinks Max Hall might be good, it might set the team back further than passing on Peterson.

The team knows what they have in Hall. That's why we didn't see him until it was 42-7.

How could the team look Steve Breaston in the eye if they put Hall in knowing it wasn't going to lead to wins?
 

kerouac9

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Bingo. Get the kid some work and provide more entertaining games.

Would you find losses like 28-6 "entertaining"? That's what the Max Hall Era would look like--against teams like Seattle, not Atlanta. BEFORE film gets out on him and opposing DCs can REALLY go after him.

Max Hall makes Josh McCown look like Dan Marino.
 
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Russ Smith

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Then let me tell you as someone who has seen Max Hall play against (kind of ) NFL talent that the kid is bad. He makes Jeff Garcia look like Daunte Culpepper. He just doesn't have the tools to play at this level. The Big Sky Conference is not the NFL.




If the choice is Max Hall or a disgruntled #7 and the possibility of a divided lockerroom, the you take the kid who can't play.

On the 2nd point i don't follow, by the time Matt was disgruntled, it had a lot to do with Max Hall playing so well in OTA's, camp and preseason. Matt wasn't disgruntled until DA got the start in the preseason, and from what Whiz said I believe that was largely because Whiz believed the team didn't believe in Matt.

I don't think Whiz hurt Matt's cred in the lockerroom, I think Whiz realized Matt had no cred in the lockerroom.

On the first point the problem is other than Austin Collie, Hall wasn't playing WITH NFL talent in college, so yeah if you saw him play against Utah his junior year 5 picks 0 TD's, he sucks. If you saw him play against UCLA(had Price and Verner and was supposed to have a good D) he threw 7 TD passes in a 59-0 blowout.

If you're going to judge a guy against NFL style talent, you also have to take into account what talent he had to play WITH. BYU had 1 player drafted last year(Dennis Pitta), they had 2 drafted the year before, Collie and a RB. They also lost 3 starters on their OL who were all UDFA's 2 years ago. Hall took a team replacing Collie and 3 OL starters and put up 33 TD's and went 11-2.

If you only saw him play against Utah you'd think he was horrible, 2 years in a row had bad games against them.

I'm just assuming that Whiz didn't decide to make Max the #2 QB entirely to spite Matt Leinart.
 

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Would you find losses like 28-6 "entertaining"? That's what the Max Hall Era would look like--against teams like Seattle, not Atlanta. BEFORE film gets out on him and opposing DCs can REALLY go after him.

Max Hall makes Josh McCown look like Dan Marino.


No way K-9.

Look at Peter Kings MMQB column for the week before the start of the regular season:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/09/05/mmqb/1.html

Here's the teaser:

Summing up, Leinart's a goner for these reasons: He wasn't accurate enough; he didn't make quick decisions on the field and execute them well; he never won the locker room over; coach Ken Whisenhunt thought he wouldn't be a good backup to Derek Anderson because he'd be so bummed by not winning the job he thought was surely his. And one more reason. Max Hall. You'll read about him a little lower in this column. You'll want to get to know him. Take my word for it.

Later on the column, King raves about Hall, about his record at BYU, and about football acumen.

K9, you're pretty smart man, but I'll take King's word over yours, all day, every day. :p

If Anderson keeps stinking up the field, I say fire Hall out there for the hags game. Let's see if the kid can jump start the offense. King thinks he's got a shot.
 

kerouac9

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On the 2nd point i don't follow, by the time Matt was disgruntled, it had a lot to do with Max Hall playing so well in OTA's, camp and preseason. Matt wasn't disgruntled until DA got the start in the preseason, and from what Whiz said I believe that was largely because Whiz believed the team didn't believe in Matt.

I don't think Whiz hurt Matt's cred in the lockerroom, I think Whiz realized Matt had no cred in the lockerroom.

On the first point the problem is other than Austin Collie, Hall wasn't playing WITH NFL talent in college, so yeah if you saw him play against Utah his junior year 5 picks 0 TD's, he sucks. If you saw him play against UCLA(had Price and Verner and was supposed to have a good D) he threw 7 TD passes in a 59-0 blowout.

If you're going to judge a guy against NFL style talent, you also have to take into account what talent he had to play WITH. BYU had 1 player drafted last year(Dennis Pitta), they had 2 drafted the year before, Collie and a RB. They also lost 3 starters on their OL who were all UDFA's 2 years ago. Hall took a team replacing Collie and 3 OL starters and put up 33 TD's and went 11-2.

If you only saw him play against Utah you'd think he was horrible, 2 years in a row had bad games against them.

I'm just assuming that Whiz didn't decide to make Max the #2 QB entirely to spite Matt Leinart.

How did #7 going to the media have anything to do with Max Hall being good in OTAs? That doesn't make any sense at all. #7 would be the starting quarterback right now if he didn't turn back and talk to the media that day. I firmly believe that.

That being said, if #7 were still on the roster, don't you think there'd be turmoil in the media and maybe in the lockerroom right now? Maybe the team didn't believe that #7 could win games, but now they know that Derek Anderson isn't going to win games for them, and will probably lose some. Even "Captain Checkdown" would have converted one third down last weekend. There would be a lot of eyes turning to #7 if he were still here. There aren't a lot of eyes turning to Max Hall right now, which is a good thing for Ken Whisenhunt.

When I said NFL competition I was meaning in the preseason in games that weren't against the fourth and fifth teams of the Washington Redskins. Maybe you didn't get to watch those games, but Max Hall looked impressive on the stat sheet, but not to someone who can see how that kind of play will translate against the #1s around the NFL. He'd be eaten alive against this level of competition because he doesn't have the arm to get the ball there in time.

I don't think that Whis moved Hall to #2 to spite #7. I didn't say that. You know I didn't. Whis installed Hall as the backup because he couldn't keep #7 as the backup and there was no one else on the roster to fill that role. It was that or go into the regular season with 2 QBs--one of whom played at Fordham last year.
 

kerouac9

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No way K-9.

Look at Peter Kings MMQB column for the week before the start of the regular season:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/09/05/mmqb/1.html

Here's the teaser:

Summing up, Leinart's a goner for these reasons: He wasn't accurate enough; he didn't make quick decisions on the field and execute them well; he never won the locker room over; coach Ken Whisenhunt thought he wouldn't be a good backup to Derek Anderson because he'd be so bummed by not winning the job he thought was surely his. And one more reason. Max Hall. You'll read about him a little lower in this column. You'll want to get to know him. Take my word for it.

Later on the column, King raves about Hall, about his record at BYU, and about football acumen.

K9, you're pretty smart man, but I'll take King's word over yours, all day, every day. :p

If Anderson keeps stinking up the field, I say fire Hall out there for the hags game. Let's see if the kid can jump start the offense. King thinks he's got a shot.

CW--Peter King is a carnival barker who has no accountability for when his columns go wrong. Sorry if I don't really care whether Max Hall hates Utah and their fans. I read the article. I'll take what I've seen on the field and heard from people in camp over Peter King's wet dream. Max Hall sucks.
 

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CW--Peter King is a carnival barker who has no accountability for when his columns go wrong. Sorry if I don't really care whether Max Hall hates Utah and their fans. I read the article. I'll take what I've seen on the field and heard from people in camp over Peter King's wet dream. Max Hall sucks.

:lmao:
 
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Russ Smith

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How did #7 going to the media have anything to do with Max Hall being good in OTAs? That doesn't make any sense at all. #7 would be the starting quarterback right now if he didn't turn back and talk to the media that day. I firmly believe that.

That being said, if #7 were still on the roster, don't you think there'd be turmoil in the media and maybe in the lockerroom right now? Maybe the team didn't believe that #7 could win games, but now they know that Derek Anderson isn't going to win games for them, and will probably lose some. Even "Captain Checkdown" would have converted one third down last weekend. There would be a lot of eyes turning to #7 if he were still here. There aren't a lot of eyes turning to Max Hall right now, which is a good thing for Ken Whisenhunt.

When I said NFL competition I was meaning in the preseason in games that weren't against the fourth and fifth teams of the Washington Redskins. Maybe you didn't get to watch those games, but Max Hall looked impressive on the stat sheet, but not to someone who can see how that kind of play will translate against the #1s around the NFL. He'd be eaten alive against this level of competition because he doesn't have the arm to get the ball there in time.

I don't think that Whis moved Hall to #2 to spite #7. I didn't say that. You know I didn't. Whis installed Hall as the backup because he couldn't keep #7 as the backup and there was no one else on the roster to fill that role. It was that or go into the regular season with 2 QBs--one of whom played at Fordham last year.

Matt was unhappy because he got demoted. He got demoted because the coach didn't think the team believed he could do the job(among other things).

Demoting Matt didn't cause the team to lose faith in him, apparently they already had. And one of the reasons Whiz felt he could demote Matt, knowing full well Matt might want out if he did, was because Max Hall impressed him so much.

I watched every preseason game, I saw virtually every snap Max Hall took. I also know that Whiz is not the only person who disagrees with you about Max Hall, so does Jon Gruden, so does Ron Jaworski, so does Steve Young, so apparently does Billick(he mentioned today on NFL Net he thinks Hall will take the job from DA because he's picked up the system so quickly.)

They might all be wrong, but if it's so obvious that Max can't make the throws to play in the NFL, how come so many people who earn a living from the NFL seem to think he can?

If it was just Whiz that would be obvious, he's practicing CYA, but a lot of people who don't care if Whiz looks bad or not are agreeing with him.

Dan Arkush of PFW said a "Cardinal Insider" told him they would rather not start Hall right now but he will be the frontrunner to start in 2011. That the Cards were so excited by Hall that it played a role in them deciding to release Leinart. They are apparently polar opposites, Hall is very self confident, in your face, Matt wasn't, apparently their teammates picked up on that and it played a big role in Matt's demotion(again the team didn't believe in him). Arkush quotes him as saying he doesn't have a great arm, but it's good enough.

Mike Sando who everyone seems to like here is on record predicting Hall will start at some point this year.

It's not just because everybody believes DA can't play, it's because people believe Max Hall CAN play.

He'll make mistakes, he threw too many picks in college, he takes chances, but everyone that talks about the kid says the same thing he sees the game at a different speed than most rookie QB's, he's old for a rookie and he plays older than a rookie.
 

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I agree that Max Hall will probably start games this season. I just don't think that he'll play well or win any games this season.

Gruden, Billick, Jaworski--they all get their information from the same person: Their meeting with Ken Whisenhunt. Do you really think these three guys sit around watching film of third quarters in 2nd preseason games? Really? Or do you think they're parroting what they hear from Coach (a guy I'm sure they respect), and accentuating the positives?

Steve Young is related to Max Hall. They went to the same school. OF COURSE he has nice things to say about him.

It's because Derek Anderson CAN'T play and once everyone in the NFL has figured that out, what other option will the team have to keep anyone interested?
 
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Russ Smith

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I agree that Max Hall will probably start games this season. I just don't think that he'll play well or win any games this season.

Gruden, Billick, Jaworski--they all get their information from the same person: Their meeting with Ken Whisenhunt. Do you really think these three guys sit around watching film of third quarters in 2nd preseason games? Really? Or do you think they're parroting what they hear from Coach (a guy I'm sure they respect), and accentuating the positives?

Steve Young is related to Max Hall. They went to the same school. OF COURSE he has nice things to say about him.

It's because Derek Anderson CAN'T play and once everyone in the NFL has figured that out, what other option will the team have to keep anyone interested?

You really think that Billick, Gruden and Jaws would just parrot what someone told them? Is that really the MO for ESPN or NFLnet, if anything it's the opposite, they seem to like to be contradictory, they like to be controversial.

I assume you're kidding about Young being related to Hall, Max is related to Danny White, but I sure haven't seen anything before about him being related to Young. And again, if it were just Young sure it'd be easy to say he's just sticking up for a BYU guy, but Billick didn't go to BYU, Gruden didn't, Jaworski didn't. IIRC King originally said the Cards were trying to keep Hall secret because they wanted to stash him on the practice squad but they realized he was just too good and there was no way they could play him in preseason games and not lose him to another team.

During our preseason game that was national they told us they watched film on Hall because everyone was raving about him, so yes I think they watched film on him. They got to see him in person for that game too. They were talking about Fitzpatrick in Buffalo today and Steve Young ripped the decision, he said they had 7 months to decide Edwards was the guy and 2 weeks later they think Fitzpatrick is? He completely disagreed with the Buffalo coaches decision, shouldn't he have just parroted what the coach said when he made the switch?



On the last point that makes no sense at all. the obvious answer to once they figure out DA can't play is not to hype Max Hall, it's to make a big deal out of how stupid it was to cut Matt Leinart. That's the low hanging fruit and if Hall was that obviously incapable of playing in the NFL that's what all the NFL media would be focusing on, how could the 2 time defending division champs be dumb enough to cut Leinart with no viable replacement? Several of the ESPN talking heads disagreed with the decision initially, what better point to make now than see I told you so.

I'm sure Max will make mistakes when he plays but it won't be because he can't throw the ball more than 30 yards and simply lacks the necessary arm to play in the NFL. if that were true he wouldn't have made it out of OTA's.
If Whiz can cut Cody Brown without ever seeing him in a regular season game I'm betting he'd cut a UDFA QB if his arm was simply not NFL caliber.

I wish we'd kept Matt too, but honestly I think we'd be having the same discussions now, it's clear the coaching staff thinks Max Hall is going to be better than Matt Leinart.
 

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Matt was unhappy because he got demoted. He got demoted because the coach didn't think the team believed he could do the job(among other things).

Demoting Matt didn't cause the team to lose faith in him, apparently they already had. And one of the reasons Whiz felt he could demote Matt, knowing full well Matt might want out if he did, was because Max Hall impressed him so much.

I watched every preseason game, I saw virtually every snap Max Hall took. I also know that Whiz is not the only person who disagrees with you about Max Hall, so does Jon Gruden, so does Ron Jaworski, so does Steve Young, so apparently does Billick(he mentioned today on NFL Net he thinks Hall will take the job from DA because he's picked up the system so quickly.)

They might all be wrong, but if it's so obvious that Max can't make the throws to play in the NFL, how come so many people who earn a living from the NFL seem to think he can?

If it was just Whiz that would be obvious, he's practicing CYA, but a lot of people who don't care if Whiz looks bad or not are agreeing with him.

Dan Arkush of PFW said a "Cardinal Insider" told him they would rather not start Hall right now but he will be the frontrunner to start in 2011. That the Cards were so excited by Hall that it played a role in them deciding to release Leinart. They are apparently polar opposites, Hall is very self confident, in your face, Matt wasn't, apparently their teammates picked up on that and it played a big role in Matt's demotion(again the team didn't believe in him). Arkush quotes him as saying he doesn't have a great arm, but it's good enough.

Mike Sando who everyone seems to like here is on record predicting Hall will start at some point this year.

It's not just because everybody believes DA can't play, it's because people believe Max Hall CAN play.

He'll make mistakes, he threw too many picks in college, he takes chances, but everyone that talks about the kid says the same thing he sees the game at a different speed than most rookie QB's, he's old for a rookie and he plays older than a rookie.

I think this is the most accurate assessment of the QB situation. Kudos, Russ!

Many think it was DA who pushed ML out.

It was Hall.

Add to the Hall bandwagon: Peter King, Chris Mortensen & Mel Kiper. Go see what Mel had to say on the NFL "Rumors" page of ESPN Insider. Mel captured it perfectly.

What Mel alluded to were Hall's accuracy, his nifty mobility and his maturity...the "right fit" in Whiz's offense, a triple-threat that spells winner.
 
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Russ Smith

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I think this is the most accurate assessment of the QB situation. Kudos, Russ!

Many think it was DA who pushed ML out.

It was Hall.

Add to the Hall bandwagon: Peter King, Chris Mortensen & Mel Kiper. Go see what Mel had to say on the NFL "Rumors" page of ESPN Insider. Mel captured it perfectly.

What Mel alluded to were Hall's accuracy, his nifty mobility and his maturity...the "right fit" in Whiz's offense, a triple-threat that spells winner.

I don't have Insider but in a chat after Max made the team Kiper said that he always liked Hall and felt he was underrated before the draft. In hindsight he says it appeared he was very underrated.

Gil Brandt likes Hall too. Said he knew NFL people who had Hall rated higher than Colt McCoy.

One of the bleacher report guys had Hall as his 3rd QB in the draft this year.

Mayock said Bradford was the only QB in the draft that was more accurate than Hall.

I think people are somewhat wrong when they say Hall runs well, I think what he does is buy time and keep his eyes downfield. What he'll learn is in the NFL it's harder to do that and get away with it, some of those extended plays that worked at BYU will result in INT's or taking big hits in the NFL.

That's my main concern with Max Hall, is he physically capable of taking the pounding NFL QB's get, especially with Brown and Keith at Tackle.
 

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I agree that Max Hall will probably start games this season. I just don't think that he'll play well or win any games this season.

Gruden, Billick, Jaworski--they all get their information from the same person: Their meeting with Ken Whisenhunt. Do you really think these three guys sit around watching film of third quarters in 2nd preseason games? Really? Or do you think they're parroting what they hear from Coach (a guy I'm sure they respect), and accentuating the positives?

Steve Young is related to Max Hall. They went to the same school. OF COURSE he has nice things to say about him.

It's because Derek Anderson CAN'T play and once everyone in the NFL has figured that out, what other option will the team have to keep anyone interested?

I dont neccessarily believe in Max Hall, but how can you bag on Hall's arm while defending Leinart's? There is probably very little if any diffference in these two arms....
 

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I agree that Max Hall will probably start games this season. I just don't think that he'll play well or win any games this season.

Gruden, Billick, Jaworski--they all get their information from the same person: Their meeting with Ken Whisenhunt. Do you really think these three guys sit around watching film of third quarters in 2nd preseason games? Really? Or do you think they're parroting what they hear from Coach (a guy I'm sure they respect), and accentuating the positives?

Steve Young is related to Max Hall. They went to the same school. OF COURSE he has nice things to say about him.

It's because Derek Anderson CAN'T play and once everyone in the NFL has figured that out, what other option will the team have to keep anyone interested?

I don't believe Steve Young is related to Max Hall but I do know his Uncle is Danny White.

Oops sorry...didn't read the whole thread before I posted this and see that Russ already did.
 

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