My issue with DA

[AzStevenCal]

I've heard this no one on the team arguement a couple times and while it's true Boldin hinted it was personal.

Unless I missed a comment from Boldin I think you're drawing an inference here that isn't necessarily accurate. All I took from Boldin's comment was an acknowledgement that there was history involved. It didn't have to mean that it was personal. Boldin was here when Leinart's work ethic issues were being bandied about in the media and it's quite possible that's all he's referring to.

Steve

 

[Russ Smith]

Actually Tim Hightower stuck up for him right after the Bears game saying something like "Say what you want about Matt, he has taken a lot of heat, but he played lights out and marched us right down the field and played lights out tonight."

Thinking any player would come out and say "Leinart is our guy" knowing Whisenhunt's feelings in the matter is not realistic. You don't battle the HC and win. Boldin's statements are dead on.

My experience is it happens all the time. When SF had QB issues with Smith either hurt or struggling, there were always rumblings in the paper that the team was split some supporting Smith, some supporting the other QB(O'Sullivan and later Shaun Hill).

Right now the Raiders have the issue with Campbell and Gradkowski.

When the perception in the locker room is that there are 2 QB's capable of playing, there tends to be division, I don't get the impression people thought that here. I don't think players really believed Matt was capable of being the guy, I think the guys that had been here and played with Matt, weren't confident in him.

I don't totally agree mind you I think he was capable, but I think the coaches picked up that the players didn't agree.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Actually Tim Hightower stuck up for him right after the Bears game saying something like "Say what you want about Matt, he has taken a lot of heat, but he played lights out and marched us right down the field and played lights out tonight."

Thinking any player would come out and say "Leinart is our guy" knowing Whisenhunt's feelings in the matter is not realistic. You don't battle the HC and win. Boldin's statements are dead on.

Boldin's the truth, huh? Ever heard the saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"? Well, that's what Q is. He's a woman scorned who saw his first opportunity to throw Wiz (who he definitely had a problem with) under the bus and took it. I'll take whatever he has to say with a TRUCK LOAD of grains of salt.

And of course no one would just come out and say "Leinart is our guy"... but you can bet your ass that in today's media, there would have been SOME unnamed source quoted as saying that if ANYONE believed it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

My experience is it happens all the time. When SF had QB issues with Smith either hurt or struggling, there were always rumblings in the paper that the team was split some supporting Smith, some supporting the other QB(O'Sullivan and later Shaun Hill).

Right now the Raiders have the issue with Campbell and Gradkowski.

When the perception in the locker room is that there are 2 QB's capable of playing, there tends to be division, I don't get the impression people thought that here. I don't think players really believed Matt was capable of being the guy, I think the guys that had been here and played with Matt, weren't confident in him.

I don't totally agree mind you I think he was capable, but I think the coaches picked up that the players didn't agree.

agreed as well. no rumblings whatsoever in today's media finds out EVERYTHING age? Sorry. That doesn't hold water.

 

[nashman]

Well if the cheese thinks lienart sucks this must be fact! How dare anyone question this. Give me a break when all is said and done leinart will have a better career than DA it's just too bad it will be somewhere else while yet again we have no QB worth a crap!

 

[conraddobler]

Just to be clear, I was not in favor dumping Matt either. I would have started Matt and dumped DA if I believed Hall was for real(if I were Whiz).

I'm just trying to reason out why he did what he did, I think he just decided the team was ok with Matt as long as Kurt was around, but when Kurt was gone, the team didn't believe in Matt.

Oh I know what you were trying to say and I agree, if there was any support of Matt it was luke warm at best and that's probably being generous.

However there's more than one way to look at that.

If you agree and don't like Matt personally or professionally as a coach that's only going to make it easier to do what Whis did.

On the other hand even if you feel the players could be right and even if you feel that in fact that might be the truth, the smart play, the one that increases your chances of remaining a HC is to do what I outlined and take a chance that Skelton won't clear waivers.

Because in that scenario, you get to let Matt fail and you remove yourself from owning the DA problem in total.

Let's run through a couple scenarios here.

You do what I said, we end up with Matt, DA, Hall and Skelton on the practice squad, you start Matt, the team dosen't believe and we go from there and Matt goes down in flames.

NO ONE really questions YOU.

Now say you do all the above and surprise Matt earns the teams confidence and works out, YOU get SOME of that credit, probably more than you deserve.

Now say you do it Whis's way and DA stinks to high heavens, you just blew your own foot off for largely no real reason.

I can't see how we don't win the Rams game with either QB and we probably lose the Atlanta game either way and this will go on through the first few games, where either QB wouldn't probably be the difference, they could be but it's not looking like DA would be more so than Matt.

So for all this bluster, we gained nothing IMO and instead Whis has heaped a ton of blame onto himself that didn't need to be there.

Any ideas that capatain team chemistry would make the players play harder got blown out the window in the Atlanta game, if Matt played and they did bong hits on the 40 would be the ONLY way I could have seen less effort or motivation IMO.

We can't really tell what's going on in truth but all indications I've seen so far have shaken my faith in Whis making smart decisons, absent something really earth shattering comming to light we don't know now, I think it was a dumb move.

 

[nashman]

Agree 100% conrad

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well if the cheese thinks lienart sucks this must be fact! How dare anyone question this.

huh? You have every right to question it and I have every right to offer reasons to prove you wrong. Sheesh. Why the above?

Give me a break when all is said and done leinart will have a better career than DA it's just too bad it will be somewhere else while yet again we have no QB worth a crap!

I guess we'll just have to wait and see on Matt. I'm not even saying he's always gonna suck. I just think his time here was done and he never did anything to claim the job as his own. Hell, I even just read something in the SI preview issue at the doctor's office today where Fitz asked him to come up to his WR camp and Matt said no, they'd have plenty of time to practice later. Uh... that sucks.

 

[CardLogic]

I even just read something in the SI preview issue at the doctor's office today where Fitz asked him to come up to his WR camp and Matt said no, they'd have plenty of time to practice later. Uh... that sucks.

Interesting. This is the just the tip of the iceberg kind of stuff that we haven't heard up until now. There was more behind the Cardinals decision than what has been exposed so far.

Word is Fitz and Whiz have a good relationship, the above probably got back to Whiz and was just another nail in the coffin of Leinart's Cardinals tenure.

For all we know, Leinart could be an arrogant jackass that few if any of his teammates could stand. I am not making the statement that he is, but we just don't know.
If that were the case, it is easier to grasp why the Cardinals may have chosen to go into the season with a lesser talent, but a team player.

 

[daves]

And of course no one would just come out and say "Leinart is our guy"... but you can bet your ass that in today's media, there would have been SOME unnamed source quoted as saying that if ANYONE believed it.

Indeed, of course no current player will say, on the record, that he supported Leinart. But now that Leinart's gone, there's no reason for them not to say something in support of Anderson. Yet there's not been one peep or quote from an unnamed source saying "I'm glad Anderson got the job".

This implies that either (a) nobody wants to say anything either way to fuel the controversy, thus you can't really read anything into the lack of explicit support for Leinart, or (b) nobody likes Anderson very much either. Both explanations are eminently plausible. But neither supports the contention that the team preferred Anderson over Leinart.

Regarding Boldin's statement, i didn't read any hint of animosity toward the Cardinals into it, nor did i read it as throwing Whisenhunt under the bus for making decisions based on personal animosity towards Leinart. I'm more inclined to agree with this take:

... Boldin's comment was an acknowledgement that there was history involved. It didn't have to mean that it was personal. Boldin was here when Leinart's work ethic issues were being bandied about in the media and it's quite possible that's all he's referring to.

The bottom line for me is that i'm tremendously disappointed that Whisenhunt didn't believe that Leinart had the potential that most of us hoped for based on his college career, measurables, and modest early success - but i trust that if Whisenhunt didn't see it, it probably wasn't there for the Cardinals and it probably wasn't just personal.

But "Scud" (love that, BTW) is a nightmare. With him as QB, there's almost no hope for the season. I would've preferred to see Leinart given the chance to sink or swim as the starter this year. He would've either proven to everyone that he can lead the Cardinals to the playoffs, or he would've proven that he isn't good enough, in which case i think we'd all be a lot more comfortable with a switch to Hall. Once Hall's potential was recognized, Anderson's the one who became superfluous.

Or Leinart might've been hurt behind this O-line, though i think accurate dump-offs and screens, and Leinart's moderate mobility would've made the offense a lot more effective than having the Scud holding onto the ball, firing off in the general vicinity of where a Cardinal player might be expected to be, then getting pummeled.

...dave

 

[daves]

I even just read something in the SI preview issue at the doctor's office today where Fitz asked him to come up to his WR camp and Matt said no, they'd have plenty of time to practice later. Uh... that sucks.

Heh, i thought i remembered that Leinart was there, so i found the SI article online. That's not quite what Leinart said:

Fitzgerald invited Leinart, the 10th pick in the 2006 draft and Warner's backup for the last two years, to join him at his wideouts camp in Minnesota this off-season, but Leinart declined because he wanted to work out in the Los Angeles area and be closer to his son. "Everything will be fine," Leinart said during camp. "I've been throwing passes to Larry for five years."

It's frustrating to find that Leinart didn't attend the camp. That could've been a key factor in the derailment of his entire career. I guess Leinart gets some kind of pass for wanting to be closer to his kid, but as a fan i sure wish the personal issues he created for himself hadn't affected his potential productivity on the field, no matter how slightly.


The article also has an interesting take on the pass Leinart threw in preseason on the play where Fitzgerald got injured. Fitz seems to believe just the opposite of those who like to claim that Leinart's "bad pass" contributed to Fitz' injury:

LARRY FITZGERALD lined up to the far left of the formation during the Cardinals' preseason opener against the Texans on Aug. 14, leaned forward and burst off the line at the snap of the ball. He sprinted about 15 yards downfield and cut sharply toward the middle as quarterback Matt Leinart zipped a pass toward him.

But the ball was a bit too far in front of Fitzgerald, who had to reach up and out to get it. In hindsight it may have been the best "bad" ball Leinart has ever thrown, because it possibly saved Fitzgerald from a season-ending knee injury. The four-time Pro Bowl wideout's right cleat was off the turf when Houston safety Eugene Wilson came in low and delivered a crunching blow just above his right knee. There was some give in the joint on contact, but it resulted only in a sprained knee ligament instead of a torn one.

Considering the "Captain Checkdown" appellation with which Florio shackled Leinart in the preseason (i've yet to see any other source for the claim that the nickname had become widespread), this part of the article is ironic (and not necessarily accurate):

Warner relied on timing and intuition and a largely intermediate passing game that allowed receivers to run with the ball after the catch. But Leinart is more of a downfield passer. He has a stronger arm and is more willing to take chances.

...dave

 

[AzStevenCal]

But "Scud" (love that, BTW) is a nightmare. With him as QB, there's almost no hope for the season. I would've preferred to see Leinart given the chance to sink or swim as the starter this year. He would've either proven to everyone that he can lead the Cardinals to the playoffs, or he would've proven that he isn't good enough, in which case i think we'd all be a lot more comfortable with a switch to Hall. Once Hall's potential was recognized, Anderson's the one who became superfluous.

...dave

Everyone is falling in love with that nickname and I can't blame them. After 2 preseason games I thought Captain Checkdown and General Disaster covered the two of them but now that Matt has moved on it loses some of it's meaning.

I agree our future is dim with DA but I don't see it as much different with Leinart. I still believe that Whiz intends to move Hall in as a starter at the bye week. IF that happens, the release of Leinart makes even more sense as it was pretty obvious he would not have been a happy camper as a backup to an undrafted rookie QB.

IMO, DA has 3 more games to try and show he can be effective and if he fails the DA experiment will be over. Over, at least, until week 8 when Hall gets his leg broken while running for his life. Honestly, looking at our QB situation, our O-line problems and our inability to stop the run, I'm not sure how much longer I can call myself a Kool-Aider.

Steve

 

[kerouac9]

Everyone is falling in love with that nickname and I can't blame them. After 2 preseason games I thought Captain Checkdown and General Disaster covered the two of them but now that Matt has moved on it loses some of it's meaning.

I agree our future is dim with DA but I don't see it as much different with Leinart. I still believe that Whiz intends to move Hall in as a starter at the bye week. IF that happens, the release of Leinart makes even more sense as it was pretty obvious he would not have been a happy camper as a backup to an undrafted rookie QB.

IMO, DA has 3 more games to try and show he can be effective and if he fails the DA experiment will be over. Over, at least, until week 8 when Hall gets his leg broken while running for his life. Honestly, looking at our QB situation, our O-line problems and our inability to stop the run, I'm not sure how much longer I can call myself a Kool-Aider.

Steve

Ah... the words of someone who has never seen Max Hall play. I understand more how people who have only heard Wolfley's praise of Max Hall (remember the glowing words about Brandon Keith and Langston Moore?) would think that Max Hall is good.

He's not. Inserting Max Hall into the starting lineup at any point is an admission that you're not interested in winning anymore games or getting any of the other players on the offense developed. He's bad.

 

[Pariah]

He's not. Inserting Max Hall into the starting lineup at any point is an admission that you're not interested in winning anymore games or getting any of the other players on the offense developed. He's bad.

I truly believe the same could be said of Anderson. I'm dumbfounded that he was signed with the "team" being so displeased with #7.

At least starting Hall (or Skelton) is a show of hope, a show that the team is willing to take a chance that they can be better than Anderson. ... If they're not, they're not. We're no worse off, IMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I truly believe the same could be said of Anderson. I'm dumbfounded that he was signed with the "team" being so displeased with #7.

At least starting Hall (or Skelton) is a show of hope, a show that the team is willing to take a chance that they can be better than Anderson. ... If they're not, they're not. We're no worse off, IMO.

as unbelievably bad as Anderson is, I think we do get worse... A LOT worse with some under-sized rookie we grabbed off the undrafted scrap heap. With Anderson, I see us probably winning another 4 games... maybe 3... putting us at 4-12 or 5-11. A lot of very good coaches have had these down years. You put Max Hall in and I'd be surprised if we won another game. Maybe we'd win 1. But I know this 2-14 doesn't show we're better off. That's a number that destroys franchises.

 

[kerouac9]

I truly believe the same could be said of Anderson. I'm dumbfounded that he was signed with the "team" being so displeased with #7.

At least starting Hall (or Skelton) is a show of hope, a show that the team is willing to take a chance that they can be better than Anderson. ... If they're not, they're not. We're no worse off, IMO.

I don't think so. Hall doesn't have an arm. If you're forced to play him, then you have to close down 2/3 of the field and roll him out to get to a player on an out or flag route, otherwise the ball will flutter in the air for 4 seconds until a defender finally plucks it down.

The hope of starting Max Hall will last maybe a quarter. People are placing a lot of faith in garbage time versus a disinterested bunch of Washington players who were at the bottom of the roster, anyway.

I think this team can win games with Derek Anderson--just not many of them. I don't think the team can win any games with Max Hall. None.

 

[Pariah]

The hope of starting Max Hall will last maybe a quarter.

Then there's absolutely no risk in starting him and getting the fanbase behind Anderson.

There are people talking about what the Eagles are doing with Kilb and Vick is similar. Kolb wouln't be able to get anything done with the spectre of Vick looming, so they'll let Vick play out his popularity and bring in Kolb when that "threat" has passed. ... not a perfect parallel, but it has similarities.

Anyway, to um up my thoughts and then I think I'll just shut my mouth about it for the rest of the season: Hall/Skelton MIGHT suck, but we know Anderson does.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ah... the words of someone who has never seen Max Hall play. I understand more how people who have only heard Wolfley's praise of Max Hall (remember the glowing words about Brandon Keith and Langston Moore?) would think that Max Hall is good.

He's not. Inserting Max Hall into the starting lineup at any point is an admission that you're not interested in winning anymore games or getting any of the other players on the offense developed. He's bad.

Well, you're making an incorrect assumption here. I have seen Max Hall play several times in college. I have ABSOLUTELY no idea if he'll make it in the NFL. I'm not advocating he play because I'm in love with his game. Watching what went down this offseason, it seems to me the only way I can justify what our coach and FO have done is if THEY believe Hall can play.

If the bye week passes and DA remains DA and there's no sign of Hall I'm going to be at a loss to explain what this organization is doing/has done. I think DA is a horrible choice as our starter and the only saving grace is that he's not Matt Leinart.

Steve

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't think so. Hall doesn't have an arm. If you're forced to play him, then you have to close down 2/3 of the field and roll him out to get to a player on an out or flag route, otherwise the ball will flutter in the air for 4 seconds until a defender finally plucks it down.

The hope of starting Max Hall will last maybe a quarter. People are placing a lot of faith in garbage time versus a disinterested bunch of Washington players who were at the bottom of the roster, anyway.

I think this team can win games with Derek Anderson--just not many of them. I don't think the team can win any games with Max Hall. None.

Do you really believe that he's that bad and yet Whisenhunt chose to make him the #2 QB? That Whisenhunt sees him in OTA's, training camp and the preseason, sees that his arm is THAT bad, and still gets fooled into keeping him ahead of Leinart?

I know BYU is pass happy but the kid threw for 11,365 yards in 3 seasons there, 94 TD's, 40 picks. 65 percent 69 and 67 his last 2 years. He won 32 games in 3 seasons.

He could be a system guy except without him this year BYU is 1-2 and 101st in the country in passing yards per game(155 per). They're down about 4 YPA this year(2 QB's) to last year with Hall.

I think we all agree DA is a bad QB but I don't believe that Whiz thinks any differently, I think he simply felt DA was the best choice at the start of the year on a team that didn't believe in Matt, and had 2 rookies competing with DA. If Hall is as completely incapable of playing as you're saying, then we're to believe that Whisenhunt is either throwing the season, or completely incompetent.

Take a step back and ask yourself is it remotely possible that a coach THAT stupid,could take any team to a Super Bowl, let alone one of the losingest franchises in sports history? The guy isn't infallible no, but unless he had a lobotomy after last season I don't think he's as dumb as you seem to think he is.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Do you really believe that he's that bad and yet Whisenhunt chose to make him the #2 QB? That Whisenhunt sees him in OTA's, training camp and the preseason, sees that his arm is THAT bad, and still gets fooled into keeping him ahead of Leinart?

I know BYU is pass happy but the kid threw for 11,365 yards in 3 seasons there, 94 TD's, 40 picks. 65 percent 69 and 67 his last 2 years. He won 32 games in 3 seasons.

He could be a system guy except without him this year BYU is 1-2 and 101st in the country in passing yards per game(155 per). They're down about 4 YPA this year(2 QB's) to last year with Hall.

I think we all agree DA is a bad QB but I don't believe that Whiz thinks any differently, I think he simply felt DA was the best choice at the start of the year on a team that didn't believe in Matt, and had 2 rookies competing with DA. If Hall is as completely incapable of playing as you're saying, then we're to believe that Whisenhunt is either throwing the season, or completely incompetent.

Take a step back and ask yourself is it remotely possible that a coach THAT stupid,could take any team to a Super Bowl, let alone one of the losingest franchises in sports history? The guy isn't infallible no, but unless he had a lobotomy after last season I don't think he's as dumb as you seem to think he is.

+1

Steve

 

[CardLogic]

I really can't believe that intelligent people think that Max Hall is the answer for the Cardinals THIS YEAR.

I'm with cheese and k9 on this - the only way Hall is considered for a start is if Anderson is physically unable to play. With Hall as starting QB the Cardinals would not win more than 3 games all year, that's with one already in the bag.

Edit: there is one other scenario that Hall may get a start - if the Cardinals are eliminated from post-season play. In that case, they may want to get Hall or ever Skelton some work.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

not if the majority of locker room thought he was a heartless self-entitled pretty boy who thought he could buy their loyalty with a trip to Hawaii. Not saying that's absolutely what happened, but judging by the fact that NO ONE made ONE statement of support for him during the pre-season... well... the silence was defeaning there.

can't start someone the locker room doesn't believe in at the beginning of the season.

Adrian Wilson made a public show of support for Leinart.

 

[Pariah]

I really can't believe that intelligent people think that Max Hall is the answer for the Cardinals THIS YEAR.

I think intelligent people are saying there is no answer for the Cardinals this year.

 

[Russ Smith]

I really can't believe that intelligent people think that Max Hall is the answer for the Cardinals THIS YEAR.

I'm with cheese and k9 on this - the only way Hall is considered for a start is if Anderson is physically unable to play. With Hall as starting QB the Cardinals would not win more than 3 games all year, that's with one already in the bag.

I personally don't think there is an answer on the roster this year. It really depends on the team IMHO, if the team thinks they can win with DA then you continue to go with him. If the team will see going with Hall as giving up, you don't do that.

I'm just not convinced the team has a whole lot of belief in DA either, I think the team had no belief in Matt and some belief in DA, which I think DA is quickly killing off with his performances.

I think as long as the team is in the race they have to play the guy the team believes gives them the best chance to win games. If the team falls out of the division race they should then play Hall because there is no upside to playing DA, I just don't believe he's going to get more accurate because of Whiz's coaching.

The division is so weak if we can fix the defense, get Beanie healthy and DA continues to not turn it over, we can win the division.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The division is so weak if we can fix the defense, get Beanie healthy and DA continues to not turn it over, we can win the division.

I agree except that I could comfortably substitute Hall's name for DA. Our defense and our running game and our weak division are the 3 main factors that will determine our season's fate. If this division comes down to who our QB is, chances are we're screwed anyway you cut it.

Steve