My opinion on Amare and Nash

[elindholm]

Tim Duncan says hello.

The Spurs already had a good team before Duncan joined. Their previous year was bad only because Robinson was hurt. You don't "turn around" a team that already has a Hall-of-Fame center.

On this season's Spurs team Duncan, Manu, Parker, Hill, Blair, Anderson, and Splitter are all draft picks.

Splitter, LOL, you crack me up.

I know this is an exception. Just saying there is more than one way to build a championship caliber team.

You obviously didn't understand my post. Not one of those picks was responsible for making the Spurs a good team. They already were one. Those picks have helped the Spurs to stay a good team, but that's completely different. If Tony Parker had joined a lottery team, would he, by himself, make them contenders in two or three years? No.

Having a good FO helps but it's not all about free agents.

Not only that, but water is wet. Thanks for the insight.

 

[elindholm]

Rebuilding processes ARE slow but I don't think they go any faster by delaying the inevitable... As it stands now, we'll struggle through a mediocre year, then we'll survive the wasted year of a lockout, and sometime following those two years we'll begin the long process that could have begun 2 or more years earlier.

Then you're really complaining about retaining Nash, not acquiring Turkoglu. Stay focused on your point. You're acting as though the Suns pursued Turkoglu instead of attractive young talent, which is absurd. The Suns traded one negative for another; no one was going to give up anything of value for Barbosa.

 

[mojorizen7]

If you're not going to rebuild why not keep arguably the best PF in the game paired with arguably the best playmaker in the game.

Rebuilding processes ARE slow but I don't think they go any faster by delaying the inevitable

If the Suns had started a full, from-scratch rebuild this summer, it would still be several years down the road before they were relevant again.

All true.

 

[devilalum]

And it will get even worse once we lose Nash and we'll still be no closer to a turnaround.

Steve

Take Nash from the current roster and the Suns are a top 5 lotto pick.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Take Nash from the current roster and the Suns are a top 5 lotto pick.

Remove Nash and we may well be the worst team in the league. But, again, how bad would it be to be the worst team in the league the same year that basketball is called on account of greed? We're about to experience the Nash-less team anyway, why not do it on our own terms.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm not convinced the Suns need to go into complete rebuild mode to be good again. Actually there is no guarantee that if a team goes into rebuild mode they will get better... maybe eventually but who knows. IMO, the Suns could become a relevant team right now if they could acquire a young PF with some upside. Also looking forward the Suns should be looking for a PG to eventually replace Nash. I'm becoming more and more convinced Dragic is not the answer at PG. For some reason posters on this board want to move Nash. Give me a realistic scenario where the Suns get something good in return besides a late first round draft pick and I will listen.

 

[Chaplin]

Remove Nash and we may well be the worst team in the league. But, again, how bad would it be to be the worst team in the league the same year that basketball is called on account of greed? We're about to experience the Nash-less team anyway, why not do it on our own terms.

Steve

At least do that in a good draft year and a year that's not certainly going to be locked out.

People keep talking about rebuilding, but they forget about the lockout, which will affect the underclassmen that decide to come out next summer.

 

[desertdawg]

so stupid to let amare go.

Yamon.

 

[AzStevenCal]

At least do that in a good draft year and a year that's not certainly going to be locked out.

People keep talking about rebuilding, but they forget about the lockout, which will affect the underclassmen that decide to come out next summer.

I think if there is a full season lockout that this year's draft position will have an impact on two drafts so I don't follow your reasoning. I can't see the league holding a league wide lottery for the second year so my guess is it will be an additional lottery of the same teams, or a repeat of the same positioning from this draft or most likely it will be based solely on final standings. In any case, it makes sense to pay the full price now IMO.

Steve

 

[Lorenzo]

It's a shame that the suns couldn't keep some of their chips from those 60 win teams. In particular joe johnson, amare, and nash would have made a championship caliber *********. Unfortunately it just wasn't in the cards financially i guess. I always thought that too much expectation was placed at the feet of shawn marion because of his contract.

I think you keep nash. He is a once and a lifetime player. Almost every player in the league has some sort of weakness. Nash may not be a defender, but he has always been on a contender because of what he does offensively. He has no weakness at that end and it is rare that you kind find a PG like him. Unless you were to fall into a great young stud at that position I would not trade him.
If I could turn back time I would tell mark cuban not to let nash walk in a time where he was distracted trying to land shaq(or another big man at the 5), but hindsight is 20/20 I guess. Everyone really took him for granted here in dallas. When I look back at those mavs teams outside of dirk(who was developing as nba star) and michael finley(who was good not great)...nash really didn't have any help on that team. and they were winning 50-60 games a year. Then he goes to phoenix and overnight on a much more versatile team with better stars..he is a MVP. People really didn't fully appreciate what he did night in and night out for dallas(not only there but around the NBA). Now Mark Cuban got off the hook somewhat because he made some other great moves and built a much deeper team around dirk than what was there before. That and dirk developed into a much more sound player when he developed a post up game. I really wonder what would have happened if nash stayed in dallas, but I don't know if dirk would have ever been the player he is now had nash stayed on as the leader of that team.

 

[Mainstreet]

It's a shame that the suns couldn't keep some of their chips from those 60 win teams. In particular joe johnson, amare, and nash would have made a championship caliber *********. Unfortunately it just wasn't in the cards financially i guess. I always thought that too much expectation was placed at the feet of shawn marion because of his contract.

I think you keep nash. He is a once and a lifetime player. Almost every player in the league has some sort of weakness. Nash may not be a defender, but he has always been on a contender because of what he does offensively. He has no weakness at that end and it is rare that you kind find a PG like him. Unless you were to fall into a great young stud at that position I would not trade him.
If I could turn back time I would tell mark cuban not to let nash walk in a time where he was distracted trying to land shaq(or another big man at the 5), but hindsight is 20/20 I guess. Everyone really took him for granted here in dallas. When I look back at those mavs teams outside of dirk(who was developing as nba star) and michael finley(who was good not great)...nash really didn't have any help on that team. and they were winning 50-60 games a year. Then he goes to phoenix and overnight on a much more versatile team with better stars..he is a MVP. People really didn't fully appreciate what he did night in and night out for dallas(not only there but around the NBA). Now Mark Cuban got off the hook somewhat because he made some other great moves and built a much deeper team around dirk than what was there before. That and dirk developed into a much more sound player when he developed a post up game. I really wonder what would have happened if nash stayed in dallas, but I don't know if dirk would have ever been the player he is now had nash stayed on as the leader of that team.

I have no doubt in my mind the Mavs would have beat the Heat in the Finals if they had not mentally self destructed. Nash would not have let this happen. That was a good Mavs team that should have not lost to the Heat.

 

[Lorenzo]

I have no doubt in my mind the Mavs would have beat the Heat in the Finals if they had not mentally self destructed. Nash would not have let this happen. That was a good Mavs team that should have not lost to the Heat.

yeah it was a young team that wasn't ready for the big dance. they had it at their fingertips and failed to finish the deal. they lost to a team that was much older and more experienced as a whole. the heat did a great job of making it difficult for dirk, because he was on some kind of terror before that series(scoring and rebounding the bball). dirk was getting to the line about 10-15 shots per game before that series. Then suddenly it was wade getting 20 per game.

but the mavs had better talent when you consider that wade did most of their lifting and shaq was largely ineffective, from a production standpoint, the whole series. they let it get away and if dirk never wins a title he will have to look back at that one because they appeared to have the heat by the neck.

It would be nice to see a finals rematch , but I think the celtics will probably win the east. I don't know about dallas. I think this is the deepest team dirk has ever been on, but the spurs and lakers will be tough. I think dallas is playing great defense and they did end the spurs streak earlier in the year in SA .

 

[Chaplin]

Yes, Dallas should have won that year, but then again, if Joe Johnson hadn't broken his face, we'd be talking about the championship we would have won that year.

 

[Mainstreet]

It seems for the present, the Suns and Mavericks are cursed.

 

[JCSunsfan]

With all due respect, Nash/Stoudemire do not come close to Stockton/Malone.

If you mean because of the inability of Amare to be healthy, and their lack of longevity together, I will give it to you. But if I got one duo or the other on a typical healthy night, I am taking Nash and Stoudemire.

 

[Mainstreet]

Malone is more than Stoudemire. He could shoot the outside shot and was hard as nails inside. I'd take Nash over Stockton because Nash has had to create the Suns offense. However, I think one can argue the Nash/Stockton comparison.

 

[cly2tw]

Malone is more than Stoudemire. He could shoot the outside shot and was hard as nails inside. I'd take Nash over Stockton because Nash has had to create the Suns offense. However, I think one can argue the Nash/Stockton comparison.

One major difference between Malone's and Amare's situation is the former had been the featured franchise player on Jazz team from day one while Amare has never been featured as the franchise player on the Suns. DA's Suns team has been evolved exclusively around Nash's talent. And Amare has not been the only MVP type of talent that was overshadowed by Nash on the team, for good or bad.

For now, I'm happy that Amare has been committing all the TOs in NY, which indicates that he's been put into the decision-making roles a lot, more than ever in his career. You only mature and learn from mistakes and chances of committing those mistakes in the first place.

As to Mavs would have won the title had Nash not left, it's myopic misperception. Without separation from Nash, Dirk would not have matured the way he did. Had Nash stayed, they might not have won the West at all. But they might have won it all, had Nash returned after one or two years. As I stated early in this thread, Nash as the best player on a team can never win a championship. It's still time left for Dirk and Amare to prove that they could.

 

[Covert Rain]

but the mavs had better talent when you consider that wade did most of their lifting and shaq was largely ineffective, from a production standpoint, the whole series. they let it get away and if dirk never wins a title he will have to look back at that one because they appeared to have the heat by the neck.

It would be nice to see a finals rematch , but I think the celtics will probably win the east. I don't know about dallas. I think this is the deepest team dirk has ever been on, but the spurs and lakers will be tough. I think dallas is playing great defense and they did end the spurs streak earlier in the year in SA .

Shaq was ineffective? He had games of 17 pts (8 for 11)/5 assists, 16 pts(6 for 9)/11 RB/5 assists, 17 points(6 for 8)/13 rebounds/3 assists, 18 pts (8 for 12)/12 rebounds. He and the entire Heat had a bad Game 2 and between Wade, Haslem and Walker in the last game they didn't need him to do much in the last game.

Shaq filled up the paint overall and the Heat owned the paint during that series. Shaq wasn't his old drop 30 points on you but he was highly efficient in that series and the heat pushed the Mavs around in the paint.

Without Shaq in the middle the Heat don't win that title.

 

[SirStefan32]

If you mean because of the inability of Amare to be healthy, and their lack of longevity together, I will give it to you. But if I got one duo or the other on a typical healthy night, I am taking Nash and Stoudemire.

On any given night, Nash and Stoudemire are poor defenders. Stockton and Malone were both very good defenders. I guarantee you that Stockton/J-Rich/Hill/Malone/Lopez lineup would not be giving up 95-100 points to anybody.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I have no doubt in my mind the Mavs would have beat the Heat in the Finals if they had not mentally self destructed. Nash would not have let this happen. That was a good Mavs team that should have not lost to the Heat.

they would have never gotten to the Heat because the Spurs would have beat Nash down like they always did in their hey-day.

 

[Lorenzo]

Shaq was ineffective? He had games of 17 pts (8 for 11)/5 assists, 16 pts(6 for 9)/11 RB/5 assists, 17 points(6 for 8)/13 rebounds/3 assists, 18 pts (8 for 12)/12 rebounds. He and the entire Heat had a bad Game 2 and between Wade, Haslem and Walker in the last game they didn't need him to do much in the last game.

Shaq filled up the paint overall and the Heat owned the paint during that series. Shaq wasn't his old drop 30 points on you but he was highly efficient in that series and the heat pushed the Mavs around in the paint.

Without Shaq in the middle the Heat don't win that title.

i remember shaq's backup having a larger impact on that series, but I guess I could be wrong. I thought that shaq's terrible free throw percentage was killing them and outweighing any thing that he did on the court. dallas could just hack him anytime that they wanted and you knew that he wasn't going to make his free throws. he was terrible.

dwade is the only reason they won that series. he lived at the FT line in the 4th quarter in 3 wins that were really close and went down to the wire. shaq was contained by erika to be honest.

 

[Lorenzo]

they would have never gotten to the Heat because the Spurs would have beat Nash down like they always did in their hey-day.

maybe so....and I agree with the notion that dirk stepped his game up when nash left. he had to, but I think he would have regardless of whether nash left or stayed...there just might have been less pressure on him as to what he has faced being the lone superstar on his roster. one thing that gets overlooked is that the mavs were very deep that year. dirk stepped his game up, but they had a lot of weapons that the spurs just couldn't handle. when avery brought out his tony parker killer(devin harris) the spurs just didn't know what to do. that series probably should have been over in 5 games...but I relish the game 7 victory in SA.

 

[Covert Rain]

i remember shaq's backup having a larger impact on that series, but I guess I could be wrong. I thought that shaq's terrible free throw percentage was killing them and outweighing any thing that he did on the court. dallas could just hack him anytime that they wanted and you knew that he wasn't going to make his free throws. he was terrible.

dwade is the only reason they won that series. he lived at the FT line in the 4th quarter in 3 wins that were really close and went down to the wire. shaq was contained by erika to be honest.

Shaq has always been terrible at the FT but it never stopped him in the finals from getting rings. It's always been the opposite......his overall play has always outweighed anything he did at the FT line.

Wade was a huge reason but again....no Shaq .....no ring. The Heat dominated the paint. There is no way they do that without the big guy. Dallas couldn't do anything in the paint when Shaq was in there.

 

[sunsfan88]

i remember shaq's backup having a larger impact on that series, but I guess I could be wrong. I thought that shaq's terrible free throw percentage was killing them and outweighing any thing that he did on the court. dallas could just hack him anytime that they wanted and you knew that he wasn't going to make his free throws. he was terrible.

dwade is the only reason they won that series. he lived at the FT line in the 4th quarter in 3 wins that were really close and went down to the wire. shaq was contained by erika to be honest.

The hack-a-shaq method wasn't invented til he came to the Suns I think.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The hack-a-shaq method wasn't invented til he came to the Suns I think.

Nah, it was used routinely when he was in LA winning titles.

Steve