Nash Greatest Shooter of All Time

[AzStevenCal]

If I told you "you're going to have 1 shot to win a game" and I didn't tell you where it was from on the court, what the situation was, etc. you'd be a moron not to pick Nash to take the shot.

Sign me up as a moron because I'd give it to Bird, Kobe or Michael long before I'd give it to Nash. Even if you set up a scenario that guaranteed the player would get a decent look I'd still take those three over Nash. Not that it proves anything but I still have bad dreams about that home game against the Celts where Bird nailed an impossible shot to cap a furious comeback. Nash is an incredible shooter but he's not the only one.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think there are good reasons why Nash's numbers are so good.

1. Nash's shot selection is better than anyone in the history of the game. He is not nearly as good as Jordan/Bird/Kobe et al at creating his own shot or shooting against a defender.

2. Nash's passing makes his shooting exponentially better. He is so feared as a passer he gets great shots, and vice versa.

So, at the end of the game, you want the ball in Nash's hands, but you want to give him the option of passing or shooting. He will make the right choice.

The other guys are going to do it all themselves.

 

[Chaplin]

This isn't about clutch shooting it's about overall shooting. Why people keep using clutch shooting as a reason is beyond me.

 

[devilalum]

This isn't about clutch shooting it's about overall shooting. Why people keep using clutch shooting as a reason is beyond me.

Exactly.

There are scorers, clutch scorers and shooters. 3 different categories.

Jordan was the greatest player ever but definitely not the greatest shooter.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This isn't about clutch shooting it's about overall shooting. Why people keep using clutch shooting as a reason is beyond me.

I guess if you take it all the way out of the game than you can dismiss clutch shooting as an aspect of overall greatest shooter. Short of that, clutch shooting is very much a part of what makes a great shooter, IMO. It's not the whole story by any means but the game of basketball allows for so many clutch situations that's it's difficult to separate clutch shooting from shooting in general.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

The problem with assessing "clutch" shooting is that it relies too heavily on anecdote, and fans' memories can be awfully selective. I remember reading a year or two ago that, if you establish fixed criteria for "clutch" situations, Bryant is actually worse than a lot of other big-time players. But that doesn't affect his mystique. Once a highlight of a particular "clutch" shot gets played a thousand times, it starts to overwhelm all of the times that a player missed in a similar situation.

I think the point of the article is, if you want your best chance of winning, trust the numbers, not your emotionally distorted memories.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The problem with assessing "clutch" shooting is that it relies too heavily on anecdote, and fans' memories can be awfully selective. I remember reading a year or two ago that, if you establish fixed criteria for "clutch" situations, Bryant is actually worse than a lot of other big-time players. But that doesn't affect his mystique. Once a highlight of a particular "clutch" shot gets played a thousand times, it starts to overwhelm all of the times that a player missed in a similar situation.

I think the point of the article is, if you want your best chance of winning, trust the numbers, not your emotionally distorted memories.

So if you consider Kobe to be a great clutch shooter it can only be the consequence of an emotionally distorted memory?

Stuck in So Cal the last 25 years I've seen my share of Lakers games and there aren't too many players I detest more than Kobe but I'll trust my eyes and my memory - he is an incredible clutch shooter. I'm sure there are ways to define clutch to make him seem less effective but with the game on the line he's as good as there's ever been IMO.

Steve

 

[mojorizen7]

We could discuss anti-clutch. We've got one starting for us right now...............

You must be registered for see images

On topic, i agree that as soon as you try to bring in "the best shooter when......" scenarios it just becomes an open ended debate.
I'll take Steve Nash in 99.99% of any scenaro involving shooting the basketball.

 

[elindholm]

So if you consider Kobe to be a great clutch shooter it can only be the consequence of an emotionally distorted memory?

Heck no, you can consider him anything you like. But to know whether he is a great clutch shooter, you'd have to look at the most recent numbers, which I haven't done. He himself pointed out, after his game winner a night or two ago, that he recently had the same opportunity against Orlando (?) and missed. So it's not like he makes all of them -- he just gets a ton of chances, and we remember the successes more than the failures.

 

[Chaplin]

Personally, I think Kobe is the best clutch performer in the league today. Hands down. He's not the best clutch shooter, he's the best clutch performer.

However, that doesn't make him the best shooter in league history. Sounds like people are taking the terms "best shooter" and twisting it to suit their own arguments.

 

[elindholm]

As it turns out, ESPN has an article (blog post, whatever) on this very topic this morning:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14218/new-numbers-on-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Short version: Over the past decade, Bryant has gotten far more "clutch" opportunities than anyone in the league. His conversion rate, historically, has been mediocre, but this year he's been great.

Unfortunately the article leaves some players completely out of the discussion, including Nash and LeBron James. The implication is that their numbers are bad.

 

[devilalum]

As it turns out, ESPN has an article (blog post, whatever) on this very topic this morning:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14218/new-numbers-on-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Short version: Over the past decade, Bryant has gotten far more "clutch" opportunities than anyone in the league. His conversion rate, historically, has been mediocre, but this year he's been great.

Unfortunately the article leaves some players completely out of the discussion, including Nash and LeBron James. The implication is that their numbers are bad.

I was thinking about this, how many times has Nash had a chance at a game winning shot? For whatever reason I don't remember this happening very often.

 

[elindholm]

I was thinking about this, how many times has Nash had a chance at a game winning shot? For whatever reason I don't remember this happening very often.

My impression is that he hits a fairly large number of game-tying threes, but maybe they don't come in the last ten seconds, or maybe I'm conveniently forgetting how often he misses.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I was thinking about this, how many times has Nash had a chance at a game winning shot? For whatever reason I don't remember this happening very often.

I know what you mean. Even if you add in the situations where he's in position to take that shot or set up a teammate it still isn't that many. It makes you wonder how Kobe keeps getting into that situation. There have always been suggestions that Kobe underacheives in order to create game-winning magic and I'd be inclined to believe it. Of course, if it's ego related I'd be inclined to believe anything negative about Kobe.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Unfortunately the article leaves some players completely out of the discussion, including Nash and LeBron James. The implication is that their numbers are bad.

Which turns out to be completely false. Kobe is clutch off reputation alone. (Although this year, maybe he's hitting at a better clip)

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/11/05/clutch.numbersgame/index.html

 

[Gaddabout]

My impression is that he hits a fairly large number of game-tying threes, but maybe they don't come in the last ten seconds, or maybe I'm conveniently forgetting how often he misses.

I don't think Nash is always considered the go-to guy because he doesn't always have his legs or he's dealing with back issues by the 4th quarter. Better to let him set up the game-winner than to ask him to force a shot.

But Nash is clutch. I don't want anyone to think I'm saying otherwise. He's got the right mentality for that job. Just, physically, I think he takes such a beating that it wears on his ability to impact the final minute or two of a game night-in and night-out.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

As it turns out, ESPN has an article (blog post, whatever) on this very topic this morning:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14218/new-numbers-on-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

Short version: Over the past decade, Bryant has gotten far more "clutch" opportunities than anyone in the league. His conversion rate, historically, has been mediocre, but this year he's been great.

Unfortunately the article leaves some players completely out of the discussion, including Nash and LeBron James. The implication is that their numbers are bad.

Over the last decade, by field goal percentage the best shooters in this setting have been Carmelo Anthony (13-28, .464), Pau Gasol (9-22, .409), Tony Parker (11-29, .379), Chris Paul (9-24, .375) and Shawn Marion (10-28, .357)

Interesting name

 

[elindholm]

I was surprised to see Marion there too. I have to believe it's from putbacks and broken plays. Note that most of those numbers must come from his tenure with the Suns.

 

[devilalum]

I was surprised to see Marion there too. I have to believe it's from putbacks and broken plays. Note that most of those numbers must come from his tenure with the Suns.

I remember him getting left open on the baseline when nobody thought the Suns would possibly go to him.

If Marion hadn't vetoed the trade to Boston he would have gotten the big payday he wanted and the Suns would have won a title with KG!!!!

Alright, I'm back.

 

[Sunburn]

Other teams know Bryant is going to take the last shot so they make it especially difficult for him, accounting for his lower field goal percentage, but give the man just the least bit of daylight and he's going to make you pay.

. . .and Steve Nash is clutch. I don't care what anybody says. It seems like every close game we play in he has a big shot or several.

 

[Sunburn]

If Marion hadn't vetoed the trade to Boston he would have gotten the big payday he wanted and the Suns would have won a title with KG!!!!

It still hurts.