Nash's D

[Sundance]

Well, there is one thing defensively that Nash does better than anyone else:

"Nash thinks through the game better than any player since Magic Johnson. He has even improved as a defender and leads the league in charges taken, an unofficial category, but an important one."

-- Mike Monroe

Quote is from a Nash-for-MVP article from the the San Antonio Express

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/...MYSA041507.08C.COL.BKNmonroe.mvp.2c940af.html

 

[azirish]

Well, there is one thing defensively that Nash does better than anyone else:

Quote is from a Nash-for-MVP article from the the San Antonio Express

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/...MYSA041507.08C.COL.BKNmonroe.mvp.2c940af.html

Good article, although I think he misses one of the reasons Nash is such a big deal. When things are going badly, Nash routinely makes the huge play. (If the refs gave him more respect and did not allow so many fouls go uncalled, he'd average 25 ppg without more field goal attempts because he gets fouled all the time - which is about the only way teams can stop him.)

 

[SO91]

For the fans that are a bit more knowledgable then I...what is and isn't hand-checking in the NBA? And is it being called like it should? I constantly see guys with their hand on Nash's hip out in the perimeter and it's my understanding that it should be called a foul.

PS - Don't think it deserves its own thread, so I put it here after readind azirish's comment on uncalled fouls

 

[jbeecham]

You're not supposed to be able put your hands (either hand or both) on an offensive player when they are facing you and driving towards the basket. There are a lot of no-calls when Nash is driving to the basket (slap downs, grabbing dribbling arm/jersey, bumps, hands in the chest, etc). I don't mind the no-calls so much when he's out by the 3pt line because Nash also gets away with a lot of grabbing and reaching fouls on defense out there, but he should get more calls when he's driving to the basket.

 

[HooverDam]

While its great that Nash takes a lot of charges, to me his main problem on defense is his happy feet. He floats over to help on defense, but often doesn't give hard doubles, so he ends up splitting the difference and doesn't really defend anyone.

 

[arwillan]

IMO nash's biggest problem on D is the fact that he isnt that big compared to some of today's guards, and they out muscle him sometimes. sam cassel is a perfect example, he always posts nash up, same with guards like baron davis. now that nash takes a lot of charges, its safe to say they may be a bit more hesitant when driving of posing on nash.

 

[azirish]

IMO nash's biggest problem on D is the fact that he isnt that big compared to some of today's guards, and they out muscle him sometimes. sam cassel is a perfect example, he always posts nash up, same with guards like baron davis. now that nash takes a lot of charges, its safe to say they may be a bit more hesitant when driving of posing on nash.

This is a recurring theme in the NBA. Look at the PG's in college and they are generally tiny. A few can make up for it with super quickness, but most will struggle due to the huge size difference.

That's why combo guards get so much love, even though most fail. Combo guards have the size (and in some cases the quickness) to play solid defense while posting up smaller PG's. However, not many can run the offense.

The increased interest in small but quick PG's is in part a function of the running style the Suns have popularized. Slow down teams need really big PG's, but running teams don't as much. Look at TJ Ford who is leading the up and coming Raptor team. He's tiny, but is averaging 8 assists a game in 30 minutes. Of course if the team does not run, like the Celtics, a tiny PG is a liability. Telfair is having a very poor year.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

Oh thank goodness. I was really starting to worry about what this thread was about.

 

[TheHopToad]

One thing to consider when talking about Nash's defense, or lack thereof, is that he doesn't commit many fouls. In fact, he doesn't have a foul against him in the last three games. Just makes you wonder how hard he is really trying...

That being said, IMO it's not a significant issue enough to warrant him to change they way he plays...

 

[DeAnna]

All of the above. Which is why some people had a problem with him being MVP when he doesn' play a lick of defense (except for the occasional charge). He more than makes up for up on offense, tho.

 

[sunsfn]

All of the above. Which is why some people had a problem with him being MVP when he doesn' play a lick of defense (except for the occasional charge). He more than makes up for up on offense, tho.

DeAnna,
Why do you say things like he doesn' play a lick of defense?
Nash works hard at staying in front of the opposing player. He is doing that a lot more than he used to and he is playing better defense then last year. The charges are important also because he is taking those charges a lot of the times on players other than point guards.

I am not saying Nash will ever be on the all defensive team, but to say he does not play defense is wrong!

 

[azirish]

Accusing Nash of not playing a lick of defense is the same as saying he doesn't try. That is simply not true. He does work hard and doesn't take plays off, but he's just not big enough, strong enough, or quick enough to be a top defender.

Nash is also pretty good a playing the passing lanes and causing disruption in that way. He does the best he can, it is just frustrating when he has such a big physical disadvantage.

 

[Scot1]

He floats over to help on defense, but often doesn't give hard doubles, so he ends up splitting the difference and doesn't really defend anyone.

I agree that this sometimes happens, but I often see it as him threatening to double, to stop an opponent from starting to drive or wheel. It seems to work, sometimes, but can also leave his man too open. I rate him as a good or at least OK defender, relative to his size. He pesters people a lot, and his charges and steals add up. The Suns defense has shut down some good teams during runs, while he's out there--they could not do that playing 4 on 5.

 

[Errntknght]

I have to agree more with Scot1 than Hoover - Nash isn't a good guy to send on hard double teams of opponents bigs because they can pass over him too easily. It's better that he makes just enough of move to cause the guy to pick up his dribble or turn away from him. LB is a better choice for the hard doubles because of his long arms and great hops - he gets a hand on lots balls when even bigs try to pass over him.

DeAnna's statement that Nash doesn't play a lick of defenese is utter nonsense - he uses what physical attributes he has about as well as possible. He doesn't miss assignments and he doesn't commit dumb fouls - rarely gives up an 'and 1'. He not only takes charges, he gets in the path of cutters and takes far more than his share of nasty hip bumps when fighting over picks. For his size and position he's even a pretty fair rebounder.

 

[DeAnna]

[FONT='Antique Olv (W1)']Ok, so saying he doesn’t play a ‘lick’ may be a little harsh… [/FONT]
[FONT='Antique Olv (W1)'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Antique Olv (W1)']I’ve watched every single Suns game the past 3 years (I love my TiVo!). So that’s a total of 246 games; is it coincidence that whomever Nash is guarding usually has a career night? Saying that the tries very hard still doesn’t make him a good defender. Even McCullum alluded to it in his book that he’s a wanderer (by nature) and usually leaves his guy alone to go somewhere else.[/FONT]

 

[sunsfn]

[FONT=Antique Olv (W1)]Ok, so saying he doesn’t play a ‘lick’ may be a little harsh… [/FONT]

[FONT=Antique Olv (W1)]I’ve watched every single Suns game the past 3 years (I love my TiVo!). So that’s a total of 246 games; is it coincidence that whomever Nash is guarding usually has a career night? Saying that the tries very hard still doesn’t make him a good defender. Even McCullum alluded to it in his book that he’s a wanderer (by nature) and usually leaves his guy alone to go somewhere else.[/FONT]

If you have watched that many games (I have watched all of them except about 6 for those 3 years) you should have noticed that this year he has made an effort to be a better defender and he is. That book was written last year and it is accurate, but he has improved noticibly this year.

Although, even last year he was better than "he doesn’t play a ‘lick’"

 

[Errntknght]

I decided to give the '82games' website a check to see if Nash's defensive shortcomings showed up in their oncourt/offcourt breakdown stats.

The opponents effective FG pct went up 0.3% when he went off the floor. They had 1 more TO per 48, and 4 less FTs per 48 for a net effect of 0.5 more points per 100 possessions for opponents. Not a whole lot of support for your case there.

Contrast that with the 12.3 points per 100 possessions our offense loses when he's not on the floor. 24 times as large an effect!

I watch all the games, too, but I don't pay much attention to what the media says - except for Eddie Johnson. (I find his observations on the Suns generally quite astute.) Its 'common knowledge' that Nash is a terrible defender - it just doesn't happen to be true.

By the way, I did not make the case that Nash works hard on defense - he does but I've seen players work a lot harder. I've seen some, like Casey Jacobson, that work a lot harder but accomplish less. The thing is that Nash has to allocate his energy between offense and defense - and I'd have to say he is 'practically perfect' in his allocation.