NBA Finals Cleveland vs Golden State

[sunsfan88]

If Blatt is as good of a head coach as you think he is, then why didn't he get a second HC job in the states, when Jeff Hornacek was able to? Blatt would be as overmatched as Lue is in this series.

And yes, I'm going to point fingers at the other players and coaches because if you take your eyes off the #23 on Cleveland, you'll see a team around the player, including its coach, struggling to find answers. It's quite evident if you're looking at it through an objective lens. Anyone who faults one individual for a team's failure has an agenda, particularly faulting the one who's putting up close to a triple-double in each game. Yes, LeBron could do more in this series, but do you honestly think that if LeBron turns it up one notch that this series is any different? No, because Cleveland overall is at a significant disadvantage based on comparable talent and coaching. This was pretty obvious going into the finals, but people chose to ignore that and hyper-focus on LeBron James. 16 wins in the regular season separates these two teams. That's very significant.

Again, let's not forget that the Golden State Warriors went 73-9 during the regular season. The more people choose to focus on LeBron during the Finals, the more they discount the undeniable greatness of the team that's pummeling Cleveland.

I never said that LeBron is the sole reason for his team's struggles.

What I said is that he picked this team. He's the GM of the Cleveland Cavaliers. He chooses who gets fired and who gets hired and who gets resigned and who doesn't.

If players aren't performing then LeBron shouldn't have resigned them.

If you don't want to blame LeBron for his play, then blame his basketball IQ or his GM skills which isn't too far ahead of the GM skills of one Lance Blanks in my very honest opinion.

LeBron will now have 2-5 finals record and in all 5 of his losses except maybe Dallas one, he's avoided the criticism because he's never had "enough help".

LeBron has basically hand pick his roster for all those finals losses except his first one where they got swept by the Spurs.

So if LeBron chooses his roster and then that roster fails big time in the NBA finals, whose fault is it?

 

[TJ]

I never said that LeBron is the sole reason for his team's struggles.



What I said is that he picked this team. He's the GM of the Cleveland Cavaliers. He chooses who gets fired and who gets hired and who gets resigned and who doesn't.



If players aren't performing then LeBron shouldn't have resigned them.



If you don't want to blame LeBron for his play, then blame his basketball IQ or his GM skills which isn't too far ahead of the GM skills of one Lance Blanks in my very honest opinion.



LeBron will now have 2-5 finals record and in all 5 of his losses except maybe Dallas one, he's avoided the criticism because he's never had "enough help".



LeBron has basically hand pick his roster for all those finals losses except his first one where they got swept by the Spurs.



So if LeBron chooses his roster and then that roster fails big time in the NBA finals, whose fault is it?

LeBron isn't choosing the roster, writing checks, or doing talent evaluations. You're dealing in hypothetical constructs. I'm sure LeBron gave his opinion on certain personnel moves, but he's not the final decision maker as you imply that he is.

That, along with the "LeBron is 2-5 in the Finals" rhetoric are two of the most overused, yet misunderstood proclamations we have in sports media.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yeah unfair IMO to totally blame LeBron he won 2 games by himself last year this year he's been really good.

I think the roster makeup is a problem and I said that as soon as they acquired Love. Good player loved him at UCLA but a bad fit in Cleveland because he's not a guy who should just be camping in the corner waiting for a pass for a 3, he's not a good enough 3 point shooter to fill that role, he can make 3's but he's not an elite shooter, and by having him that far out, it negates his offensive rebounding. He averaged over 4 ORPG the last few years in Minnesota but is under 2 per game in Cleveland because they play him nowhere near the rim.

So they're not setup in a way that fits his strengths so his weaknesses get magnified, especially the bad defense. As people keep saying at this stage of his career, LeBron is a 4, and he and Love can't play the same position.

 

[Russ Smith]

Green hits Lebron in the junk AGAIN. This guy has absolutely no shame.

is this on the play where they got a double foul after LeBron threw him down and stepped over him? I haven't seen it on replay so I am guessing it's anotehr play that I didn't see? Not saying it didn't happen just that I didn't see it but someone on a UCLA board said the same thing so I'm curious.

 

[Russ Smith]

Tryonn Lue complaining to the media that LeBron drives over and over and never gets foul calls. That's because everyone on the planet knows he's going to drive now so the Warriors have 3 guys sitting there waiting on him. Lowering your shoulder using your left hand to clear space and then expecting a foul call because their chest contacted your left hand is not going to work anymore the refs have figured that out.

I do think Lue is overmatched but at this point other than say Phil Jackson or Pop who could coach them? It's completely LeBron's team the coach has to be someone LeBron respects. Maybe tehy should hire Calipari, LeBron seems to love him.

 

[Mainstreet]

After watching the game last night I do not understand what constitutes a foul in the eyes of the official. It was crazy. There was a stretch where the referees simply did not call fouls. It amazes me there have not been any major incidents.

The Cavaliers could have used this to their advantage more by fouling Curry... hard. There was a situation (I believe right before the end of the first half) where Lebron did just that, bumping Curry hard near the sideline several times. It was interesting that Curry protested the play to Lebron directly.

 

[Russ Smith]

is this on the play where they got a double foul after LeBron threw him down and stepped over him? I haven't seen it on replay so I am guessing it's anotehr play that I didn't see? Not saying it didn't happen just that I didn't see it but someone on a UCLA board said the same thing so I'm curious.

OK I found it on the replay from the backside. Punch is inaccurate(the story I found said it was a punch) but yeah as LeBron walked over him and he started to get up he threw out his right hand and made contact wtih the goods so it did happen.

The story I read said he should be suspended. I can't really argue at thsi point he's so close on T's and Flagrants it probably should happen.

LeBron threw him down and walked over him I can understand him being upset but he can't do that, just stand up as LeBron is walking over you so that you throw him off balance, that alone would make the statement don't walk over me./

won't be surprised at all if he's suspended though.

I would add again, LeBron is about the only guy who could have reacted that way and not got a T, he was clearly trying to instigate something there both verbally and repeatedly moving forward towards Green with the refs there. If Draymond had done that he'd have gotten a T immediately.

 

[TJ]

Tryonn Lue complaining to the media that LeBron drives over and over and never gets foul calls. That's because everyone on the planet knows he's going to drive now so the Warriors have 3 guys sitting there waiting on him. Lowering your shoulder using your left hand to clear space and then expecting a foul call because their chest contacted your left hand is not going to work anymore the refs have figured that out.

I do think Lue is overmatched but at this point other than say Phil Jackson or Pop who could coach them? It's completely LeBron's team the coach has to be someone LeBron respects. Maybe tehy should hire Calipari, LeBron seems to love him.

This has been the dynamic with many legendary players. Jordan and Kobe were never apart of a championship team that wasn't coached by Phil Jackson. That's 11 championships. Not coincidental.

With elite talent comes elite ego. When LeBron was in Miami, I was convinced that Pat Riley was going to push Erik Spoelstra to the side to coach LeBron, as I thought that'd be the only way for the team to win a championship (I do firmly believe that had Miami had an elite coach like Riley those four LeBron years, they win four championships).

I don't buy that Coach Cal can succeed in the NBA. I think his personality better fits with teenagers. "Wait, you mean it's legal to pay these guys here?"

 

[Russ Smith]

After watching the game last night I do not understand what constitutes a foul in the eyes of the official. It was crazy. There was a stretch where the referees simply did not call fouls. It amazes me there have not been any major incidents.

The Cavaliers could have used this to their advantage more by fouling Curry... hard. There was a situation (I believe right before the end of the first half) where Lebron did just that, bumping Curry hard near the sideline several times. It was interesting that Curry protested the play to Lebron directly.

Curry is a skinny guy and he does whine to the refs but he is not shy telling other players to cool it. he's confronted leBron several times. People forget in January LeBron got a T for shoving Curry down with 2 hands and that stemmed from an earlier play where Curry got in his face because LeBron cheapshotted him. And last year LeBron got a couple of fouls for shoving Curry down.

Great player but it's very clear LeBron does not like the notion that Curry is getting all these accolades. I don't know if its' jealousy or what but he clearly does not like Steph Curry and he's been trying to bully him the last 2 seasons.

 

[Russ Smith]

This has been the dynamic with many legendary players. Jordan and Kobe were never apart of a championship team that wasn't coached by Phil Jackson. That's 11 championships. Not coincidental.

With elite talent comes elite ego. When LeBron was in Miami, I was convinced that Pat Riley was going to push Erik Spoelstra to the side to coach LeBron, as I thought that'd be the only way for the team to win a championship (I do firmly believe that had Miami had an elite coach like Riley those four LeBron years, they win four championships).

I don't buy that Coach Cal can succeed in the NBA. I think his personality better fits with teenagers. "Wait, you mean it's legal to pay these guys here?"

Oh I don't think Calipari is a great coach but I think LeBron needs someone he respects and Lue can't coach so at least Calipari is a seasoned coach and LeBron respects him.

he didn't respect prior coaches, even in Miami IMO they just had the big 3 and were too good so it worked without Spoelstra really having control over LeBron

 

[elindholm]

Tryonn Lue complaining to the media that LeBron drives over and over and never gets foul calls. That's because everyone on the planet knows he's going to drive now so the Warriors have 3 guys sitting there waiting on him.

James got fouled an awful lot last night, but so did everyone on the floor. It was ridiculous. What changed for the Warriors in the second half was that they decided to see how much fouling they could get away with, and the answer turned out to be, a hell of a lot.

 

[Mainstreet]

Curry is a skinny guy and he does whine to the refs but he is not shy telling other players to cool it. he's confronted leBron several times. People forget in January LeBron got a T for shoving Curry down with 2 hands and that stemmed from an earlier play where Curry got in his face because LeBron cheapshotted him. And last year LeBron got a couple of fouls for shoving Curry down.

Great player but it's very clear LeBron does not like the notion that Curry is getting all these accolades. I don't know if its' jealousy or what but he clearly does not like Steph Curry and he's been trying to bully him the last 2 seasons.

I was only using Lebron as an example. I was thinking more about the Cavaliers fouling Curry hard as a team strategy, to take advantage of the referees swallowing their whistle. I don't think it would work because Curry will get preferential treatment. However, it didn't stop teams relentlessly fouling Nash hard to wear him down. The Cavaliers are outmatched so about the only thing they can try do is throw the Warriors out of rhythm.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I was only using Lebron as an example. I was thinking more about the Cavaliers fouling Curry hard as a team strategy, to take advantage of the referees swallowing their whistle. I don't think it would work because Curry will get preferential treatment. However, it didn't stop teams relentlessly fouling Nash hard to wear him down. The Cavaliers are outmatched so about the only thing they can try do is throw the Warriors out of rhythm.

You mean like they did in game 3? I think they've already been banging him hard especially when he's off the ball. The Cavs came out of the gate very physical in game 3 and manhandled Curry and this Warriors team, the Warriors responded by raising their level of physicality in game 4. We were just a Bill Laimbeer shy of Chuck Daly ball. I really hope this doesn't turn the timetable back on playoff refereeing, it's been nice the past few years watching them almost call it like the regular season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm watching the 40th anniversary of the Celtics/Suns finals on NBA TV right now and what a difference compared to last night's game. No grabbing or clutching, tripping or kicking. No flailing at the arms of the ballhandler. No pushing off on a drive to the basket, nobody uses their stomach, chest or elbow to gain separation. They play defense by getting their body in front of the player and holding their position. Love it.

 

[Mainstreet]

You mean like they did in game 3? I think they've already been banging him hard especially when he's off the ball. The Cavs came out of the gate very physical in game 3 and manhandled Curry and this Warriors team, the Warriors responded by raising their level of physicality in game 4. We were just a Bill Laimbeer shy of Chuck Daly ball. I really hope this doesn't turn the timetable back on playoff refereeing, it's been nice the past few years watching them almost call it like the regular season.

I think it has already turned the timetable back on refereeing. I guess this is what the commissioner wants. Watching all the fouls go uncalled last night (obvious fouls) were repugnant to me. A reoccurring thought to me during these playoffs, they are only a fight away from resembling a hockey game.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think it has already turned the timetable back on refereeing. I guess this is what the commissioner wants. Watching all the fouls go uncalled last night (obvious fouls) were repugnant to me. A reoccurring thought to me during these playoffs, they are only a fight away from resembling a hockey game.

Sad to say but it might be the best thing that could happen for this league. But I don't buy that's what the commissioner wants, this is more about specific refs that still haven't bought into calling the game by the rules. I think Silver has probably had input about trying to keep suspensions to a minimum, especially for key players but I doubt he likes all the contact and chippiness we've seen.

 

[Ronin]

Sam Amick ‏@sam_amick 20m20 minutes ago
Per NBA, these Finals are 2nd-most watched ever on ABC through 4 games. Series averaging 17,367,000 viewers. Last night peaked at 20,407,000

 

[nashman]

Agree azstevencal they have been knocking Curry around the past few games. I point out late when they were trying to inbound and James and curry got into it a bit because James literally threw him down in front of a ref with no call it was ridiculous. Also Lue complaining about officiating lol they were committing more fouls than anyone and only reason they won game 3 was they were allowed to play like thugs! IMO James was instigating the whole deal with Green and was very demonstrative in words and actions with no reprocussion so Green damn well shouldn't get anything either! If Green is suspended its a total joke James will have accomplished exactly what he wanted, it's total garbage IMO Green showed great restraint to continually walk away after Lebron kept at him. Cleveland has gotten away with quite a few cheap shots they definitely should not be complaining about officiating hurting them.

 

[Mainstreet]

Sad to say but it might be the best thing that could happen for this league. But I don't buy that's what the commissioner wants, this is more about specific refs that still haven't bought into calling the game by the rules. I think Silver has probably had input about trying to keep suspensions to a minimum, especially for key players but I doubt he likes all the contact and chippiness we've seen.

I've thought the same thing. The loss of money to the players and suspension may be the only reasons a fight hasn't occurred already. If fight should occur, the league shouldn't act like it is a surprise.

I can't give the commissioner a pass simply because, he is the commissioner. He has the power to do something about it.

 

[Russ Smith]

James got fouled an awful lot last night, but so did everyone on the floor. It was ridiculous. What changed for the Warriors in the second half was that they decided to see how much fouling they could get away with, and the answer turned out to be, a hell of a lot.

Exactly and I would add the reason they did that was the play at the end of the half where they didn't call the foul on the 3 by Iggy. I think at that point the Warriors sort of decided to push the envelope and see how far the refs would let it go.

There were a couple of drives one each by Iggy and Green where the replay clear as day showed James whacked them on the arm as they were shooting. That's why when the ball went out of Iggy, they gave the Warriors the ball IMO they assumed it was another foul so don't call teh foul give the ball to Warriors. But on replay that one was actually a clean strip.

The thing that surprised me last night was the amount of contact allowed 30 feet away. The contact inside worked to the Warriors advantage as it allowed them to defend a bigger team, but the contact away was just as beneficial to Cleveland because it allowed them to hold, grab, bump, trip etc Curry and Klay the whole game. Curry actually got knocked down on three different 3's last night and never once got the call for falling, in the prior game he got that call/

 

[Russ Smith]

I was only using Lebron as an example. I was thinking more about the Cavaliers fouling Curry hard as a team strategy, to take advantage of the referees swallowing their whistle. I don't think it would work because Curry will get preferential treatment. However, it didn't stop teams relentlessly fouling Nash hard to wear him down. The Cavaliers are outmatched so about the only thing they can try do is throw the Warriors out of rhythm.

Fair enough, but I don't think in THIS series Curry has gotten even close to preferential treatment. He shot 4 FT's before teh 10 last night and I think 6 or 8 of those were after intentional fouls at the end. If you watch off teh ball he is in fact getting beaten up.

 

[TJ]

With Green's constant flailing and nut shots, he should be suspended. This **** is bush league.

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[SO91]

Now show the part where Lebron threw him down, stepped over him while he's on the ground, then yells and calls him a bitch in front of the ref. Green's reaction was uncalled for, but understandable after the crap that happened just before.

 

[SO91]

Teams and fans are always bitching about the refs (myself included in that statement btw), but who thinks the refs might be letting them play and calling less and less as a result of the after game reports on the refs (forgot the actual name for it)? The ref association has made it known they're not happy about the report and transparency after games.

 

[TJ]

Now show the part where Lebron threw him down, stepped over him while he's on the ground, then yells and calls him a bitch in front of the ref. Green's reaction was uncalled for, but understandable after the crap that happened just before.

A little embellished account of the situation on your part. Even if this is half right, Green commits the most egregious act, and it's not the first time he's hit a dude below the belt. It's no longer accidental.

So give them both flagrants, but the one with a reputation of cheap shots is one flagrant away from a suspension.

It'd be a catastrophe if Green was allowed to play.