Nets inquire about Barbosa and Diaw

[Irish]

Yeah, 5 years a pro and he doesnt know how to play at the high school level even though he thinks BBall 24/7. POPs just designed defensive schemes to trap amare with the ball and either the clock would wind down and he would passout to somebody with no time left or he'd turn it over. The answer was run the offense through Diaw, not because Diaw is great, but because that was what POPs would give them in taking away the P&R. DA adjusted by going to diaw, it was the best play offered by the spurs defense, not because Diaw is such a stud. If the suns could have managed a game 1 win, the adjustment would have forced the spurs hand to lay off smothering the P&R in game 6, perhaps. Its all in the scouting Inc., reports.

I agree. As long as you use three guys to deal with the Suns pick and roll, it can be stopped. The issue is how do you respond and it took D'Antoni quite a while to figure it out.

 

[nowagimp]

I agree. As long as you use three guys to deal with the Suns pick and roll, it can be stopped. The issue is how do you respond and it took D'Antoni quite a while to figure it out.

The suns perimeter shooters outside raja stunk, that helped to make playing the pick and roll with 3 guys easier. Also if they were going to adjust, amare would have to pass the ball. He didnt, so they just didnt go to him, he and nash became decoys for the triple team. I suspect that the problem with amare is that he couldnt not attack due to his ego/childlike mind. When the hornets aggressively trapped Tim Duncan, he passed to ball to manu or TP or Finley, whoever. No basketball player can just fight through a home cooked playoff defense designed to stop them. Lebron was humbled by the C's defense and he adjusted, but it took awhile. Amare was controlled by the spurs and he didnt adjust. Melo was trapped by the lakers and the nugs went down easy. JJ had to accept what the C's were throwing at him, it was nasty, but he learned from that series. My question is what have the suns and amare in particular learned from this playoff? I suspect it just showed that this team played a whole 30 some games together and just a few playoff games, not enough to adjust to playoff defenses that take away what teams want to do. The spurs became a 3pt shootinhg team in the last game of the hornets series, only 18 points in the paint and 36 from 3. Yet the spurs are a team that scores alot in the paint typically, but Byron scott took that away with a special defensive plan. All the doubling of TD did appear to take a toll on the hornets whose young legs looked very old in the 4th quarter of the last game. They just didnt seem to have the energy to recover and close out the shooters.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yeah if we had fed the beast into POPs defense a little more his A/TO ratio could have gone from 0.14 to like 0.05!!

That's assuming he would not be fouled and end up at the Free throw line. Besides, his job wasn't to distribute the ball in this system either so Assist to Turnover ration means squat. Touches to shot attempts would be more meaningful. Besides this entire team had a huge problem with turnovers. Including our leader Nash. Amare's job in this system was to score down low and he did that with the rest of the team having balanced scoring. Amare was one of the leaders in the NBA at getting to the line.

Again, Suns had balanced scoring. Teams like the Nugz did not. Huge difference. Teams like the Lakers pre-this year...again big difference. If Amare was jacking up 40 shots per night then I would agree. He doesn't even come close to that. The guy puts up 20 shots per game and makes about 50%. Thats a great FG ratio and the team still has balanced scoring.

The Suns had 5 guys in the top 45 in the NBA at FGA per game. The entire Suns FGA per game is inflated because of the system. That applies to every guy on this team and not just Amare. Again...load of crap. If you want to argue if he passed more the team would be more efficient then I will buy that. It would lead to more easy buckets. However, if you noticed that Amare did start doing some of just that after the Shaq trade.

Guys like Iverson have shown the ability to get 20 assists in one game. Iverson just usually chooses to shoot himself. When has Amare ever show the ability or IQ to play like that? If he had shown that and just decided not to pass that would be one thing. I have scene no evidence of that. I have seen no evidence that Amare's scoring comes at the expense of his team mates scoring a la the Nuggets. I would hardly call that a black hole.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Are you just assuming that Amare can't pass out of double teams?

Yes. Amare for all his physical talent is still a very raw, low IQ player.

 

[PoolBoy]

get melo!

 

[SirStefan32]

Two years ago everyone was upset that the team might not extend Diaw. Now he's the #1 most hated guy on the team. Like everyone else, I've been unhappy with Diaw not playing up to his potential, but this hatred seems to me a bit over done.

The criticism of Barbosa is based in part on the problems he has with the Spurs in the playoffs, but Diaw had a pretty good series against the Spurs: 14.6 ppg, 54.7% shooting, 5.6 rpg, and 4.6 assists. In his last two games when moved to SF:

Game 4 - 20 points on 10 or 19, 10 rebounds, 8 assists
Game 5 - 22 points on 11 of 17 8 rebounds, 8 assists

What was more imporessive was that he guarded Tony Parker who went

Game 4 - 7 of 17
Game 5 - 9 of 21

Before giving up on Diaw, I'd like to see him on the wing rather than being overpowered on the inside all the time. I never thought he would be able to defend the quicker wings, but if he can limit Parker, then that's not a big concern.

One other thing, I've been frustrated by the way his time has been wasted playing with the French team. He's never spent his entire summer working on skills development. I'd really like to see what he could do with a reliable three point shot along with better form on free throw shooting.

If Diaw does continue on the inside, he needs to get a lot stronger so he can become a good rebounder. Equally important, the offense would need to be altered so he could play the high post.

While D'Antoni had faith in him, I don't feel Diaw was used properly.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[cly2tw]

As to Amare's (in)ability to pass out of double team, we don't have enough evidence to make a civil judgment yet. He rarely was put on low post and only doubled some of the time.

He passes quite well for a bigman when he does. His turnovers are not from intercepted passes but stolen from him, sometimes due to difficult passes to him in the paint. And facing the basket, you don't have that many good opportunities to pass, in particular if your drives can be so forceful lie Amare's.

Without direct evidence, I'd expect he have no trouble passing out of double team after getting used to low post feeds.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

That's assuming he would not be fouled and end up at the Free throw line. Besides, his job wasn't to distribute the ball in this system either so Assist to Turnover ration means squat. Touches to shot attempts would be more meaningful. Besides this entire team had a huge problem with turnovers. Including our leader Nash. Amare's job in this system was to score down low and he did that with the rest of the team having balanced scoring. Amare was one of the leaders in the NBA at getting to the line.

Again, Suns had balanced scoring. Teams like the Nugz did not. Huge difference. Teams like the Lakers pre-this year...again big difference. If Amare was jacking up 40 shots per night then I would agree. He doesn't even come close to that. The guy puts up 20 shots per game and makes about 50%. Thats a great FG ratio and the team still has balanced scoring.

The Suns had 5 guys in the top 45 in the NBA at FGA per game. The entire Suns FGA per game is inflated because of the system. That applies to every guy on this team and not just Amare. Again...load of crap. If you want to argue if he passed more the team would be more efficient then I will buy that. It would lead to more easy buckets. However, if you noticed that Amare did start doing some of just that after the Shaq trade.

Guys like Iverson have shown the ability to get 20 assists in one game. Iverson just usually chooses to shoot himself. When has Amare ever show the ability or IQ to play like that? If he had shown that and just decided not to pass that would be one thing. I have scene no evidence of that. I have seen no evidence that Amare's scoring comes at the expense of his team mates scoring a la the Nuggets. I would hardly call that a black hole.

Amen.

 

[cly2tw]

That's assuming he would not be fouled and end up at the Free throw line. Besides, his job wasn't to distribute the ball in this system either so Assist to Turnover ration means squat. Touches to shot attempts would be more meaningful. Besides this entire team had a huge problem with turnovers. Including our leader Nash. Amare's job in this system was to score down low and he did that with the rest of the team having balanced scoring. Amare was one of the leaders in the NBA at getting to the line.

Again, Suns had balanced scoring. Teams like the Nugz did not. Huge difference. Teams like the Lakers pre-this year...again big difference. If Amare was jacking up 40 shots per night then I would agree. He doesn't even come close to that. The guy puts up 20 shots per game and makes about 50%. Thats a great FG ratio and the team still has balanced scoring.

The Suns had 5 guys in the top 45 in the NBA at FGA per game. The entire Suns FGA per game is inflated because of the system. That applies to every guy on this team and not just Amare. Again...load of crap. If you want to argue if he passed more the team would be more efficient then I will buy that. It would lead to more easy buckets. However, if you noticed that Amare did start doing some of just that after the Shaq trade.

Guys like Iverson have shown the ability to get 20 assists in one game. Iverson just usually chooses to shoot himself. When has Amare ever show the ability or IQ to play like that? If he had shown that and just decided not to pass that would be one thing. I have scene no evidence of that. I have seen no evidence that Amare's scoring comes at the expense of his team mates scoring a la the Nuggets. I would hardly call that a black hole.

 

[passenger]

if they give (jefferson or harris) and nachbar,i d trade diaw and barbosa

 

[Mainstreet]

Two years ago everyone was upset that the team might not extend Diaw. Now he's the #1 most hated guy on the team. Like everyone else, I've been unhappy with Diaw not playing up to his potential, but this hatred seems to me a bit over done...

Many fans hated D'Antoni and he is gone. They also hated Marion and he is gone. So Diaw has worked his way into this #1 slot (or maybe he was there already). I guess he will be gone soon too and maybe LB as well. Shaq will probably be the next player the fans despise. It's almost like the Roman gladiators... thumbs up or thumbs down.

Personally I lay the problem at the feet of an inexperienced owner and a rookie GM. I know it's easier to put the blame on others because Sarver and Kerr are not going anywhere... at least until the Suns are sold. If you cannot trust their judgment really is there any hope for the Suns future? So I too will hope, but in the back of my mind I wonder when Kerr will make a good trade without getting fleeced or when the Suns will make a good draft pick.

 

[overseascardfan]

I really don't see why DEN does this. Carmelo > Jefferson and you could argue the IMMEDIATE value of Camby vs Lotto Pick. DEN is positioned to have around the 10th pick, which is too late to find an impact big to fill in for Camby. Strange deal....

Heard on KTAR that Carmelo has worn out his welcome in DEN. Pubically called out teamates and coach and the whole DUI thing. Basically hosts said they either got to gid rid of Melo or Karl.

 

[overseascardfan]

First off, the article said nothing about the Suns shopping anyone on the team. Secondly, outside of #10 pick/Jefferson/Harris/Sean Williams and maybe Josh Boone, NJ doesn't have much left for a trade.

Let me try to explain my theory of the trade I proposed.

#1. A lot of people on this board would like to see Diop here. Outside of bidding for him in free agency, the only way to get him here would be S&T. He would be great defensively and on the boards behind Shaq, plus he can shoot.
#2. Nachbar is another guy that would have to be S&T (since he's a free agent). He's another athletic wing that can defend and he can shoot the 3 and would be great on the wing getting wide open passes from Nash.
#3. Marcus Williams, although not a great PG, he's a better distributer than Barbosa and almost as quick. He's give us another year (if needed or wanted) to look for Nash's replacement.
#4. VanHorn, the only thing to say about him is cap relief.
#5. The lottery pick to grab Westbrook


If we could get those pieces I would be happy with the added depth. We'd get 4 for 3 extending our bench depth.

Albeit if we could get say Harris and one of Boone/Sean Williams for Diaw, Barbosa and #15, or Jefferson and Boone/Sean Williams for Barbosa, Diaw and #15. Do I think either of those could happen, honestly No. Hell, maybe we can trade just Barbs for #10 pick and filler I'd do that too. That would give us #10 and #15 to go after Westbrook and a big like McGee or Thompson or an athletic wing in Alexander or Greene.

Give me the bolded and I send Barbs & Diaw in a heartbeat.
Sign Diop w/ MLE and draft Batum & either Rush or the big man from Rider.

Line up

PG - Nash, Harris, Strawberry
SG - Bell, Rush
SF - Batum, Hill, Tucker
PF - Stoudemire, S. Williams
C - O'Neal, Diop

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Harris, Shawn Williams, and their 10 for Barbs, Diaw, and 15 would be phenomenal, and highly unlikely...

 

[nowagimp]

That's assuming he would not be fouled and end up at the Free throw line. Besides, his job wasn't to distribute the ball in this system either so Assist to Turnover ration means squat. Touches to shot attempts would be more meaningful. Besides this entire team had a huge problem with turnovers. Including our leader Nash. Amare's job in this system was to score down low and he did that with the rest of the team having balanced scoring. Amare was one of the leaders in the NBA at getting to the line.

Again, Suns had balanced scoring. Teams like the Nugz did not. Huge difference. Teams like the Lakers pre-this year...again big difference. If Amare was jacking up 40 shots per night then I would agree. He doesn't even come close to that. The guy puts up 20 shots per game and makes about 50%. Thats a great FG ratio and the team still has balanced scoring.

The Suns had 5 guys in the top 45 in the NBA at FGA per game. The entire Suns FGA per game is inflated because of the system. That applies to every guy on this team and not just Amare. Again...load of crap. If you want to argue if he passed more the team would be more efficient then I will buy that. It would lead to more easy buckets. However, if you noticed that Amare did start doing some of just that after the Shaq trade.

Guys like Iverson have shown the ability to get 20 assists in one game. Iverson just usually chooses to shoot himself. When has Amare ever show the ability or IQ to play like that? If he had shown that and just decided not to pass that would be one thing. I have scene no evidence of that. I have seen no evidence that Amare's scoring comes at the expense of his team mates scoring a la the Nuggets. I would hardly call that a black hole.

Amare loses the ball by driving into the double team at the elbow and getting the ball stripped or making a bad pass asfter he's picked up his dribble and committed. If amare is to handle the ball in crunchtime, he must get better at the A/T ratio. The spurs typically lured him into a late double team and then shut off the passing lanes. They varied the help defender(s) to confuse him. Because the guy cant pass well, he's easier to defend in the crunch. Lebron had to learn it, kobe had to learn it, Duncan is a master at it. If suns fans want to know why amare needs to pass well to be used in the crunch, just watch Tim Duncan(or KG) dealing with the double teams in the playoffs. All amares regular season stats mean little when the defenses focus in the playoffs. In the post season the beast will have to learn how to pass or the suns will not win.

 

[cly2tw]

Amare loses the ball by driving into the double team at the elbow and getting the ball stripped or making a bad pass asfter he's picked up his dribble and committed. If amare is to handle the ball in crunchtime, he must get better at the A/T ratio. The spurs typically lured him into a late double team and then shut off the passing lanes. They varied the help defender(s) to confuse him. Because the guy cant pass well, he's easier to defend in the crunch. Lebron had to learn it, kobe had to learn it, Duncan is a master at it. If suns fans want to know why amare needs to pass well to be used in the crunch, just watch Tim Duncan(or KG) dealing with the double teams in the playoffs. All amares regular season stats mean little when the defenses focus in the playoffs. In the post season the beast will have to learn how to pass or the suns will not win.

So, let's agree that we should let Amare learn from failures by taking the ball away from Nash into Amare's hands for as much as possible!

 

[nowagimp]

So, let's agree that we should let Amare learn from failures by taking the ball away from Nash into Amare's hands for as much as possible!

that would be the "amare stoudemire turnover project". It precludes winning for now, but its not like the suns have a very bright future. I guess the question is "how smart is amare, and how long will it take"?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

get melo!

I thought about this last night.

Barbosa, Diaw, and ATL for Melo. Maybe they consider it.

 

[Irish]

Amare loses the ball by driving into the double team at the elbow and getting the ball stripped or making a bad pass asfter he's picked up his dribble and committed. If amare is to handle the ball in crunchtime, he must get better at the A/T ratio. The spurs typically lured him into a late double team and then shut off the passing lanes. They varied the help defender(s) to confuse him. Because the guy cant pass well, he's easier to defend in the crunch. Lebron had to learn it, kobe had to learn it, Duncan is a master at it. If suns fans want to know why amare needs to pass well to be used in the crunch, just watch Tim Duncan(or KG) dealing with the double teams in the playoffs. All amares regular season stats mean little when the defenses focus in the playoffs. In the post season the beast will have to learn how to pass or the suns will not win.

IMHO, the Spurs rotate better than anyone else and it is hard to prepare for what the do. The fact that they do it against everybody suggests that the Suns as a team were not being prepared. Blaming Amare misses the whole point.

The key is to punish the Spurs for double teaming. It was not an accident that the Suns were a lot more successful when Diaw was put in at SF.

 

[cly2tw]

that would be the "amare stoudemire turnover project". It precludes winning for now, but its not like the suns have a very bright future. I guess the question is "how smart is amare, and how long will it take"?

From how Amare developed his game, despite injury, I'm convinced that you will be positively shocked by the results.

 

[arwillan]

Wonder if this is a three way with Denver, Phoenix, and New Jersey? I don't see anything with NJ that the suns would want. However add denver players and maybe we have something to talk about.

the suns would probably kill to get richard jefferson. Devon Harris/Diop together also wouldn't be a bad addition by any means, depending on the price of course

 

[nowagimp]

IMHO, the Spurs rotate better than anyone else and it is hard to prepare for what the do. The fact that they do it against everybody suggests that the Suns as a team were not being prepared. Blaming Amare misses the whole point.

The key is to punish the Spurs for double teaming. It was not an accident that the Suns were a lot more successful when Diaw was put in at SF.

All teams rotate better defensively int he playoffs, the hornets did it to the spurs, but were punished by duncans passing. you cant bet the lakers do it better int he playoffs. Its not about blaming amare, its about recognizing that the offense isnt about one guy no matter how good he is. When amare learns to dish and punish the defense like TD(or at least much better), he will have a greater impact on playoff games. The scouting reports say that forcing the ball to amare is a good way to get the ball stuck in the offense(the goal of the defense), and force the suns to take a lesser shot with the clock winding down. Diaw passes well so its hard to get the ball stopped when it goes to him.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

East Vally Tribune

"The Newark Star-Ledger reported Tuesday the New Jersey Nets made inquires about a trade involving Suns forward Boris Diaw and guard Leandro Barbosa, but sources report the discussions didn’t go far."

I think a barbs/diaw/15 for jefferson/10 would have been super

Nash/10/DJ
Bell/Giricek/Tucker
Jefferson/Hill
Stat/Skinner/FA
Shaq/Stat



superfantastic