New Owner - Mat Ishbia

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's absolutely not the same for every team. Almost every other team has most of their future picks and some young players under long term contracts.

We have no margin for error at all till 2030.

Except for the first rounders in every other year you mean. I love how we trade half the picks and it’s a disaster. We keep half the picks and somehow those don’t count.

 

[Hoop Head]

Except for the first rounders in every other year you mean. I love how we trade half the picks and it’s a disaster. We keep half the picks and somehow those don’t count.

Really going to pretend like you don't understand people mean we don't have any 1st picks that can be traded until 2030 when we're all specifically discussing assets. Ok.

We've also made swaps with a number of teams so the picks are virtually guaranteed to be in the mid to late 20's. What sort of value can those bring in, even when we can trade them on draft night? Landry Shamet types? Well that alleviates all concerns.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, those 1st round picks the Suns have every other year will be later picks.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Suns don't try to slide down a bit with those and try to add more 2nd round picks so they have assets in the drafts where they don't have any picks.

 

[Covert Rain]

L

Except for the first rounders in every other year you mean. I love how we trade half the picks and it’s a disaster. We keep half the picks and somehow those don’t count.

Not to mention none of those picks, barring a disaster, are going to convey to much which is also frequently left out.

 

[Phrazbit]

L

Not to mention none of those picks, barring a disaster, are going to convey to much which is also frequently left out.

With the pick swaps, regardless of our play, the Suns will pick towards the end of the 1st round.

I hope there is a major investment in scouting and development, we’re going to require some alchemy.

Odds are pretty high that we’re going to give out a premium pick or 2 at the end of the decade.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Really going to pretend like you don't understand people mean we don't have any 1st picks that can be traded until 2030 when we're all specifically discussing assets. Ok.

We've also made swaps with a number of teams so the picks are virtually guaranteed to be in the mid to late 20's. What sort of value can those bring in, even when we can trade them on draft night? Landry Shamet types? Well that alleviates all concerns.

Just where do you think picks of a team with Booker, beal, Ayton, and for a few years with KD are going to be? You expecting those pick swaps to be lotto? Cmon man.

 

[Hoop Head]

Just where do you think picks of a team with Booker, beal, Ayton, and for a few years with KD are going to be? You expecting those pick swaps to be lotto? Cmon man.

Mid to late teens is possible depending on their health. It almost happened last season when KD went down after he made his debut. The West was a tight race and falling to the play in was a possibility. This is also the last year I think we can count on KD to play at a top 10-15 level player given his age and injury history. We really don't know how everyone will gel and how many games we'll see our Big 3 together. This years pick isn't an issue but 2026 and 2028 could be, for sure.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Mid to late teens is possible depending on their health. It almost happened last season when KD went down after he made his debut. The West was a tight race and falling to the play in was a possibility. This is also the last year I think we can count on KD to play at a top 10-15 level player given his age and injury history. We really don't know how everyone will gel and how many games we'll see our Big 3 together. This years pick isn't an issue but 2026 and 2028 could be, for sure.

Okay, I’m not quite as pessimistic as you with book, beal, Ayton and continued interest by high level role players. But even mid to late teens aren’t premium picks and seem to be wildly unpredictable like those in 20s. I’m not equating the the two, mind you, I get incremental value of getting to choose earlier - I’m just not sure it ensures anything. I mean you can through a run of bender-chriss-jackson with high lotto picks so mid to late teens doesn’t bother much compared to likely early 20s (which may not happen either when you consider it’s the nets and wiz - so they would have to be better than us to force a swap).

 

[Hoop Head]

Okay, I’m not quite as pessimistic as you with book, beal, Ayton and continued interest by high level role players. But even mid to late teens aren’t premium picks and seem to be wildly unpredictable like those in 20s. I’m not equating the the two, mind you, I get incremental value of getting to choose earlier - I’m just not sure it ensures anything. I mean you can through a run of bender-chriss-jackson with high lotto picks so mid to late teens doesn’t bother much compared to likely early 20s (which may not happen either when you consider it’s the nets and wiz - so they would have to be better than us to force a swap).

It isn't just the Wiz and Nets anymore. We made that deal sending Todd to Memphis and offered swap rights there. We also have traded swap rights with Orlando, which is how we got some 2nd rounders. So there's 4 teams now we need to finish better than, which really puts us in an awkward position. I've never seen a pick swapped that often, definitely not a 1st.

 

[Mainstreet]

It isn't just the Wiz and Nets anymore. We made that deal sending Todd to Memphis and offered swap rights there. We also have traded swap rights with Orlando, which is how we got some 2nd rounders. So there's 4 teams now we need to finish better than, which really puts us in an awkward position. I've never seen a pick swapped that often, definitely not a 1st.

The Suns have to have excellent scouting going forward, with no room for error, if they are to make it through the lean years.

I hope Ishbia is devoted to this along with adding a G-League team.

James Jones will have to change his mind about skeletons, which he may already have with the selection of Toumani Camara or it could be he will continue to look towards older, more proven players in the draft and free agency.

 

[Chaplin]

It isn't just the Wiz and Nets anymore. We made that deal sending Todd to Memphis and offered swap rights there. We also have traded swap rights with Orlando, which is how we got some 2nd rounders. So there's 4 teams now we need to finish better than, which really puts us in an awkward position. I've never seen a pick swapped that often, definitely not a 1st.

Neither have the Suns, and they are clearly betting that it's not going to happen here.

 

[Hoop Head]

The Suns have to have excellent scouting going forward, with no room for error, if they are to make it through the lean years.

I hope Ishbia is devoted to this along with adding a G-League team.

James Jones will have to change his mind about skeletons, which he may already have with the selection of Toumani Camara or it could be he will continue to look towards older, more proven players in the draft and free agency.

I'd add that Ishbia will also need to open his wallet to retain role players also. Sure, we got lucky and got some guys who should be able to contribute this season but all you have to do is look around the league at other contenders and the level of players they add for the minimum go down as their window closes. Golden State is a good example. They had their pick of the litter when KD was there but over the last few years they've had to settle for what's left after stronger teams on paper snatch up the cream of the crop.

I was disappointed we didn't retain Craig, for example, as we had bird rights so there shouldn't have been an issue bringing him back. Same goes for Cam Payne. I don't think it's fair to single out 1 player as far as they'd cost 3-4 times their salary since we're in the tax because those players didn't push us into the tax. It's an accumulation of everyone's salary that does that. We could say Ayton is costing the Suns close to $60 million since we could trade him away for tax relief and pay no tax, for example. It's too easy to contort the narrative.

Point being, minimum guys are ok right now but we'll need to keep guys who contribute and reward them if we hope to build a team that competes regularly. Having 3-4 high salary guys and everyone else making the league minimum puts a lot of pressure on the top guys and isn't sustainable long term.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'd add that Ishbia will also need to open his wallet to retain role players also. Sure, we got lucky and got some guys who should be able to contribute this season but all you have to do is look around the league at other contenders and the level of players they add for the minimum go down as their window closes. Golden State is a good example. They had their pick of the litter when KD was there but over the last few years they've had to settle for what's left after stronger teams on paper snatch up the cream of the crop.

I was disappointed we didn't retain Craig, for example, as we had bird rights so there shouldn't have been an issue bringing him back. Same goes for Cam Payne. I don't think it's fair to single out 1 player as far as they'd cost 3-4 times their salary since we're in the tax because those players didn't push us into the tax. It's an accumulation of everyone's salary that does that. We could say Ayton is costing the Suns close to $60 million since we could trade him away for tax relief and pay no tax, for example. It's too easy to contort the narrative.

Point being, minimum guys are ok right now but we'll need to keep guys who contribute and reward them if we hope to build a team that competes regularly. Having 3-4 high salary guys and everyone else making the league minimum puts a lot of pressure on the top guys and isn't sustainable long term.

I'm wondering if the Suns will be able to keep players like Drew Eubanks if they have a good season. I see this as a problem as other teams will be able to pay him more. As I understand it, a lot of minimum players will revert to free agency after the season.

Personally, I preferred keeping Payne over Craig but I would have liked to keep both.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Suns have to have excellent scouting going forward, with no room for error, if they are to make it through the lean years.

I hope Ishbia is devoted to this along with adding a G-League team.

James Jones will have to change his mind about skeletons, which he may already have with the selection of Toumani Camara or it could be he will continue to look towards older, more proven players in the draft and free agency.

What I’ve not seen anyone consider: what’s to stop ishbia from restocking in “the lean years” with the same strategy? Each year that goes by brings another future first round pick into the mix. When KD is ready to hang them up there will be two first round picks available into the future. If there’s a disgruntled late 20s star that wants to play with a 33 year old beal and 29 year book maybe they just leveraging their future by sending out future picks with the current pick they own in that particular every other year. It’s kind of like how some nfl teams just keep pushing dollars into future cap space. Conceptually you could do this in perpetuity if you so desired. Is it likely? No. But it’s certainly a possibility. Suppose the suns hit a #2 or #3 star, or even another cam Johnson with one the next two draft picks they own, four years from now when KD hangs em up they could offer that player, the current draft pick and two more future firsts for an impact player alongside beal and book. Just takes some creative thinking.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'd add that Ishbia will also need to open his wallet to retain role players also. Sure, we got lucky and got some guys who should be able to contribute this season but all you have to do is look around the league at other contenders and the level of players they add for the minimum go down as their window closes. Golden State is a good example. They had their pick of the litter when KD was there but over the last few years they've had to settle for what's left after stronger teams on paper snatch up the cream of the crop.

I was disappointed we didn't retain Craig, for example, as we had bird rights so there shouldn't have been an issue bringing him back. Same goes for Cam Payne. I don't think it's fair to single out 1 player as far as they'd cost 3-4 times their salary since we're in the tax because those players didn't push us into the tax. It's an accumulation of everyone's salary that does that. We could say Ayton is costing the Suns close to $60 million since we could trade him away for tax relief and pay no tax, for example. It's too easy to contort the narrative.

Point being, minimum guys are ok right now but we'll need to keep guys who contribute and reward them if we hope to build a team that competes regularly. Having 3-4 high salary guys and everyone else making the league minimum puts a lot of pressure on the top guys and isn't sustainable long term.

Hmm that GS team just had Gary Payton II and Otto Porter as free agents when they won the championship again in ‘22. And that squad was already pretty deep.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What I’ve not seen anyone consider: what’s to stop ishbia from restocking in “the lean years” with the same strategy? Each year that goes by brings another future first round pick into the mix. When KD is ready to hang them up there will be two first round picks available into the future.

Bingo. So much short-sided thinking.

 

[Proximo]

Except for the first rounders in every other year you mean. I love how we trade half the picks and it’s a disaster. We keep half the picks and somehow those don’t count.

We traded swaps for every other year - and If you are over the 2nd apron you get your pick at the end of the first - so that means even those are likely to be basically 2nd round picks.

It will be a disaster unless we get extremely lucky with our late picks, and continue winning enough to still be able to entice some decent free agents to take minimum deals.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns can't trade future 1st round picks until 2030. Actually, it may be 2031. It's the Stepien Rule.

 

[Hoop Head]

Hmm that GS team just had Gary Payton II and Otto Porter as free agents when they won the championship again in ‘22. And that squad was already pretty deep.

Otto Porter played well for Golden State in their run but did nothing after. He was almost out of the league before the Warriors gave him a look also.

GP2 was also on the verge of being out of the league before Golden State gave him a look.

Neither one was retained by Golden State either, despite being quality contributors. They didn't replace them either. So if anything that speaks to my point, Ishbia will need to open his wallet and retain some guys when we're able to if they prove their worth. Simply letting them walk and regularly replacing them with whoever we can sign for less isn't a recipe for sustained success.

 

[Superbone]

What I’ve not seen anyone consider: what’s to stop ishbia from restocking in “the lean years” with the same strategy? Each year that goes by brings another future first round pick into the mix. When KD is ready to hang them up there will be two first round picks available into the future. If there’s a disgruntled late 20s star that wants to play with a 33 year old beal and 29 year book maybe they just leveraging their future by sending out future picks with the current pick they own in that particular every other year. It’s kind of like how some nfl teams just keep pushing dollars into future cap space. Conceptually you could do this in perpetuity if you so desired. Is it likely? No. But it’s certainly a possibility. Suppose the suns hit a #2 or #3 star, or even another cam Johnson with one the next two draft picks they own, four years from now when KD hangs em up they could offer that player, the current draft pick and two more future firsts for an impact player alongside beal and book. Just takes some creative thinking.

Yep. I'm hoping Ishbia runs it like the Spurs where they had a 20 year period of greatness. Of course they had some luck along the way. Robinson, Duncan, and now Winnebago?! But they also had some excellent talent evaluation along the way. Ginobili and Parker come to mind.

 

[Raindog]

The Suns can't trade future 1st round picks until 2030. Actually, it may be 2031. It's the Stepien Rule.

The Suns don't actually have to wait until 2030 to trade a first round pick. They just can't trade a first round pick from further into the future than seven years from now at the moment. At the end of next season, they will be able to trade their 2031 pick if it doesn't violate the consecutive year rule.

I'm not sure if that's what you were intending to state, but the most literal interpretation of what you did state is incorrect.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The Suns don't actually have to wait until 2030 to trade a first round pick. They just can't trade a first round pick from further into the future than seven years from now at the moment. At the end of next season, they will be able to trade their 2031 pick if it doesn't violate the consecutive year rule.

I'm not sure if that's what you were intending to state, but the most literal interpretation of what you did state is incorrect.

Plus, each year we can trade any first round pick we have but not until the draft.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns don't actually have to wait until 2030 to trade a first round pick. They just can't trade a first round pick from further into the future than seven years from now at the moment. At the end of next season, they will be able to trade their 2031 pick if it doesn't violate the consecutive year rule.

I'm not sure if that's what you were intending to state, but the most literal interpretation of what you did state is incorrect.

I mentioned the Suns would be able to trade their 2031 first round draft pick. Then one would have to project spacing without violating the seven-year rule going forward.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Suns can't trade future 1st round picks until 2030. Actually, it may be 2031. It's the Stepien Rule.

No… the Suns can trade future picks NEXT OFF-SEASON for the future drafts starting in 2031. They can also trade their 1st round pick next year on draft day.

You make it seem like from 2023 to 2030, the Suns can’t trade draft picks. That’s just dead wrong.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The Suns can't trade future 1st round picks until 2030. Actually, it may be 2031. It's the Stepien Rule.

That’s not stated accurately. We can’t trade any of the picks beyond 2030 at present, but every additional year we move forward brings another fitire pick into play. Next year 2031, 2025 the 2032 pick, and on and on. We won’t trade any of those for few years while we still have KD, but when he’s ready to hang them up we likely have two more distant firsts to trade and wherever our current pick lands in a given year where we still have one.