New Rumblings from ProFootball Weekly (NOT PFT)

[CtCardinals78]

I agree that Green's drafting was mediocre at best.

Edit - That being said the reason Green looked like he was doing well, was because the drafts before him were abominations.

His 2005 draft class was a disaster. Funny how everyone gave us A's at the time. That draft class was a C at best and that's being VERY generous.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I am agreeing with you that once the real games start he will disappear ...

The annual timeline of Calvin Pace's career goes something like this...

May - Pace looks really well in mini-camp. Might make an impact this year at [insert defensive position here] which is his 'natural' position.

June/July - Pace is spending a lot of time around Cardinal headquarters and is impressing the coaching staff with his effort. Look for him to challenge for a starting role in upcoming training camp.

August - Pace is mauling the 2nd string Cardinal offensive line in camp and appears to be just as impressive against the vanilla blocking schemes of the 2nd team defenses he's facing in preseason games. Might be a candidate for breakout defensive player.

September-December - Pace is a liability on defense and creates minimal big plays. He manages to look uncomfortable and/or outmatched at linebacker and on the defensive line.

January - Pace along with his draft classmate Bryant Johnson get mention at the Pro Bowl Selection Show, when one of the analysts remind all of us they were the reason the Cardinals did not pick Terrel Suggs, Troy Palamalu, or Marcus Trufant.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

[kerouac9]

His 2005 draft class was a disaster. Funny how everyone gave us A's at the time. That draft class was a C at best and that's being VERY generous.

For what it's worth, the entire 2005 draft was a disaster. Graves put is in a pickle for having to draft cornerbacks on the first day. If you play the old what was the best case scenario for our draft game, I guess it might have looked something like this:

1st round: Carlos Rogers, CB, Auburn
2nd round: Lofa Tatupu, LB, Southern Cal
3rd round: Ellis Hobbs, CB, Iowa State
3rd round: Brandon Jacobs, RB, Southern Illinois
4th round: Chris Canty, DE, Virginia
5th round: Antaaj Hawthorne, DT, Wisconsin
7th round: Darrell Schropshire, DT, South Carolina

This may be the best we could have done with our needs going into that draft, and I'm not sure that it would have made that much of a difference on the field. The 2005 draft was as craptacular as the 2006 draft was unbelievably awesome.

 

[40yearfan]

For what it's worth, the entire 2005 draft was a disaster. Graves put is in a pickle for having to draft cornerbacks on the first day. If you play the old what was the best case scenario for our draft game, I guess it might have looked something like this:

1st round: Carlos Rogers, CB, Auburn
2nd round: Lofa Tatupu, LB, Southern Cal
3rd round: Ellis Hobbs, CB, Iowa State
3rd round: Brandon Jacobs, RB, Southern Illinois
4th round: Chris Canty, DE, Virginia
5th round: Antaaj Hawthorne, DT, Wisconsin
7th round: Darrell Schropshire, DT, South Carolina

This may be the best we could have done with our needs going into that draft, and I'm not sure that it would have made that much of a difference on the field. The 2005 draft was as craptacular as the 2006 draft was unbelievably awesome.

Funny how all the good things that happen in the draft were due to Green and all the bad things were due to Graves. Ain't selective memory wonderful?

 

[joeshmo]

On the topic of Greens drafts. I don't think we can accurately judge them until a real coaching staff has had their hands on them. The training our rookies have received under Green is just plain old crap, especially our DB's, mostly the CB's because our now assistant DB coach and then DC quality control coach Rick Courtright was actually coaching the Safeties(doing a great job by the way) while Greens crony(worst coach in the NFL) forgot his name already was handling the CB's. I ask myself what could these highly touted rookies have done under a Patriots coaching staff or a Pitt coaching staff or a San Diego coaching staff? We will find out soon enough.

 

[kerouac9]

On the topic of Greens drafts. I don't think we can accurately judge them until a real coaching staff has had their hands on them. The training our rookies have received under Green is just plain old crap, especially our DB's, mostly the CB's because our now assistant DB coach and then DC quality control coach Rick Courtright was actually coaching the Safeties(doing a great job by the way) while Greens crony(worst coach in the NFL) forgot his name already was handling the CB's. I ask myself what could these highly touted rookies have done under a Patriots coaching staff or a Pitt coaching staff or a San Diego coaching staff? We will find out soon enough.

That's a good point. You have to wonder if the job Solomon did was so bad that it ruined our cornerbacks for their careers, though. Also, you have to wonder whether at some point we might have seen something out of the former #5 overall draft pick. We've seen more out of Eric Green.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

His 2005 draft class was a disaster. Funny how everyone gave us A's at the time. That draft class was a C at best and that's being VERY generous.

Yeah.

That is what I was trying to say. I never said that Green did a horrible job, but then again I don't think his drafts lived up to the hype they received.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Funny how all the good things that happen in the draft were due to Green and all the bad things were due to Graves. Ain't selective memory wonderful?

Well, when Graves drafts guys like Calvin Pace and Bryant Johnson and then Green arrives and the picks are Fitz, Rolle, Leinart it's pretty easy to come to a conclusion.Now, in the first year since DG left, the Cards again reached for a lower ranked player of need at their top spot. Whether the players turn out good,or not, it was widely accepted that Green got good value,prospect-wise, in all of his picks. You can't even remotely say that about Graves drafts.

 

[football karma]

Whether the players turn out good,or not, it was widely accepted that Green got good value,prospect-wise, in all of his picks. You can't even remotely say that about Graves drafts.

In fairness, I would say Graves got good value out of Anquan Boldin, Adrian Wilson and Reggie Wells.

 

[BigRedRage]

That's a good point. You have to wonder if the job Solomon did was so bad that it ruined our cornerbacks for their careers, though. Also, you have to wonder whether at some point we might have seen something out of the former #5 overall draft pick. We've seen more out of Eric Green.

Rolle was #8 wasnt he?

A top pick like that shouldnt NEED coaching to be at par, coaching is supposed to make you elite, he is supposed to be able to play right out the gates.

 

[football karma]

Rolle was #8 wasnt he?

A top pick like that shouldnt NEED coaching to be at par, coaching is supposed to make you elite, he is supposed to be able to play right out the gates.

I dont necessarily agree.

With hindsight, the first hint that things might take some time was when after the first minicamp Rolle was talking about never playing "off" coverage before and needing to work on it.

Quentin Jammer is a good example. Guy drafted higher than Rolle, supposedly NFL ready, and its taken him three years. His first year he was a disaster. The Raiders drafted a corner in the first round ( I wont even try the name its so complicated) -- disaster year one, probowl year three.

This is an important year for Rolle. He needs to show significant progress. I also think he needs to slim down. Last year he seemed too bulked up and looked tight in all his movements.

 

[kerouac9]

I dont necessarily agree.

With hindsight, the first hint that things might take some time was when after the first minicamp Rolle was talking about never playing "off" coverage before and needing to work on it.

Quentin Jammer is a good example. Guy drafted higher than Rolle, supposedly NFL ready, and its taken him three years. His first year he was a disaster. The Raiders drafted a corner in the first round ( I wont even try the name its so complicated) -- disaster year one, probowl year three.

This is an important year for Rolle. He needs to show significant progress. I also think he needs to slim down. Last year he seemed too bulked up and looked tight in all his movements.

Different scenarios. The Oakland player (Asomugha) was drafted 31st overall and was playing behind Charles Woodson, among others. Totally different deal.

Jammer held out into the regular season his rookie year with the Chargers. Despite only appearing in 14 games, he still racked up 10 passes defensed and over 50 tackles. Without a training camp. His second season, he had 4 INTs and 13 passes defensed. Then they changed the enforcement rules and he had to re-learn his position. Despite all that, he got a huge contract extension this last season. Did he live up to his draft hype? Of course not, but few players ever do. By the way, Quentin Jammer has been in the league for 4 years now.

Pacman Jones had been much better than Antrel Rolle on the field, and Carlos Rogers has been much better than Rolle on the field. Rolle had a better pass rush in front of him than Rogers did, even though (legitimately) Rogers is playing against lesser players.

If you're drafted in the Top 10 as a cornerback, you better be able to play all kinds of coverage. Most corners in the NFL play off-man coverage, because WRs are so quick off the ball. 2 INTs in 2 seasons, despite getting picked on over and over again? That's not quite Tommy Knight numbers, but it's kinda close...

 

[jefftheshark]

2 INTs in 2 seasons, despite getting picked on over and over again?

To be fair, Rolle did miss the majority of his first season to injury.

But I still have a hard time forgiving him for the dropped interception at the end of the half in the Cowboys game. That ill-advised fake spike that Romo threw into the endzone should have been caught and returned for a TD. It would have completely changed the momentum of that dismal game.

JTS

 

[Mulli]

Antrel Rollemetheballsoicancatchit.

 

[football karma]

Different scenarios. The Oakland player (Asomugha) was drafted 31st overall and was playing behind Charles Woodson, among others. Totally different deal.

Jammer held out into the regular season his rookie year with the Chargers. Despite only appearing in 14 games, he still racked up 10 passes defensed and over 50 tackles. Without a training camp. His second season, he had 4 INTs and 13 passes defensed. Then they changed the enforcement rules and he had to re-learn his position. Despite all that, he got a huge contract extension this last season. Did he live up to his draft hype? Of course not, but few players ever do. By the way, Quentin Jammer has been in the league for 4 years now.

Pacman Jones had been much better than Antrel Rolle on the field, and Carlos Rogers has been much better than Rolle on the field. Rolle had a better pass rush in front of him than Rogers did, even though (legitimately) Rogers is playing against lesser players.

If you're drafted in the Top 10 as a cornerback, you better be able to play all kinds of coverage. Most corners in the NFL play off-man coverage, because WRs are so quick off the ball. 2 INTs in 2 seasons, despite getting picked on over and over again? That's not quite Tommy Knight numbers, but it's kinda close...

Keep in mind Rolle only played in 5 games his rookie season, one of which he was on the field for about 10 minutes before being forced to leave with the knee injury.

In his first full season (this past year), he was credited with 79 tackles, 11 passes defended -- not totally at odds with Jammer's first full year.

Let me be clear -- I dont beleive that ALL cbs (or any position for that matter) need three years -- but some do. I think its true for Rolle -- a guy that probably spent his time at Miami playing mostly bump and run, where he could use his superior size and strength to negate guys at the line. I think that he really could have used some great coaching everyday on the technique of playing the position. My guess with Soloman is he didnt get that.

Finally, the Wolfley theory on the Cards CB's is that Denny's quick hook (Macklin being benched after one series, week one for example) and many subsequent changes destroyed the one thing a CB needs -- confidence. Wolfley thinks they played scared and tentative most of the year. Who kows.

 

[kerouac9]

To be fair, Rolle did miss the majority of his first season to injury.

But I still have a hard time forgiving him for the dropped interception at the end of the half in the Cowboys game. That ill-advised fake spike that Romo threw into the endzone should have been caught and returned for a TD. It would have completely changed the momentum of that dismal game.

JTS

Carlos Rogers has 3 INTs and 21 passes defensed in 27 games. Pacman had 4 INTs last seasons and 23 career passes defensed. Fabian Washington had 4 INTs last season and 20 career passes defensed. Darrent Williams has 6 INTs and 19 career passes defensed.

I don't think that we intended to draft the 6th best cornerback in the draft with the 8th overall selection, and I think that Antrel Rolle deserves some criticism for playing without any pride at all for the past two seasons.

 

[joeshmo]

Rolle was #8 wasnt he?

A top pick like that shouldnt NEED coaching to be at par, coaching is supposed to make you elite, he is supposed to be able to play right out the gates.

I got to disagree with the idea that a #8 pick shouldnt need coaching. College to the NFL is a very different game, and if not taught the little things they will not suceed. But thats a debate for another time.

Lets say that a #8 pick shouldnt need coaching to be at par and good coaching should make you elite. I contend that the opposite is true as well, bad coaching can make you below average or bad, just as much as a good coach can make you elite. Players can regress under bad coaching.

 

[football karma]

Carlos Rogers has 3 INTs and 21 passes defensed in 27 games. Pacman had 4 INTs last seasons and 23 career passes defensed. Fabian Washington had 4 INTs last season and 20 career passes defensed. Darrent Williams has 6 INTs and 19 career passes defensed.

I don't think that we intended to draft the 6th best cornerback in the draft with the 8th overall selection, and I think that Antrel Rolle deserves some criticism for playing without any pride at all for the past two seasons.

Rolle needs to improve, no question.

But again, to be fair -- both Washington and Williams have played in more games -- 30 and 28 respectively -- vs 21 for Rolle. Both Washingtons and Williams ints and Pass defended have come disproportionately from their second full season, rather than their first-- suggesting that game experience (and perhaps coaching during the season as well) is a key factor in production.

This year is a really key year for Rolle. THis year (again, really his second year of game experience) is the year most of the guys you cite have really ramped up their production.

BTW-- I dont think Pacman is comparable for two reasons-- he wasnt available to the Cards, and I think you have to evaluate the whole person. I think the Titans would trade Pacman to the Cards straight up for Rolle right now.

 

[kerouac9]

I don't know en fuego. It seems like people were saying the same thing about Josh McCown, and it turned out that he just wasn't very good after all. I'm not buying it from Antrel Rolle, who has shown even less over the first two seasons of his career than McCown did.

EDIT: Further, DeAngelo Hall only appeared in 10 games as a rookie, but still collected 2 INTs. His second season, he collected 6 INTs.

 

[BigRedRage]

I got to disagree with the idea that a #8 pick shouldnt need coaching. College to the NFL is a very different game, and if not taught the little things they will not suceed. But thats a debate for another time.

Lets say that a #8 pick shouldnt need coaching to be at par and good coaching should make you elite. I contend that the opposite is true as well, bad coaching can make you below average or bad, just as much as a good coach can make you elite. Players can regress under bad coaching.

I dont think he does not need coaching however he should be able to perform at least a par level without it.

PS: I like Rolle and think he is our best wrap up tackle guy, I just refuse to make excuses for his efforts.

 

[joeshmo]

I dont think he does not need coaching however he should be able to perform at least a par level without it.

So you dont think bad coaching can make a player regress? Happens all the time, then they go to another team and the all of a sudden play much, much better.

 

[BigRedRage]

So you dont think bad coaching can make a player regress? Happens all the time, then they go to another team and the all of a sudden play much, much better.

It can make you regress but you should still be able to play, talent is talent. Truth will tell this year but I think he should have played better than he has.

 

[Duckjake]

It can make you regress but you should still be able to play, talent is talent. Truth will tell this year but I think he should have played better than he has.

Poor schemes can also make a player look worse than he is. Coaches have to put players in a position to succeed.

Texas, for instance, finally won a National Championship when they stopped forcing their QB to run a horizontal passing game and freed him up to do what he did best.



The biggest difference I see in the overall talent level is that Green's players actually stay in the NFL if they are released by the Cards.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I don't know en fuego. It seems like people were saying the same thing about Josh McCown, and it turned out that he just wasn't very good after all. I'm not buying it from Antrel Rolle, who has shown even less over the first two seasons of his career than McCown did.

EDIT: Further, DeAngelo Hall only appeared in 10 games as a rookie, but still collected 2 INTs. His second season, he collected 6 INTs.

DeAngelo Hall, my choice for most overrate CB in the league. He's fast, runs his mouth, and gets burned deep more than any CB i saw last year. I will give him that when he does make a play,he can score a TD every time he touches the ball. Champ Bailey is the best and Antonio Winfield is the most underrated, to me that is. I predict Rolle will have a godd year this year. If he doesn't then he probably will go the path of Duane Starks.