NFC West championship or bust?

[Cheesebeef]

Haha. When did I say those guys were chopped liver or replaceable? Putting words in others mouths again I guess.

is it just because most of the time I've seen eye to eye with K9 or is this ALWAYS how he's debated people's he's disagreed with because holy cow am I seeing arguments made by him projecting ridiculous arguments into other people's to try and make his points?

Hey, you did mention Chike (out of the league), Antonio Smith (non-factor in Houston), and Berry (injury-prone and non-productive his last two years), and Mike Gandy (out of the league). At that point why not Ben Patrick? Who knows what the future holds for Breaston but to categorize him as as a non-core guy after his last two seasons is ridiculous.

So 1700 yards receiving for Steve or Hightower's 18 touchdowns weren't helping us win games the last couple years? Got it. It was all Mike Gandy, Chike Okeafor, and Bert Berry.

I found this cherry-picking of who was and wasn't a core part of the playoff teams pretty funny as well. Listing Chike/Gandy and Berry as part of the core missing while beginning the argument by saying the only ones left are Dockett and Fitz.

that's not to say a significant amount of the core is different now... it is, but really NONE of it would have made a difference if Kurt came back. But to insinuate that Dockett and Fitz are the only ones or that someone's counting Sendlien and Patrick as core is just intellectually dishonest.

 

[Duckjake]

Hey, you did mention Chike (out of the league), Antonio Smith (non-factor in Houston), and Berry (injury-prone and non-productive his last two years), and Mike Gandy (out of the league). At that point why not Ben Patrick? Who knows what the future holds for Breaston but to categorize m as as a non-core guy after his last two seasons is ridiculous.

I'm not understanding something. Everyone of those guys were experienced veterans who contributed to the Cards NFC Championship. What does what they are doing now have to do with that? Just curious.

The key is that he Cards have replaced Chike/Berry with Porter and Smith with Campbell and Gandy with, uh nevermind. This is totally unlike 2003 when the Cards replaced 8 guys with one guy who could play and came within one miracle pass of having the first pick in the NFL draft for the first time since 1958.

But my point is that you are replacing guys with 2,3,4 years or so in your system with new guys and there will be a period of adjustment. How long that adjustment takes will be the key to our season imo

What I'm hoping for is Adrian Wilson and Dockett and Porter to take exception to everyone saying the Cards can't win without Warner because the D isn't that good and step up and produce 1994 type defensive results. They definitely have the talent, now that Ddub1 and 2 are looking like real players, on that side of the ball to do it.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

is it just because most of the time I've seen eye to eye with K9 or is this ALWAYS how he's debated people's he's disagreed with because holy cow am I seeing arguments made by him projecting ridiculous arguments into other people's to try and make his points?

Yeah, we almost agreed on everything. This Leinart thing has sent him into ultra-negative mode.

I found this cherry-picking of who was and wasn't a core part of the playoff teams pretty funny as well. Listing Chike/Gandy and Berry as part of the core missing while beginning the argument by saying the only ones left are Dockett and Fitz.

that's not to say a significant amount of the core is different now... it is, but really NONE of it would have made a difference if Kurt came back. But to insinuate that Dockett and Fitz are the only ones or that someone's counting Sendlien and Patrick as core is just intellectually dishonest.

My favorite is when he used the speculation that Steve Breaston would not be back next year as evidence he's not part of this infamous core after referencing Chike, Gandy, Berry, etc. (guys who atfer the season were dispatched by the Cards) as part of said core.

Yeah, things have changed. Kurt is the biggest change because he plays QB. But anyone who says that all we have left from those teams is Dockett and Fitz in all honestly probably never watched those Cards teams. We'd have not made the playoffs without the contributions of Breaston, DRC, AW, and Hightower. Same with Calais last year.

We have a lot back - just need a QB.

 

[82CardsGrad]

To me, core players are guys who help you win football games. Right now, I believe that the core group that the coaching staff is going to try to keep together are Campbell, Dockett, Wilson, DRC, Fitz, Lutui, and maybe Levi Brown if he shows that he's worth his draft status.

But let's not pretend that we have all the core players from our Super Bowl run and last season's playoffs. Campbell hardly played the Super Bowl season, both our pass rushers are gone, a Pro Bowl WR is gone, and a potential Hall of Fame quarterback is gone.

EDIT: On your last point? Of their core players? No, I don't think the Steelers have turned over more. Pittsburgh's core players are Harrison, Woodley, Ike Taylor, Polamalu, Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, Ben Roethlisberger, and Hines Ward. Pretty much everyone else is interchangeable.

Can't believe this topic is now being debated... K9, just curious - how many "core" players does a winning team typically have over time? And, how do you quantify that "time"?? Is it 1 year? 3 years? 5 Years??

This is crazy stuff dude... Whiz has been coaching the Cards for 3 years. What is your expectation around this topic of "core" players as it relates to Whiz? What have other first time coaches done over the first 3 years with regard to this crazy topic of "core" players?? How do you see Whiz comparing to them?

Are you seriously attempting to make the case that the players you selected as "core" would still be here if not for Whiz?? Wow...

 

[Spielman]

Dude, it's the NFC West we're talking about. If you don't win it, you're ****. Heck, if you do win it, it's still entirely possible that you're ****.

 

[Buckybird]

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it the Cards won when they had THE most players with the most years with one team of any team in the NFL. Something I doubt had ever happened since the start of free agency.

I asked before if anyone knows of a team that changed 10 positions in one off season and still did well the next season and as yet no one has replied.

I agree Duck. Chemistry, continuity & talent win this league. Perfect example is the struggles of the Oline. I think it's going to be a struggle this year to win 3 West titles in a row, with alot of new starters but possible.

 

[kerouac9]

Yeah, I got it. We've lost some guys. My issue is that you mentioned that all we have left from those teams is Fitz and Dockett. Grossly incorrect. I also want to mention that NOBODY in the NFL has every part of their core from 2008 still on the roster. Warner and Dansby are the only two that anyone should fret over. Nothing anyone could've done about Kurt and Dansby was a tough loss. Boldin was never going to get paid. One player the FO botched.

The Indianapolis Colts certainly do. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2008.htm

Look, if you believe that everything's strawberries and cream with this team and that we're going to win 11 games again, that's more power to you. I've said multiple times that I think this team is too talented to win fewer than 7 games. A break here and there and we're at 9-7 and probably win the division.

But it's folly to suggest that pointing to five players from the 20th ranked defense in the NFL in 2009 and the 14th ranked scoring defense that we're fine even though we lost two of the three most important pieces of the 14th ranked offense in the NFL and 11th ranked scoring offense.

If you expect me to be impressed because Tim Hightower is still around--well, there aren't a ton of people here who think he should still be the starter, including Cheese. It's like saying that Mwelde Moore is a core player in Pittsburgh.

Do you think that Steve Breaston is a core player? Do you think that he's next on the block for an extension for this team? Honestly?

 

[Mulli]

Can someone explain to me what difference it makes whether Breaston is a core player?

 

[Longcolts]

Can someone explain to me what difference it makes whether Breaston is a core player?

I think the better question is, why is everyone so convinced that the Cards have no chance of re-signing Breaston?

 

[Perfectionist]

As we start the journey to a new season, my heart always tells me super bowl. This year will speak tons about our coaching staff and I hope by the end of the season all doubts will be removed as to whether Whis and his coaches are an elite staff.

I think most of this controversy started when Kurt retired and caught our front office off guard. I believe they thought Kurt would be back and that they could unload Matt this season and get some value for him. I am not sure how this will all play out but one thing for sure, if we can repeat as NFC West champs, Whis should get some recognition for it.