Nuggets @ Suns Friday game thread 3-31-2023

[Hoop Head]

4. JO, I like him as the starter, he is getting better at the corner three and his defense is spectacular

Agree with most everything except this as I don't think he's improved so much as he's streaky as could be. He's either on or off. When he's off, he needs his minutes monitored because he'll do his best to shoot us out of games. He has no fear, which is nice, but I don't believe we'll see consistency from his this season. I hope we can keep him for cheap because he's young, talented, and could be a solid rotation player for years to come.

 

[Pokinmik]

what, the warriors are likely playing us in the first round as the 5 seed. They aren’t dropping lower than 6. I predict the suns will end up the 4, warriors 5, lakers 6, clippers wolves pelicans mavs in the play in spots.

I hope I’m wrong tho, I’d rather not play the warriors first round. Especially with Wiggins possibly returning.

 

[Germz249]

We were up by 27 at one point, nuggets brought it back down to a 4pt lead. Booker got his average but took a lot more shots to do so. Bench only combined for 16pts total. KD was very efficient, Okogie was hot from deep and Ayton did his David Blaine thing again, there one minute...

Also no Landale, no Shamet, no Ish, no Lee, and no Bazley tonight

What is going on with the bench? They will be the down fall of this team..

 

[TJ]

Ayton was largely invisible for most of the game, but it’s hard to ignore that when he went out with his fifth foul, the lead evaporated. Amidst everything, he is still the anchor of the defense and when he’s out, it can be a bit helter skelter.

It’s only five games into the KD era, but I don’t think Ayton and Monty are on the same page as to what his expectations are. Monty has gotten away from CP3/DA P&R that was lethal for a few games. I get that Book and KD are killing it, but that’s not going to last forever and the offense has to be more blended going forward.

I think the one pressing Issue with Ayton right now is that he has no clue how he wants to approach games. It’s obvious he wants to be more aggressive, but when the fouls mount up, I sense that he gets discouraged and gets into his own head. Monty has to help Ayton figure this out, but I don’t think this can be figured out at this point in the season.

If Ayton’s role is going to be limited moving forward, what’s the point of keeping him here at his salary? I’m leaning towards dealing him in the offseason for bench depth and/or draft picks.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Agree with most everything except this as I don't think he's improved so much as he's streaky as could be. He's either on or off. When he's off, he needs his minutes monitored because he'll do his best to shoot us out of games. He has no fear, which is nice, but I don't believe we'll see consistency from his this season. I hope we can keep him for cheap because he's young, talented, and could be a solid rotation player for years to come.

I can see this end of the debate too. I didn't LOVE him as the starter, his defense is really good. I do think this does get addressed next year with Ayton being shipped out. But for this year, we just don't have a great two way solution on this roster.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Ayton was largely invisible for most of the game, but it’s hard to ignore that when he went out with his fifth foul, the lead evaporated. Amidst everything, he is still the anchor of the defense and when he’s out, it can be a bit helter skelter.

It’s only five games into the KD era, but I don’t think Ayton and Monty are on the same page as to what his expectations are. Monty has gotten away from CP3/DA P&R that was lethal for a few games. I get that Book and KD are killing it, but that’s not going to last forever and the offense has to be more blended going forward.

I think the one pressing Issue with Ayton right now is that he has no clue how he wants to approach games. It’s obvious he wants to be more aggressive, but when the fouls mount up, I sense that he gets discouraged and gets into his own head. Monty has to help Ayton figure this out, but I don’t think this can be figured out at this point in the season.

If Ayton’s role is going to be limited moving forward, what’s the point of keeping him here at his salary? I’m leaning towards dealing him in the offseason for bench depth and/or draft picks.

I am going to be hopeful that a lot of James Jones bad decisions, were due to the vile frugal putrid person Robert Foamy Sarver notable Alumni of the University of Arizona. Banker and sexual harasser.

Moving forward, the cap is tight. So you have a mid level of six, that could keep JO if he wants to stay here. But obviously CP3 age isn't going to get better at 38-39, you need to leverage Ayton while he is 24 to 25, to find players that fit around your elite scorers. Someone is going to make a mistake with a point guard, they always do. You can find players that can anchor a defense as a big, like the big from Portland. The luxury the Suns have is they don't need those guys to score, just be a menace on the boards and defend the drop. That's why Brook Lopez is so effective in his role. They don't need him to score but he can he just does the dirty stuff.

It's too bad Bridges had to go in that trade. He is the perfect wing, we need to find a lighter version of him and I think the Suns are the best team in the NBA. The bench is going to rotate anyways, Except for Shamett's contract, which I think is around $10m per year through 2025-26.

 

[Mainstreet]

Apparently, our magic number is three to hold onto 4th place. So just have to go 3-3 the rest of the way. I don't think it will be an issue.

ETA: That included this one. So just need two more wins in the last 5.

It's good to know. I hadn't done the math. Except for San Antonio, the closing schedule will be tough. Of course, in the NBA, any team can win on a given night.

 

[Mainstreet]

Was at the game tonight. A few observations.
1. Turnovers - I thought KD and Book forced it to Biz, this is team chemistry. Biz is open but he has bad hands and is limited offensively. This is just testing to see what our players can do. Biz, is great defensively. He adds nothing to the offensive.

2. The University of Robert Sarver fans or graduates of The University of Robert Sarver Tucson are so sensitive with Ayton, this is called cognitive bias. No one hate Ayton as a person, but there is something to question about being a true professional at one's craft, he gets a pass for not being engaged, or you hate him or he will turn it on. Maybe, but he is a professional and doesn't act like one. Now I know the Foaminites will attack me, but a professional doesn't just engage when ever the **** they feel like it, they work on their craft. If a Sarver grad said he that's not fair he did x in 2021, that might be reasonable, but my expectation as a season ticket holder is that you act professional and don't pick and choose when to do your job, which pays you tens of millions of dollars per year.

Now we are not stupid, DA and most NBA players are just really dumb genetic freaks. Basketball in toto is not a thinking man's sport. I can't really blame a man who's IQ is equivalent of a horse.

3. Book started being sloppy, and it's so clear who much better KD is than Book. Book is our Walter Davis. He is great but limited. KD is on another level, I think he missed three shots and two of them were level 10 difficulty.

4. JO, I like him as the starter, he is getting better at the corner three and his defense is spectacular.

This team out together an amazing half, they are still working things out. Loser media were saying that KD's game earlier this week was the new normal, those people are dumb.

5. Let's let the Suns finish the season and we will have a decent understanding where the SUns stand. I have zero doubt there will be changes to build the roster around what we have now, KD and Book. Next year is probably more realistic for the chip.

I am going to be hopeful that a lot of James Jones bad decisions, were due to the vile frugal putrid person Robert Foamy Sarver notable Alumni of the University of Arizona. Banker and sexual harasser.

Moving forward, the cap is tight. So you have a mid level of six, that could keep JO if he wants to stay here. But obviously CP3 age isn't going to get better at 38-39, you need to leverage Ayton while he is 24 to 25, to find players that fit around your elite scorers. Someone is going to make a mistake with a point guard, they always do. You can find players that can anchor a defense as a big, like the big from Portland. The luxury the Suns have is they don't need those guys to score, just be a menace on the boards and defend the drop. That's why Brook Lopez is so effective in his role. They don't need him to score but he can he just does the dirty stuff.

It's too bad Bridges had to go in that trade. He is the perfect wing, we need to find a lighter version of him and I think the Suns are the best team in the NBA. The bench is going to rotate anyways, Except for Shamett's contract, which I think is around $10m per year through 2025-26.

I'm not sure why you are traveling back to revisit the Robert Sarver saga again and again unless you are blaming him for drafting Ayton.

In the 2018 draft Ayton was widely considered as the #1 pick. The Suns organization likely felt the same except for maybe Igor Kokoškov. Also, I understand Sarver was involved in the selection of Mikal Bridges. So if you are going to go there, look at the whole picture.

I doubt Sarver was holding James Jones back from trading Jae Crowder and IMO, the 2020 draft was a gross miscalculation but I won't get into all those details. Also, the reliance of Cam Payne as the backup point guard without contingencies is a mistake as well.

Also, Sarver was not involved in trading Mikal Bridges.

I'm not defending Robert Sarver but let's get it right.

 

[Mainstreet]

Ayton was largely invisible for most of the game, but it’s hard to ignore that when he went out with his fifth foul, the lead evaporated. Amidst everything, he is still the anchor of the defense and when he’s out, it can be a bit helter skelter.

It’s only five games into the KD era, but I don’t think Ayton and Monty are on the same page as to what his expectations are. Monty has gotten away from CP3/DA P&R that was lethal for a few games. I get that Book and KD are killing it, but that’s not going to last forever and the offense has to be more blended going forward.

I think the one pressing Issue with Ayton right now is that he has no clue how he wants to approach games. It’s obvious he wants to be more aggressive, but when the fouls mount up, I sense that he gets discouraged and gets into his own head. Monty has to help Ayton figure this out, but I don’t think this can be figured out at this point in the season.

If Ayton’s role is going to be limited moving forward, what’s the point of keeping him here at his salary? I’m leaning towards dealing him in the offseason for bench depth and/or draft picks.

Yeah, I don't think Ayton fully understands his role on the team.

I've often thought Monty asks too much of him. I'd rather simple it down and ask Ayton to focus more on defense and rebounding.

For the role Ayton plays on the Suns, I agree he may be traded if the right opportunity arises.

 

[GatorAZ]

How was that dagger 3 by Okogie not a foul on Gordon?
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[Mainstreet]

How was that dagger 3 by Okogie not a foul on Gordon?
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Yeah, it looked like a clear foul IMO.

 

[Superbone]

Because...Suns.

 

[TJ]

I'm not sure why you are traveling back to revisit the Robert Sarver saga again and again unless you are blaming him for drafting Ayton.

In the 2018 draft Ayton was widely considered as the #1 pick. The Suns organization likely felt the same except for maybe Igor Kokoškov. Also, I understand Sarver was involved in the selection of Mikal Bridges. So if you are going to go there, look at the whole picture.

I doubt Sarver was holding James Jones back from trading Jae Crowder and IMO, the 2020 draft was a gross miscalculation but I won't get into all those details. Also, the reliance of Cam Payne as the backup point guard without contingencies is a mistake as well.

Also, Sarver was not involved in trading Mikal Bridges.

I'm not defending Robert Sarver but let's get it right.

Sarver didnt make the call to pick Ayton. That was McD, who decided on him a week after getting the #1 pick.

BTW - I know Ayton isn’t the best player from that draft, but I cant see a situation in which a guy like Luka makes this team into a championship contender. Book likely doesn’t stay if Luka is selected and the only other stars that will willingly play with Luka are malcontents like Irving. While we’re positioning for playoff seeding, Dallas will be fortunate to make the play-in game.

 

[TJ]

How was that dagger 3 by Okogie not a foul on Gordon?
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Monty

 

[TJ]

Yeah, I don't think Ayton fully understands his role on the team.

I've often thought Monty asks too much of him. I'd rather simple it down and ask Ayton to focus more on defense and rebounding.

For the role Ayton plays on the Suns, I agree he may be traded if the right opportunity arises.

Therein lies the rub. Ayton wants more offensive touches and to work more around the perimeter. Monty doesn’t want that. When’s the last time Ayton shot a three? He makes them at about a 33% clip, which isn’t awful. There’s literally a mismatch in values between Ayton and the coaches/front office. Frankly, I have no clue why James Jones was aggressive in matching the RFA tender if neither party agrees with the role that Ayton should play.

 

[Mainstreet]

Sarver didnt make the call to pick Ayton. That was McD, who decided on him a week after getting the #1 pick.

There appeared to be agreement within the Suns organization to draft Deandre Ayton with the possible exception of Igor Kokoškov, but I think Sarver could have overridden the decision if he wanted too.

The reason I say this, is because it appears Ryan McDonough wanted to trade for the draft rights to Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, However, reportedly Robert Sarver and perhaps others wanted the Suns to draft Mikal Bridges. The trade for Bridges prevailed.

 

[Mainstreet]

Therein lies the rub. Ayton wants more offensive touches and to work more around the perimeter. Monty doesn’t want that. When’s the last time Ayton shot a three? He makes them at about a 33% clip, which isn’t awful. There’s literally a mismatch in values between Ayton and the coaches/front office. Frankly, I have no clue why James Jones was aggressive in matching the RFA tender if neither party agrees with the role that Ayton should play.

I think it was a situation where the Suns couldn't afford to lose a valuable asset like Ayton for nothing but they were willing to pay the lesser 4 year max.

However, we agree, Ayton is likely to be traded if Monty remains the head coach. The Suns can make do with lesser centers in their system.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Sarver didnt make the call to pick Ayton. That was McD, who decided on him a week after getting the #1 pick.

BTW - I know Ayton isn’t the best player from that draft, but I cant see a situation in which a guy like Luka makes this team into a championship contender. Book likely doesn’t stay if Luka is selected and the only other stars that will willingly play with Luka are malcontents like Irving. While we’re positioning for playoff seeding, Dallas will be fortunate to make the play-in game.

Are you saying you have a solid source on this subject? Personally I've yet to see anything concrete one way or the other.

IMO, with the benefit of hindsight, the best move we could have made was to trade that pick. Whether we could get a title with Luka is arguable but I'd have loved a lineup featuring Booker, Bridges and Luka. Well, loved is a little strong as the vomit factor of having to turn a blind eye to Luka's antics can't be overstated.

 

[TJ]

Are you saying you have a solid source on this subject? Personally I've yet to see anything concrete one way or the other.

IMO the best move we could have made was to trade that pick. Whether we could get a title with Luka is arguable but I'd have loved a lineup featuring Booker, Bridges and Luka. Well, loved is a little strong as the vomit factor of having to turn a blind eye to Luka's antics can't be overstated.

Someone close to the situation told me during that summer and Gambo corroborated it years later

 

[Hoop Head]

I thought McD said he wanted Luka? Didn't he say something that strongly suggested it and Sarver said Ayton.

 

[TJ]

I thought McD said he wanted Luka? Didn't he say something that strongly suggested it and Sarver said Ayton.

No. Igor wanted Luka.

 

[Hoop Head]

Quote about McD, Ayton, Luka, draft stuff.....

Former Phoenix Suns GM Ryan McDonough hints at Luka/Ayton decision

Many Phoenix Suns fans blame former GM Ryan McDonough for drafting Deandre Ayton over Luka Doncic in the 2018 draft. Recently, he talked about it.

valleyofthesuns.com

“I probably won’t get into all of it specifically. What I would say, it was somewhat of a tumultuous time in Phoenix, as the last decade has tended to be…it was an unstable environment.

“I think our process could have been better as far as Luka’s evaluation in particular. He was still playing in Spain in 2018 in the playoffs which made it difficult. I was not able to go see him play late that year in May and June. Had I gone and seen him play, he dominated the playoffs in the Euro-league Final Four. Would we have arrived at a different conclusion? Keep in mind I did not have ultimate autonomy to make basketball decisions there.”

 

[AzStevenCal]

I thought McD said he wanted Luka? Didn't he say something that strongly suggested it and Sarver said Ayton.

I know I heard that, I'm just not sure whether it was directly from McD or second hand. And if it was McD after he was fired, I'm not sure how much credibility I'd give it. I don't know anything about TJ's source but I certainly don't ever consider Gambo credible unless he makes it clear he got it directly from inside the organization. So I'm going to linger in Whoknowsville.

 

[TJ]

Quote about McD, Ayton, Luka, draft stuff.....

Former Phoenix Suns GM Ryan McDonough hints at Luka/Ayton decision

Many Phoenix Suns fans blame former GM Ryan McDonough for drafting Deandre Ayton over Luka Doncic in the 2018 draft. Recently, he talked about it.

valleyofthesuns.com

“I probably won’t get into all of it specifically. What I would say, it was somewhat of a tumultuous time in Phoenix, as the last decade has tended to be…it was an unstable environment.

“I think our process could have been better as far as Luka’s evaluation in particular. He was still playing in Spain in 2018 in the playoffs which made it difficult. I was not able to go see him play late that year in May and June. Had I gone and seen him play, he dominated the playoffs in the Euro-league Final Four. Would we have arrived at a different conclusion? Keep in mind I did not have ultimate autonomy to make basketball decisions there.”

He’s just saying that things might have gone differently had he evaluated Luka more, not that he wanted Luka. I could’ve chosen to invest in Apple early on had id done the right research. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Also, it’s Easy to say those things after he was terminated and playing the role of scorned former employee.

 

[TJ]

I know I heard that, I'm just not sure whether it was directly from McD or second hand. And if it was McD after he was fired, I'm not sure how much credibility I'd give it. I don't know anything about TJ's source but I certainly don't ever consider Gambo credible unless he makes it clear he got it directly from inside the organization. So I'm going to linger in Whoknowsville.

Gambo is a quack, but his Suns sources are solid. Plus, I trust my guy. I didn’t at first until Gambo said the same thing with the same timeline