# of posters!

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by nidan
So how do you know that what the players want right now is not

a) completely outrageous
b) Beyond what would allow us to sign all 3 within the Rokkie cap. Note: Agent only cares about his guy.
c) Is financialy plausible for the Cardinals given their cash flow situation (re:no stadium
d) The "bells & whistles" wanted will not break the bank next year.

From what I have read the agents are trying to avoid "setting the slot" as they don't want to be the one who got less. The agents seem to be more concerned about recruiting customers for next year rather than serving their customers for this year.

a) Can you say they aren't being reasonable and Graves is nickel and diming them?

b) The rookie cap gets circumvented with the bells and whistles which is how teams play with the accounting and the cap.

c) Revenue is a tired argument. Ummm, how about if Bidwill dip into his own pocket until we give him his new stadium...when he will have a ton in revenue streams?

d) I don't know enough about the cap for next year but if we are so far below this year, I have to believe we will be under next year too.

You asked and with an absense of solid info on the negotiations all it is by both of us is speculation. I answered your question based on what we know which isn't alot.

 

[SECTION 11]

There has been a lot of posters here today.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by nidan
So how do you know that what the players want right now is not

a) completely outrageous
b) Beyond what would allow us to sign all 3 within the Rokkie cap. Note: Agent only cares about his guy.
c) Is financialy plausible for the Cardinals given their cash flow situation (re:no stadium
d) The "bells & whistles" wanted will not break the bank next year.

From what I have read the agents are trying to avoid "setting the slot" as they don't want to be the one who got less. The agents seem to be more concerned about recruiting customers for next year rather than serving their customers for this year.

We don't know that of course. But, every team faces similar circumstances and many somehow get it done every year. And it is financially plausible for the Cards to pay these guys, they do every year. None of these deals this year, even with bells and whistles, will come close to Davis'.

I want to win games, getting draft picks into camp on time helps that IMO. There is no NFL trophy given out for "Most Sound Business Practice".

 

[nidan]

Ah but, I wasn't the one who said that "they could get it done" was I.

My point was that maybe RG wants to just get it done as well. If he hasn't yet them maybe there is a reason.

You said you could get it done by assuming that everything in the garden was rosy and that you had no financial constraints.

I'm suggesting the RG probably wants to get it done more the you or I do, so probably some of your rosy assumptions are not correct.

As for hoping/believing what our cap situation might be next year. It's fine if you guess we will be fine, unfortunatly RG will be on the hot seat next year if he screws up this year, whereas you will just say "Oh dear, I was wrong never mind" and start to rag on RG again for getting us into cap hell.

It is unlikely that many agents are being very reasonable this year given the rookie cap. The Jets just got taken and in doing so screwed the pooch for the teams following them (DT suspend for drugs, 1st round DT says oh you want me to sign do you ?).

As for other teams how often do people need to be reminded of the cash flow problems the Cards have in comparison to most other NFL teams. That's what the stadium is about folks.

 

[ajcardfan]

nidan,

"Cap hell" next year is the least of our worries. If you go and look at the salary cap page, you'll see that the team is actually going to clear millions more in cap space for next year. And, that is on top of the space we have right now. We're so far away from "cap hell" that not even a Jake Plummer-like contract would hurt us next year. He can't possibly eat up that cap space with rookie contracts. Even large second year bonuses would be spread out.

It's to the Cards credit that they have structured salaries in such way the last 3-4 years to create a good cap situation. Now that they have it, it's the least plausible in the list of excuses you gave to penny pinch on the first round contracts.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by nidan
Ah but, I wasn't the one who said that "they could get it done" was I.

My point was that maybe RG wants to just get it done as well. If he hasn't yet them maybe there is a reason.

You said you could get it done by assuming that everything in the garden was rosy and that you had no financial constraints.

I'm suggesting the RG probably wants to get it done more the you or I do, so probably some of your rosy assumptions are not correct.

As for hoping/believing what our cap situation might be next year. It's fine if you guess we will be fine, unfortunatly RG will be on the hot seat next year if he screws up this year, whereas you will just say "Oh dear, I was wrong never mind" and start to rag on RG again for getting us into cap hell.

It is unlikely that many agents are being very reasonable this year given the rookie cap. The Jets just got taken and in doing so screwed the pooch for the teams following them (DT suspend for drugs, 1st round DT says oh you want me to sign do you ?).

As for other teams how often do people need to be reminded of the cash flow problems the Cards have in comparison to most other NFL teams. That's what the stadium is about folks.

EDIT: No doubt Graves wants it done but when we hear "I want to get Boldin signed then concentrate on the 2 first rounders." (or something to that effect) then I have to question his motives but not desire in getting this taken care of. Too often, it seems everyone is banging heads over $500,000 of something and with all the space available, structure it and get them in camp.

The Bidwills are worth cash money they could use to get these guys in before their beautiful stadium is handed to them. I know nobody wants to admit they could do this but they can. Again, you act as if we should care the Jets "screwed the pooch" (I know that isn't a nidan original but I still love that saying) but it doesn't matter what the Jets did or didn't do. Graves needs to make things happen for the Cards. And if he screws other teams pooches in the process too bad so sad for them.

Listen, Graves can get this done and afford to overpay some to do it given the cap availability. The reason why the cap doesn;t mean much to me is it is not my job to manage it and when I said "outrageous demands" that falls under the cap management area. Graves should be flexible in giving them what they want while at the same time not destroying the teams future. Delicate balancing act? Yup but it can be done.

Again, I said he should be willing to do what it takes when I am not in charge of cap management because he knows alot more about than I but given what appears to me...the layman in this...alot of room to "wiggle" he should start his wiggling.

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by AndyO
I wish I had Rod Graves job! Actually having a say in how the Cards are run? Why I'd get those picks signed, and have nickel beer day at the home opener.

Nickle beers! YooooHoooo!!!!!

God could imagine the disaster that would cause. Cleveland Indians anyone?

 

[KingofCards]

The large number of poster got me excited the first time I checked in at work. Usually that means something has happened. Unfortunately, I quickly realized nothing had happened.

 

[nidan]

I never said they were penny pinching but I would also like to us to stay out of Cap jail.

I would appreciate the nickle beers though if somebody could figure out how to do it.

And occording to RG as of last thursday the Cards are open to more "wiggling" with the cap than in past years.

So unless RG is lying (which I think highly unlikely), it seems that the Cards are going to be more flexible than in past years. Don't forget though this is a really bad year for the rookie cap, a really bad year. It's the same bucket of cash as the last two years.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by AZCB34
Too often, it seems everyone is banging heads over $500,000 of something and with all the space available, structure it and get them in camp.

Listen, Graves can get this done and afford to overpay some to do it given the cap availability.

This is incorrect the available cap space has nothing to do with the rookies who have there own governed cap. The Cardinals cant go over that! That is why all the loopoles in the new rookie contracts that are circumventing all of that crap!

Thats why I have always sided with the organization in these matters because what was the point in making a rookie cap if your not going to follow its intent??? NFL Owners make me sick!

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't care if Graves really wants to get these guys in here - I care about him getting them in here. I'm sick of people defending Graves because he wants us to do well - that's great, but if you're shown to be incompetent, than I don't care what you want for this team because it don't mean squat. Now I'm not saying Graves is incompetent because training camp has not started yet and thus he still has time to get these guys in on time, but I can already see the seeds being planted for Graves' defense: TV stream, agents, greedy players, Cap problems(funny why don't the Jets, Packers, Chiefs, NE have problems with this new cap?). He's got time, a little, and he better use every second of it.

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
I don't care if Graves really wants to get these guys in here - I care about him getting them in here. I'm sick of people defending Graves because he wants us to do well - that's great, but if you're shown to be incompetent, than I don't care what you want for this team because it don't mean squat. Now I'm not saying Graves is incompetent because training camp has not started yet and thus he still has time to get these guys in on time, but I can already see the seeds being planted for Graves' defense: TV stream, agents, greedy players, Cap problems(funny why don't the Jets, Packers, Chiefs, NE have problems with this new cap?). He's got time, a little, and he better use every second of it.

Another seed being planted in his defense . . .

Fans letting him off the hook, and not holding him accountable for doing his job, which, by the way, includes getting his draft picks signed and in camp - period.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Shane H
This is incorrect the available cap space has nothing to do with the rookies who have there own governed cap. The Cardinals cant go over that! That is why all the loopoles in the new rookie contracts that are circumventing all of that crap!

Thats why I have always sided with the organization in these matters because what was the point in making a rookie cap if your not going to follow its intent??? NFL Owners make me sick!

That is what I have been saying. Use the bells and whistles. I agree with the Cards stance but they are the lone voice and thus they should use whatever tools are at their disposal. They can get the rookies in by structuring right and circumventing the thing.

Again, I have always agreed with the Cards stance in doing the "right" thing but it is time to accept the negotiations reality and do deals which get them past the rookie cap.

 

[ajcardfan]

Originally posted by AZCB34
That is what I have been saying. Use the bells and whistles. I agree with the Cards stance but they are the lone voice and thus they should use whatever tools are at their disposal. They can get the rookies in by structuring right and circumventing the thing.

Again, I have always agreed with the Cards stance in doing the "right" thing but it is time to accept the negotiations reality and do deals which get them past the rookie cap.

I hear you, AZCB34. It is the "right" thing to not overpay rookies, but it's "wrong" to give most of your opponents a competitive advantage over something that is not illegal. It's tough enough to get a championship without giving every other team a head start.

 

[AndyO]

It's obvious that no one here wants Graves to fail at his job. That is not the point. But to make excuses as to why he can't perform his duties is giving him an out that should not be there. He took the position knowing the constraints the organization has put upon the past GM's. I'm sorry , thats not a legit excuse for not getting this set pf picks signed and ready for camp. It's an endemic part of how things work around here, and its high time that it stopped. Whether it's Graves or the Bidwill's , whomever it is, its time this organization started recognizing that they hamstring the club every season when they fail to perform the tasks that other clubs seem to perform out of hand.

Not getting the picks signed and playing at the start of camp will lead to the inevitable: They get injured, fall hopelessly behind in learning the system, and the first year ends up being a total washout. This scenario has to stop.

Now, back to nickel beer day. Don't know how'd they work it out, and it would be a godawful mess. But it sure would fill the house. And save me quite a bit of $$.

 

[Rivercard]

Originally posted by AndyO
Now, back to nickel beer day. Don't know how'd they work it out, and it would be a godawful mess. But it sure would fill the house. And save me quite a bit of $$.

I have a plan for Nickle beer day. it is structured like a two tiered contract. We pay a nickle at the game for a beer and then we owe another nickle payable the next year. Really makes it a dime beer with $$'s defered to next year's beer income for the club.

 

[AndyO]

Someone call Rod Graves! It can be done!

 

[red desert]

Originally posted by AndyO
It's obvious that no one here wants Graves to fail at his job. That is not the point. But to make excuses as to why he can't perform his duties is giving him an out that should not be there. He took the position knowing the constraints the organization has put upon the past GM's. I'm sorry , thats not a legit excuse for not getting this set pf picks signed and ready for camp. It's an endemic part of how things work around here, and its high time that it stopped. Whether it's Graves or the Bidwill's , whomever it is, its time this organization started recognizing that they hamstring the club every season when they fail to perform the tasks that other clubs seem to perform out of hand.

Not getting the picks signed and playing at the start of camp will lead to the inevitable: They get injured, fall hopelessly behind in learning the system, and the first year ends up being a total washout. This scenario has to stop.

Now, back to nickel beer day. Don't know how'd they work it out, and it would be a godawful mess. But it sure would fill the house. And save me quite a bit of $$.

Exactly.

And when not getting them in on time leads to a wasted first year - sure soesn't sound like a wise use of one's money. And when that occurs year after year after friggin' year, well, that is just bordering on the ridiculous.

 

[red desert]

Oh, and bout the beer . . . are we talking 16 oz cups, 20 oz cups, what?

 

[AZCB34]

With the exception of nickel beers (I would prefer nickel vodkas personally), this thread points us in an interesting direction. Thus I have a question (and I am going to start a different thread that runs parallel with this.

Question: Does a first round holdout increase the likelihood of being considered a bust player? Or is it simply a 50/50 proposition?

It would be an interesting study in first round holdouts and whether they end up being considered busts or not.

 

[Angel]

Nickel beer will probably have to wait until our home opener in the new stadium.

For Sun Devil to sell 5 cent beer would require the cooperation of ASU and probably its athletic department and I don't think they have been feeling any love for the Cards lately.

But it sure would be an interesting way to open "Whatever They Are Going to Call It" Stadium in 2006.