Offense Unprepared?

[Russ Smith]

That they could run it better still has nothing to do with whether the no huddle fatigues players faster than a regular offense.

I don't see how that matters, NE runs it regularly and PRACTICES it regularly, their players go into games knowing they're going to do it and they're conditioned to do it. The announcers told us during the game that they were not told it was in the Cards gameplan and IIRC the sideline reporter even said it wasn't, they just tried it to change things up and it worked so they did it some more.

So the Cards players aren't practicing the no huddle much, and they're not preparing in practice for the demands it puts on a team.

I think it's pretty obvious that a team that practices it regularly is going to have less fatigue issues than a team that doesn't.

The other problem nobody brought up but I point out everytime people talk up the no huddle is there's also a reason that no huddle teams tend to have defensive issues, especially later in games. Because no huddle teams have shorter possessions in minutes, which means less rest between series for the defense.

Buffalo under Jim Kelly was notorious for that, Levy said it repeatedly I love what it does for our offense, I hate what it does to our defense, guys wear down. It happened to our defense IMHO when Warner was doing it but he was just SO good at it we had to do it, to not do would have been insane.

As the guys get more familiar with each other I won't be surprised to see more of it. One of the advantages we have is like NE, we have a few good TE's this year, so we can stay in a 2 TE set and are a threat to both pass or run from it. That makes it harder on the defense when they can't sub.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't see how that matters,

Because that's all Cbus and I were talking about. Does the no huddle fatigue an offense more than a regular scheme?

Let's see if we can't simplify this a little.

Do the Patriots offensive players get more fatigued when they run the no huddle than when they run a standard from the huddle offense?

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't see how that matters,

Because that's what Cbus and I were talking about.

You seemed to be saying that because NE does it, that means it doesn't really fatigue offenses. I'm saying NE is not exactly the norm, been together for years, use it regularly, practice it regularly. Just because they do it well doesn't mean everyone else can to, even if they don't practice for it. NE is an outlier, using them is like talking about the friend we all have that eats like crazy and never gains a pound, it doesn't mean it'll work for the rest of us.

And if you haven't noticed as NE started to do it, their defense has gotten worse year over year.

 

[conraddobler]

Mizzou runs a true no huddle, and so does OU, and watching those two play it was comical.

By no huddle I mean, ball is set snap the ball fast, in fact I think the Ref who sets the ball down had leather burns on his hand fast.

Towards the end of the game everyone is exhausted, the defense does get worn down cause they don't even have time to sit down on the bench and they're back out there again, the offense just starts trotting to positions and worse, trotting during plays, it's too fast.

It's pretty smart for a team like OU, the deeper the team the more you should do this, if the other teams starters are better than yours but their backups suck compared to you, this is the exact offense I'd run, just exhaust their starters and use your depth to pound them into dust.

Hockey does this with quick line changes it's a portion of the game that few people play around with but if you want to leverage team depth on offense or defense then go to a no huddle, if you have no depth it's pretty much suicide and a pure gimick.

 

[Duckjake]

You seemed to be saying that because NE does it, that means it doesn't really fatigue offenses. I'm saying NE is not exactly the norm, been together for years, use it regularly, practice it regularly. Just because they do it well doesn't mean everyone else can to, even if they don't practice for it. NE is an outlier, using them is like talking about the friend we all have that eats like crazy and never gains a pound, it doesn't mean it'll work for the rest of us.

And if you haven't noticed as NE started to do it, their defense has gotten worse year over year.

I have no idea where you are getting any of this. It is so far off from the topic and what I actually wrote as to be unbelievable that you could come up with it.

So I'll ask again. If the best offense in the world runs a no huddle do their players get more fatigued than when they run a huddle based offense? Or the worst offense. Or a mediocre offense.

It's really a simple question.

 

[Duckjake]

Mizzou runs a true no huddle, and so does OU, and watching those two play it was comical.

By no huddle I mean, ball is set snap the ball fast, in fact I think the Ref who sets the ball down had leather burns on his hand fast.

Towards the end of the game everyone is exhausted, the defense does get worn down cause they don't even have time to sit down on the bench and they're back out there again, the offense just starts trotting to positions and worse, trotting during plays, it's too fast.

It's pretty smart for a team like OU, the deeper the team the more you should do this, if the other teams starters are better than yours but their backups suck compared to you, this is the exact offense I'd run, just exhaust their starters and use your depth to pound them into dust.

Hockey does this with quick line changes it's a portion of the game that few people play around with but if you want to leverage team depth on offense or defense then go to a no huddle, if you have no depth it's pretty much suicide and a pure gimick.

Thanks for actually understanding what we're talking about. Good answer as well.

 

[Mitch]

I should add Mitch, I love your enthusiasm, I always have, but you have gotta step back and look at the reality here once in a while. You spent 2-3 weeks complaining Chester Taylor should be picked up, should be playing in passing downs etc. Now you are complaining Smith should get all the carries and start, because Taylor clearly doesn't have it anymore. Maybe that's why they weren't playing him the first 2 games when you were complaining he should be on the field some? Whiz et al don't get the benefit of saying "my bad", when they make a decision and it backfires the whole board attacks it, quite frankly I haven't seen a thing yet to justify signing Taylor, he sure looks done and Smith is apparently a better pass blocker too so if anything signing Taylor probably hurt Smith's development.

Part of the problem with Fitz has always been he doesn't get separation, he's a great WR, unreal in the air, but he doesn't get wide open on speed or quickness, he just goes and gets the ball in a crowd, like on the amazing TD catch. So yes it's frustrating that doubling him took him away but they did that in the first half too, look at how many of his catches were against 2 guys. Seattle adjusted, and because Keith was having so much trouble blocking clemons it killed the timing on plays, when the ball should be coming out, Kolb was moving to avoid pressure. Its not just Carroll is smarter than Whiz it's that Whiz knows on every play there are multiple guys in the pattern and if Seattle is doing what they did, other guys have to get open.

Seattle was doing the same thing in the first half it just didn't work as well, some of that was the no huddle. The change I saw from Seattle in the 2nd half was they defended Heap differently which took away Kolb's 2nd weapon as well. Seattle just figured key on Wade and LeBron and make the others beat us and they didn't. Some of that is on Kolb too, he has to look for other guys can't lock in on just those 2. ALmost half his attempts were to those 2 guys, that's a bit too easy to figure out, both his picks were forced into coverage to those 2 guys.

Carroll isn't a genius, he just said I'm going to make you beat with someone else and the Cards didn't do it. Whether that's on Roberts and Doucet, or on Kolb I don't know. I say that because like most here when I'm watching on TV I can only see what FOX shows me and they weren't showing me if Roberts and Doucet were open or not.

Yes we want Fitz to get the ball more but when teams do what Seattle did, we have to exploit that with other guys, like we did against Carolina.

Russ---please when criticizing my points, please get your facts right. I said repeatedly I wanted Brian Westbrook---what i complained about was once the Cardinals signed Taylor they couldn't get him ready to at least play in a handful of plays the first week. That bothered me. When Seattle got Marshawn Lynch last year, he was starting in his first week...not that I ever want Taylor to start, I have been saying all along that he's not even a #2 RB---he's a #3 at best--which we already have in LSH.

I liked what I saw from Alfonso Smith in pre-season and liked him even more on Sunday. That you can quote as fact. Smith has hit the hole faster than any Cardinal RB this year---and he's much tougher between the tackles than I would have thought. Loved his 4th down conversion, for example.

You missed my point about Fitz---when you jam and bracket him, of course he doesn't get much separation...which is why you motion him or you line him up in the backfield or stack him in trips. You don't concede you can't get him open and allow the other team to take him away for an entire half.

Are you watching the games or listening to them on the radio? The REALITY you speak of is easier to see when you actually watch the games.

 

[Russ Smith]

I have no idea where you are getting any of this. It is so far off from the topic and what I actually wrote as to be unbelievable that you could come up with it.

So I'll ask again. If the best offense in the world runs a no huddle do their players get more fatigued than when they run a huddle based offense? Or the worst offense. Or a mediocre offense.

It's really a simple question.

One page back.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cbus cardsfan
"You can't run the no huddle all the time. It's not college where you have 85 man rosters and tons of OL. I still think Levi came out more because he was tired than hurt. Missed assignments coupled with a tired OL can get the QB killed. I don't disagree that it should be used more but if it really wasn't in the gameplan, therefore not practiced as much, I can see the reluctance to use it. I think we'll see it more this week againg NY. "

Originally Posted by Duckjake

"I thought the Patriots ran it regularly. Other teams as well. Isn't that what all the commotion was about concerning fake injuries trying to slow down the no huddle?"


Cbus said you can't run it all the time because people get exhausted and you replied don't the Patriots run it regularly.

My comment was simple using NE as a counter to what CBUS said is misleading because they're the outlier in all this, there isn't another team in the league that uses it that much and that effectively. the NFL is a copycat league but there's a reason teams aren't copying NE, most of them simply can't, at least not effectively.

 

[Russ Smith]

I have no idea where you are getting any of this. It is so far off from the topic and what I actually wrote as to be unbelievable that you could come up with it.

So I'll ask again. If the best offense in the world runs a no huddle do their players get more fatigued than when they run a huddle based offense? Or the worst offense. Or a mediocre offense.

It's really a simple question.

Yes they do get more tired, which was precisely what Cbus originally said and you replied but NE does it.

 

[Duckjake]

One page back.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cbus cardsfan
"You can't run the no huddle all the time. It's not college where you have 85 man rosters and tons of OL. I still think Levi came out more because he was tired than hurt. Missed assignments coupled with a tired OL can get the QB killed. I don't disagree that it should be used more but if it really wasn't in the gameplan, therefore not practiced as much, I can see the reluctance to use it. I think we'll see it more this week againg NY. "

Originally Posted by Duckjake

"I thought the Patriots ran it regularly. Other teams as well. Isn't that what all the commotion was about concerning fake injuries trying to slow down the no huddle?"


Cbus said you can't run it all the time because people get exhausted and you replied don't the Patriots run it regularly.

My comment was simple using NE as a counter to what CBUS said is misleading because they're the outlier in all this, there isn't another team in the league that uses it that much and that effectively. the NFL is a copycat league but there's a reason teams aren't copying NE, most of them simply can't, at least not effectively.

Why did you chose to just ignore this? You take things off on a tangent like no other poster on ASFN.

How about I post then you edit it for me to what you think I meant?

It would save us a lot of time.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ---please when criticizing my points, please get your facts right. I said repeatedly I wanted Brian Westbrook---what i complained about was once the Cardinals signed Taylor they couldn't get him ready to at least play in a handful of plays the first week. That bothered me. When Seattle got Marshawn Lynch last year, he was starting in his first week...not that I ever want Taylor to start, I have been saying all along that he's not even a #2 RB---he's a #3 at best--which we already have in LSH.

I liked what I saw from Alfonso Smith in pre-season and liked him even more on Sunday. That you can quote as fact. Smith has hit the hole faster than any Cardinal RB this year---and he's much tougher between the tackles than I would have thought. Loved his 4th down conversion, for example.

You missed my point about Fitz---when you jam and bracket him, of course he doesn't get much separation...which is why you motion him or you line him up in the backfield or stack him in trips. You don't concede you can't get him open and allow the other team to take him away for an entire half.

Are you watching the games or listening to them on the radio? The REALITY you speak of is easier to see when you actually watch the games.

Mitch you had a post of players the Cards should pickup for help and you had Taylor on the list. You repeated in another thread the Cards should pick up taylor. Then after we picked him up you complained we didn't use him. now we use him, he looks finished, and you complained we used him too much. That was my point, you are giving yourself what you don't give Whiz, grace when reality shows your original thought wasn't correct.

You posted this Aug 23rd on Taylor "While Chester Taylor (5-11, 213, 10, Toledo) is getting on in years, there's still some solid tread on his tires. He excels in the red zone as a runner and receiver and that's why I think he would be the right fit. I like keeping Alphonso Smith too, s a red zone specialist like Taylor would be great."



Smith is a decent RB but he's not an NFL starter and that was shown when he couldn't even come close on the other short yardage runs. yes they weren't blocked well but sometimes in the NFL you gotta get the yard anyways, we've seen Beanie do it, Lynch did it for Seattle. Smith is simply too small to do it, we just didn't have a better option. I think he has value, I don't think he should start IF Beanie is ready to go.

On Fitz my point was they defended him the same way in the first half and he was effective, they just covered him BETTER in the 2nd half. And they took away Heap which should have opened up other guys but somehow didn't seem to. I think a big reason why Fitz was less effective is that Clemons was wearing out Keith and that made Kolb have to keep coming off his primary target to roll to his left.

I watch the games on the internet with a device that allows me to take the feed off my computer and put it on my tv(converts the output that would normally go to your computer monitor into multiple outputs including RCA which I can plug in to the tv) in the room where the computer is. So I'm watching it on a 27 inch tv. I will often also have the radio on because the internet feed is usually delayed, sometimes as much as 2 plays behind.

But I can be watching games on a 34 inch tv in the living room and I still can only see what FOX et al show me. Which is why I said I don't know if Roberts or Doucet were open or not, because FOX wasn't showing us that.

The point is when a team schemes to take Fitz away the most logical way to defeat that is to get the other guys open and make them pay. You don't ignore him of course not but I felt that kolb was too focussed on Fitz in the 2nd half I think he probably missed other guys open because he was locked in on Fitz and then Heap. Either that or the other guys are not very good being single covered the whole 2nd half and not doing much. And again I think the play of Clemons also completely discombobulated the passing offense because Kolb was constantly having to move.

I don't think that was the offense wasn't ready, it was just that Keith got his butt handed to him by Clemons.

 

[Russ Smith]

Why did you chose to just ignore this? You take things off on a tangent like no other poster on ASFN.

How about I post then you edit it for me to what you think I meant?

It would save us a lot of time.

What other teams are running the no huddle as much as NE? the Rams did it some in that game where the Giants were faking. I haven't seen anybody else use it anywhere near as much as NE does.

I'm assuming the reason you said other teams is the only one that came to mind initially was NE. That was my point, NE is unique.

I do happen to agree that eventually the no huddle could be useful for us because like NE we have a couple of TE's that have shown they can be effective enough to allow you to play 2 TE's in your base no huddle. That's what makes NE so special, teams have to account for the 2 TE's in their run package and then it puts them in trouble covering them in the passing game because in a no huddle, they can't sub.

But both our TE's are new, our QB is new, so just because it was workign doesn't mean it would have continued the whole game. And as CBUS said Brown was already tired, the sideline guy on radio said Brown was out because he was gassed. Yes NE can do it but it's part of their base offense, they practice for it and their players are used to it, ours aren't.

I just cut and pasted your post, if that's a tangent then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Duckjake]

What other teams are running the no huddle as much as NE? the Rams did it some in that game where the Giants were faking. I haven't seen anybody else use it anywhere near as much as NE does.

I'm assuming the reason you said other teams is the only one that came to mind initially was NE. That was my point, NE is unique.

I do happen to agree that eventually the no huddle could be useful for us because like NE we have a couple of TE's that have shown they can be effective enough to allow you to play 2 TE's in your base no huddle. That's what makes NE so special, teams have to account for the 2 TE's in their run package and then it puts them in trouble covering them in the passing game because in a no huddle, they can't sub.

But both our TE's are new, our QB is new, so just because it was workign doesn't mean it would have continued the whole game. And as CBUS said Brown was already tired, the sideline guy on radio said Brown was out because he was gassed. Yes NE can do it but it's part of their base offense, they practice for it and their players are used to it, ours aren't.

I just cut and pasted your post, if that's a tangent then I don't know what to tell you.

Here is your tangent. I was wondering that if the no huddle wore out teams why teams such as the Patriots AND others were running it. That is why there is a ? at the end of my post. The Patriots came up because as best I recall they were the team that the fake injuries were used against. No other reason.

You misinterpreted it to say. Well Cbus you are wrong. If the no huddle wore out offenses the Patriots wouldn't be doing it.

You seemed to be saying that because NE does it, that means it doesn't really fatigue offenses.

Simple enough for you?

 

[Russ Smith]

Here is your tangent. I was wondering that if the no huddle wore out teams why teams such as the Patriots AND others were running it. The Patriots came up because as best I recall they were the team that the fake injuries were used against. No other reason.

You misinterpreted it to say. Well Cbus you are wrong. If the no huddle wore out offenses the Patriots wouldn't be doing it.

Simple enough for you? No probably not. You'll misinterpret this as well.

It was the rams where the fake injuries got so much attention. the Rams are not a no huddle team they just did it and it worked so they stuck with it for awhile, similar to what we did against Seattle in the first half.

Most teams don't prepare for that and again, the radio sideline guy said flat out Levi Brown sat not out due to injury or performance, but because he was exhausted in the no huddle.

I would be surprised if that wasn't the main reason Whiz didn't go back to it, he knew his OT's can't do it for very long. The reason more teams don't do it is because their players, on both sides of the ball, get too tired.

I would say a big reason NE's defense is not as good is because they run the no huddle so much now.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It was the rams where the fake injuries got so much attention. the Rams are not a no huddle team they just did it and it worked so they stuck with it for awhile, similar to what we did against Seattle in the first half.

Most teams don't prepare for that and again, the radio sideline guy said flat out Levi Brown sat not out due to injury or performance, but because he was exhausted in the no huddle.

I would be surprised if that wasn't the main reason Whiz didn't go back to it, he knew his OT's can't do it for very long. The reason more teams don't do it is because their players, on both sides of the ball, get too tired.

I would say a big reason NE's defense is not as good is because they run the no huddle so much now.

I KNEW he wasn't hurt. You could see either Sendlein or Colledge yelling at him to get up.

 

[Duckjake]

I KNEW he wasn't hurt. You could see either Sendlein or Colledge yelling at him to get up.

And Lutui is on the bench and Dan Williams playing time is limited because THEY are out of shape?

The Cards are a strange football team.

 

[Russ Smith]

And Lutui is on the bench and Dan Williams playing time is limited because THEY are out of shape?

The Cards are a strange football team.

Yep. Whiz is trying to send a message to those guys and he appears to be more concerned about their weight than their performance.

I guess I'm fine with expecting players to be in shape but at some point it becomes counter productive to sit your better players because they're fat.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Most teams don't prepare for that and again, the radio sideline guy said flat out Levi Brown sat not out due to injury or performance, but because he was exhausted in the no huddle.

good lord.

 

[Russ Smith]

good lord.

I think it was Calvisi. The radio is usually a play or two ahead of the internet feed so I had the radio on in the first half. Finally got tired of the confusion of radio being ahead, and the game thread being ahead, so I turned off the radio and stopped reading the game thread.

 

[Duckjake]

Yep. Whiz is trying to send a message to those guys and he appears to be more concerned about their weight than their performance.

I guess I'm fine with expecting players to be in shape but at some point it becomes counter productive to sit your better players because they're fat.

You missed the point I think. Brown is so out of shape he's lying on the ground faking an injury while the Cards are running the no huddle? But he starts every game?

Meanwhile other guys are on the bench while lesser skilled players start because the former are out of shape.

There seems to be a different standard for different players.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You missed the point I think. Brown is so out of shape he's lying on the ground faking an injury while the Cards are running the no huddle? But he starts every game?

Meanwhile other guys are on the bench while lesser skilled players start because the former are out of shape.

There seems to be a different standard for different players.

only the Cardinals can be inept enough to have one of their OWN players fake injury to stop their own no-huddle offense. seriously... you couldn't write this stuff if you tried.

 

[Cards_Campos]

Please stop. You have to get first downs in order to start the no huddle offense and the Cardinals didn't get one in the entire third quarter I think. We kept getting stopped on 3rd and 1, which never let us speed up the tempo of the game. A lack of offensive execution is more responsible for our limited usage of the no huddle than terrible coaching.

Not even close....Obviously we were gaining yards BEFORE 3rd to only have 1 yard to go. Why not after 2nd down..run hurry up...Seattle is on their heels and we have them right where we need them. No we run the same 4 plays and run the same sets when we need 1 yard. Why...because Whiz is stubborn.

No Huddle was the ONLY way to go...

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

only the Cardinals can be inept enough to have one of their OWN players fake injury to stop their own no-huddle offense. seriously... you couldn't write this stuff if you tried.

LOL! at least the cards can provide you with plenty of material.

 

[Chopper0080]

Not even close....Obviously we were gaining yards BEFORE 3rd to only have 1 yard to go. Why not after 2nd down..run hurry up...Seattle is on their heels and we have them right where we need them. No we run the same 4 plays and run the same sets when we need 1 yard. Why...because Whiz is stubborn.

No Huddle was the ONLY way to go...

Because you would be running your hurry up with your base offensive package, in our case using 2 TEs or 1 TE and a FB. The goal of the no huddle to is to catch the defense unprepared with your spread offensive personnel on the field. This allows you to run the ball against a smaller front 7, as well as allow your QB to determine 1 on 1 matchups with the defense spread out in front of him. The other goal is to prevent defensive substitutions which gives your larger offensive line both the size advantage against the nickel front 4, but as those rushers tire, they make it easier for the o line to pass block.

Please keep in mind that going no huddle extremely limits your play calling, and increases the pressure on your individual players. WR's HAVE to see EXACTLY what the QB is seeing and the offensive line can't miss protection packages. If either of these things are not perfect, balls get dropped or penalties occur which allows the defense to substitute.

 

[Chopper0080]

here an excerpt from an article Pat Kirwan wrote for NFL.com about the no huddle:

Here are five things I like about the no-huddle offense:
1. It lets the quarterback identify the defense.
2. It can wear out a pass rush that has to get in their stance early.
3. It can reduce what a team's defense can have on its call sheet.
4. It is excellent preparation for two-minute drills.
5. It puts the game more in the hands of the quarterback.
Here are five negative aspects of the no-huddle offense:
1. Teams can't use the quick count without a play called before the players line up.
2. Offensive players, especially receivers, can get fatigued.
3. Inexperienced players can't get the help veterans provide in the huddle with assignments.
4. It's tough on the road, where crowd noise is a big factor.
5. It can be a reduced package for the offense, making quarterback calls easier to identify for the defense.

Really good points