Official Stay the Course Thread

[Mainstreet]

If this is true then there is absolutely no hope for this franchise with these clowns at the helm.
F_o_r_g_e_t about the pick. What's done is done. Look at what you've got, decide where to go and make it happen.

I have been hoping upon hope that Sarver/ Kerr would get it right. Nothing they have done individually or together has impressed me. Forget about the Suns trading away or selling away 5 first round draft picks. Look at who they have drafted in the first round (and kept), Tucker and Lopez. The Suns even sold second round selection Marcin Gortat.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Thoughts on "Stay the course"

1. Shaq will never again have as high trade value as he does at this moment. He can provide a huge help for a team needing to get over the hump, and his deal expires soon. It is an ideal time to pick up picks or promising young players along with marginal expiring contracts. The Suns should trade Shaq for the best deal they can get now.

2. Forget about not having next year's pick. The Suns are rebuilding, there is no way around that idea. It was a stupid mistake to trade that pick without protection, but trying to make that previous deal look better (by trying to get more wins in the short term) at the expense of the long range rebuilding plan is a big mistake too.

No one is trading anything of note for Shaq. The best you can hope for is salary relief, which you would get if you were patient.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

No one is trading anything of note for Shaq. The best you can hope for is salary relief, which you would get if you were patient.

They could pick up an unproven prospect with a high upside (the Suns have none of these, nor proven ones) for Shaq.

Waiting for the 2010 class and cap room is foolish. Everyone in the league has cap space that offseason and most are better situations that the Suns can possibly hope to offer.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

They could pick up an unproven prospect with a high upside (the Suns have none of these, nor proven ones) for Shaq.

Waiting for the 2010 class and cap room is foolish. Everyone in the league has cap space that offseason and most are better situations that the Suns can possibly hope to offer.

Can you explain how that is possible? The Suns will need to take back at least 16 million in salary just to trade Shaq. This is why he was thought to be untradable back when he was with Miami.

Any Shaq trade is going to include bad salary back for marginal talent. Cap space is worth more than unproven prospects and in this draft they are unproven prospects with MARGINAL upside.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Can you explain how that is possible? The Suns will need to take back at least 16 million in salary just to trade Shaq. This is why he was thought to be untradable back when he was with Miami.

Any Shaq trade is going to include bad salary back for marginal talent. Cap space is worth more than unproven prospects and in this draft they are unproven prospects with MARGINAL upside.

Pretty simple. You package a prospect with a bad contract that like Shaq's expires at the end of the year. It almost happened a few months ago with the Sczerbiak/Hickson deal with Cleveland. Happens all the time.

Then the Suns get the same much-needed cap space as if they kept Shaq and a prospect with potential.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Hickson was never in the deal. The deal was Sczerbiak (who expired) and Ben Wallace, who will expire this year.

The currect Cleveland deal is Ben Wallace who retires with a buyout and a non guaranteed contract who will be waived. No picks, no extra anything. Just cap relief this season...

No one is giving young talent for an old center that is a one year rental and will likely catapult your team into the luxury tax.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

My thought is that even if the Suns can't attract the big free agents, being waaay under the salary cap in 2010 during the free agency bonanza can make them facilitators for trades. Basically they will then be able to pick from players to help make trades happen and then get picks in a much stronger draft.

Basically reversing how the whole Kurt Thomas deal happened.

If we want to rebuild the right way, the only way it will happen is getting under the cap and not taking on anymore contracts where the salary outweighs the usefulness of the player.

Portland has really shown the right way to rebuild.

 

[TJ]

I like this thread instead of the "Trade X or Trade Y" threads. People fail to realize that we have four former all-stars, one potential all-star and a former 6th man of the year. Also, this team has some depth and we finally have a coach willing to go nine or 10 deep. The problem is getting the group to play together. IMO, if you told me that my starting line up would consist of Shaq, Stat, Hill (if re-signed), Richardson, and Nash, I'd say "where do I sign?"

On the other hand, if our inept management trades one of the core pieces of this team, then they might as well blow the damn thing up and focus on the future. I would hate for this to happen because I don't personally care about the economics of the team, but rather the quality of the product. I'm merely a life-time customer.

 

[Ronin]

Ric Bucher was just on Mike and Mike in the morning, and Bucher said " it is very likely that Shaq will be moved thursday night."



Semi-off topic, but i didn't want to create another thread about this

 

[HooverDam]

Ric Bucher was just on Mike and Mike in the morning, and Bucher said " it is very likely that Shaq will be moved thursday night."



Semi-off topic, but i didn't want to create another thread about this

Thats great news.

 

[Ronin]

Thats great news.

I hope it happens.
Here's more:

Three reasons we've experienced a hush -- temporary hush, that is -- of Shaquille O'Neal-to-Cleveland talk:
1. The Suns and Cavs, sources say, were trying hard last week to recruit a third team to help facilitate the deal, presumably to help furnish Phoenix with more than just the financial relief that would come with the acquisitions of Ben Wallace and Sasha Pavlovic. No willing third team offering up a serviceable big man whom Phoenix likes has been located. Yet.

2. It thus benefits Cleveland to shop around to see what else might be available, because the list of teams willing to take on Shaq's $21 million salary next season is a very short one at the minute.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=TradeChatter-090624

 

[HooverDam]

Bah I cant imagine theyre going to find a serviceable big man out there from a 3rd team, just ask for Hickson and Clevelands 2011 and be done with it.

 

[Covert Rain]

Again, this all depends on what the Suns are doing. Are they rebuilding? If yes, then just take the cap relief. If this team is trying retool again, you cannot make this trade. Wallace and Sasha are worthless and don't help a retooling team. The trade would be too lopsided for Cleveland. Obviously, the Suns think so as well or they would not be searching for a 3rd team at this point.

I just have no clue what the hell this front office is doing at the moment

 

[Sunburn]

Hickson was never in the deal. The deal was Sczerbiak (who expired) and Ben Wallace, who will expire this year.

The currect Cleveland deal is Ben Wallace who retires with a buyout and a non guaranteed contract who will be waived. No picks, no extra anything. Just cap relief this season...

No one is giving young talent for an old center that is a one year rental and will likely catapult your team into the luxury tax.

I dont know why people continue to consider Shaq just a measly "one year rental". If he plays with Lebron and it's a success, he resigns no doubt. Shaq wants championships and winning to add to his legacy, make no mistake about it. If it doesn't work out in Cleveland, the Cavs can go another direction. It's a fantastic move for C land.

 

[Rab]

Hickson was never in the deal. The deal was Sczerbiak (who expired) and Ben Wallace, who will expire this year.

The currect Cleveland deal is Ben Wallace who retires with a buyout and a non guaranteed contract who will be waived. No picks, no extra anything. Just cap relief this season...

No one is giving young talent for an old center that is a one year rental and will likely catapult your team into the luxury tax.

+1

Trading Shaq is purely a salary dump. Sure the Suns would like a player like a Hickson to take back, but they really don't have the leverage to ask for that. At this point, I'm sure most teams know the Suns would care more about saving the money.

I think we benefit more from letting the deals expire as well, but it's whether or not the FO will be patient enough let it happen.

 

[Rab]

My thought is that even if the Suns can't attract the big free agents, being waaay under the salary cap in 2010 during the free agency bonanza can make them facilitators for trades. Basically they will then be able to pick from players to help make trades happen and then get picks in a much stronger draft.

Basically reversing how the whole Kurt Thomas deal happened.

If we want to rebuild the right way, the only way it will happen is getting under the cap and not taking on anymore contracts where the salary outweighs the usefulness of the player.

Portland has really shown the right way to rebuild.

Again...+1

Excellent point, and one that I completely overlooked.

 

[HooverDam]

Trading Shaq is purely a salary dump. Sure the Suns would like a player like a Hickson to take back, but they really don't have the leverage to ask for that. At this point, I'm sure most teams know the Suns would care more about saving the money.

"Hey Cleveland your local superstar has hinted repeatedly that he'll bolt for NY soon if you don't give him some help thus permanently throwing your franchise back into the toilet, so how about you give us a 3rd string PF for this 19/8 Center, Ok?"

Yah the Suns have no leverage at all.

 

[JCSunsfan]

"Hey Cleveland your local superstar has hinted repeatedly that he'll bolt for NY soon if you don't give him some help thus permanently throwing your franchise back into the toilet, so how about you give us a 3rd string PF for this 19/8 Center, Ok?"

Yah the Suns have no leverage at all.

I agree. Shaq has huge upside for Cleveland and little long term risk if it doesn't work out.

 

[Rab]

"Hey Cleveland your local superstar has hinted repeatedly that he'll bolt for NY soon if you don't give him some help thus permanently throwing your franchise back into the toilet, so how about you give us a 3rd string PF for this 19/8 Center, Ok?"

Yah the Suns have no leverage at all.

Do you really think 1 year of Shaq is going to keep James in Cleveland? C'mon. Even an extended Shaq probably isn't enough to keep him there if he really wanted to go to NY.

Why haven't more teams offered a young unproven prospect for Shaq? For all we know, Sasha/Wallace is all that's been offered for the past 4-5 months. Shaq is a salary dump. You usually don't get much of anything in return for that other than cap space. See Marcus Camby to the Clipps.

 

[HooverDam]

Do you really think 1 year of Shaq is going to keep James in Cleveland? C'mon. Even an extended Shaq probably isn't enough to keep him there if he really wanted to go to NY.

If Shaq is what pushes Cleveland over the top and helps them win a title, then I absolutely think itll help convince LeBron to stay there. Itll show him that the franchise is doing whatever possible to help him win.

EDIT: Also Shaqs contract makes him extremely difficult to move, theres only a few teams that would have the salaries to match with him. So you say cut the league in half when you reduce the number of teams with matching salaries, then drop out Miami, Orlando and LA where we know he's not going back, then cut out the teams who are young and rebuilding who'd have no need for him, teams that he wouldn't really fit on, etc and you just don't have a lot of options.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Do you really think 1 year of Shaq is going to keep James in Cleveland? C'mon. Even an extended Shaq probably isn't enough to keep him there if he really wanted to go to NY.

Why haven't more teams offered a young unproven prospect for Shaq? For all we know, Sasha/Wallace is all that's been offered for the past 4-5 months. Shaq is a salary dump. You usually don't get much of anything in return for that other than cap space. See Marcus Camby to the Clipps.

Maybe not, but he gives them a heck of a shot at winning a title next year, and when you are this close, you go for it. And none of us have any idea of what is really being offered for Shaq.

Shaq and Lebron together would be a huge story. It would mean huge revenue and attention for the Cavs next year.

Cleveland built their team for now, not later. They are on a highway with no exits that way. They have to continue the plan. For them, its a championship now or bust.

 

[Rab]

My arguement isn't really about what Shaq will do for Cleveland. Maybe it does push them over the top, maybe it doesn't. I could care less honestly. My point is more what the Suns will get in return, which is next to nothing other than cap relief.

Hoover, you mentioned that their aren't many takers for Shaq. You're probably right, so if the Suns are as desperate as it sounds to unload him, that doesn't give them much room to ask for a young prospect.

If the Suns were asking for Hickson, and the Cavs said no, then the Cavs would be stupid, but I don't really think they need to include him to sell the Suns on the deal.

Regardless, if Shaq does end up in Cleveland, and they do win it all next season, I think the odds of LeBron moving on are no different. Just my opinion. I think the allure of NY and the chance to be the savior of the fallen Knicks is enticing enough to get him to bolt, especially if he brought Cleveland a championship, but that discussion is for another day.

 

[Covert Rain]

If Shaq is what pushes Cleveland over the top and helps them win a title, then I absolutely think itll help convince LeBron to stay there. Itll show him that the franchise is doing whatever possible to help him win.

I agree. There are very few players in the NBA that if given the opportunity to add player X to push you over the top.....would still bolt. It all banks on what that player thinks. I guarantee management is asking LeBron what he thinks. His opinion might not be the determining factor but they are not about to make a move to alienate him either when his contract is up.

 

[Rab]

I agree. There are very few players in the NBA that if given the opportunity to add player X to push you over the top.....would still bolt. It all banks on what that player thinks. I guarantee management is asking LeBron what he thinks. His opinion might not be the determining factor but they are not about to make a move to alienate him either when his contract is up.

Difference is, they are adding a player who has 1 year left on his deal, when LeBron can also become a FA. By then you are looking at extending Shaq for another year or two, and he will be 40. I think it makes a difference this year, but beyond that, I'm not so sure.

 

[Covert Rain]

Difference is, they are adding a player who has 1 year left on his deal, when LeBron can also become a FA. By then you are looking at extending Shaq for another year or two, and he will be 40. I think it makes a difference this year, but beyond that, I'm not so sure.

Between the opportunity to win a title and the money he would be giving up going to another team....there is no chance IMO. I think LeBron leaving is much ado about nothing. IMO he doesn't plan on leaving but will use the threat of doing so to get management to bring in players.