OK, now back away from the gas stove and realax!

[Yuma]

Wow, I am reading today's posts and you would think we just traded Shaq from our team!! Easy guys, easy. Take some deep breaths AWAY from the gas stove.

2 numbers 1's and a second round pick and you are ready to get upset about this?

1. There is NO WAY all those picks would make this squad!!

These guys are back for sure next season barring unforseen Bobcat moves, which you CAN"T count on:

• 
  10 Leandro Barbosa G 6-3 176 11/28/82 Brazil R
  11 Zarko Cabarkapa F 6-11 235 5/21/81 Serbia-Montenegro R
  12 Howard Eisley G 6-2 180 12/04/72 Boston College '94 9
  4 Donnell Harvey F 6-8 220 8/26/80 Florida '03 3
  23 Casey Jacobsen F-G 6-6 215 3/19/81 Stanford '03 1
  2 Joe Johnson G-F 6-7 235 6/29/81 Arkansas '01 2
  30 Maciej Lampe F 6-11 240 2/05/85 Poland R
  31 Shawn Marion - C F 6-7 215 5/07/78 UNLV '00 4
  32 Amare Stoudemire F 6-10 245 11/16/82 Cypress Creek (Orlando, FL) '0 1
  43 Jake Voskuhl C 6-11 245 11/01/77 Connecticut '00 3
  55 Jahidi White C-F 6-9 290 2/19/76 Georgetown '98 5

That's 11 guys right there!! Now add a potential re-sign of McDyess, a Vujonic signing, which will happen, and that's 12 to 13 guys BEFORE the draft!!! Who do we get rid of, or can get rid of if we draft a ton of guys this year??

2. IF, and this is a big IF, the team is making a run for Kobe, it's just to put butts in the seats. This team's future rides on the development of Amare, Lampe, Voskuhl, Barbosa, Vujonic, and Cabarkapra, EVEN IF WE GET KOBE! The C's have put their bets on the scouting staff to build this team. I say we give them a chance.

3. The Suns have had years of success making the playoffs and building entertaining teams. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt based on the goodwill they have built with me by having one of the top franchises in all of basketball through the years.

I think they are doing what needs to be done bottom-line. You're either on board the bandwagon, or your off. Right now I am on the bandwagon and my seats are getting better!

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Yuma

• 
  10 Leandro Barbosa G 6-3 176 11/28/82 Brazil R
  11 Zarko Cabarkapa F 6-11 235 5/21/81 Serbia-Montenegro R
  12 Howard Eisley G 6-2 180 12/04/72 Boston College '94 9
  4 Donnell Harvey F 6-8 220 8/26/80 Florida '03 3
  23 Casey Jacobsen F-G 6-6 215 3/19/81 Stanford '03 1
  2 Joe Johnson G-F 6-7 235 6/29/81 Arkansas '01 2
  30 Maciej Lampe F 6-11 240 2/05/85 Poland R
  31 Shawn Marion - C F 6-7 215 5/07/78 UNLV '00 4
  32 Amare Stoudemire F 6-10 245 11/16/82 Cypress Creek (Orlando, FL) '0 1
  43 Jake Voskuhl C 6-11 245 11/01/77 Connecticut '00 3
  55 Jahidi White C-F 6-9 290 2/19/76 Georgetown '98 5

Harvey will NOT be back unless we fail to sign another big man. That's almost a guarantee. So that's 10 guys. Lampe won't play next year, at least not enough to make a big difference. So that's 9.

So we'll have our new draft pick and Milos as the only other 2 possible signees--and Milos is still up in the air.

You might love that roster, but I sure don't. It's nice to be young, but in 4 years that roster won't be winning championships.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Yuma

I think they are doing what needs to be done bottom-line. You're either on board the bandwagon, or your off. Right now I am on the bandwagon and my seats are getting better!

As a Suns fan, there's no such thing as a bandwagon. I am loyal to the Suns no matter what. That's what separates some of us from Laker fans. But that doesn't mean I can't get angry at stupid idiotic deals that make no sense and hurt the chances of our team winning the NBA championship, which is what it is all about--or at least, what it should be about. Instead, it's become about the bottom line--and that's not going to win games for us.

 

[Yuma]

Harvey will NOT be back unless we fail to sign another big man. That's almost a guarantee. So that's 10 guys. Lampe won't play next year, at least not enough to make a big difference. So that's 9.

Whether Lampe plays or not is irrelevent because he will be taking up a roster spot. So at most we just disagree by one player, and that's not enough to make a difference on the argument that out roster is already full. You can't add tons of draft picks to an already full roster!

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Yuma
Whether Lampe plays or not is irrelevent because he will be taking up a roster spot. So at most we just disagree by one player, and that's not enough to make a difference on the argument that out roster is already full. You can't add tons of draft picks to an already full roster!

You're right, but then again, if we're basing all our moves on developing players, why is it such a big deal to not draft a mid-first rounder? After all, Zarko was a mid-first rounder. And of course, that mid-first could be better than Casey (not so difficult) or (in the case of Telfair) could be better than Eisley AND Casey.

 

[Yuma]

As a Suns fan, there's no such thing as a bandwagon. I am loyal to the Suns no matter what. That's what separates some of us from Laker fans. But that doesn't mean I can't get angry at stupid idiotic deals that make no sense and hurt the chances of our team winning the NBA championship, which is what it is all about--or at least, what it should be about. Instead, it's become about the bottom line--and that's not going to win games for us.

You honestly think that AFTER 30 YEARS, JC is just after the dollars?? We wouldn't have had some of the seasons we have had if that was the case! I challenge you to say that to his face!!

I would say the Suns have always looked to sign the BIG Free Agent to take them to the promised land. It came close with Barkley. However, I see them looking to build a team, more than looking for free agent quick fixes that have failed miserably as of late, ie, Penny, Googs, etc.

There's more than one way to win an NBA Championship, or else everyone would be doing the same things. I just find it hard to believe you guys think JC is just mailing it in. That man would trade his Diamondback World Series Ring for an NBA one in a NY minute!! You can bank on that!

 

[elindholm]

Whether Lampe plays or not is irrelevent because he will be taking up a roster spot.

Not if he's stashed on the IR.

And Chaplin is right, Harvey is gone for sure. They desperately need him now and they still aren't using him.

You can't add tons of draft picks to an already full roster!

No one was talking about "tons" of draft picks. The question for this summer was two first-round picks instead of one. That's one extra player who most certainly would have had a chance to make the roster and help the team immediately.

 

[Yuma]

You're right, but then again, if we're basing all our moves on developing players, why is it such a big deal to not draft a mid-first rounder? After all, Zarko was a mid-first rounder. And of course, that mid-first could be better than Casey (not so difficult) or (in the case of Telfair) could be better than Eisley AND Casey.

We all knew we would have to give up picks to reduce the luxury tax and cap numbers. We also knew that we couldn't use all the picks we have acquired. The Suns and others have been saying these things for months. As far as I have read, we will have a pick this year. I know as a fan if you have one pick, you always want 2, etc. I just think they have looked at the numbers and are using the picks in the way they feel is best. We may look from the outside and criticize, but we aren't privy to their cap numbers, trade possibilities, scouting, etc.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Yuma
We all knew we would have to give up picks to reduce the luxury tax and cap numbers. We also knew that we couldn't use all the picks we have acquired. The Suns and others have been saying these things for months. As far as I have read, we will have a pick this year. I know as a fan if you have one pick, you always want 2, etc. I just think they have looked at the numbers and are using the picks in the way they feel is best. We may look from the outside and criticize, but we aren't privy to their cap numbers, trade possibilities, scouting, etc.

Right, we DID know we had to get rid of a pick or two to reduce salaries. But most of us expected the picks to be used to reduce our salary cap number, not our luxury tax amount. This trade does NOTHING for the future of this franchise except reduce the number of draft picks for us. The only money we save--to sign free agents, remember--is the money we would have spent paying that Knick draft pick. So essentially we lose cash, a future first rounder and a second rounder for absolutely nothing.

 

[Yuma]

No one was talking about "tons" of draft picks. The question for this summer was two first-round picks instead of one. That's one extra player who most certainly would have had a chance to make the roster and help the team immediately.

I kept reading that there is concern about guys drafted being able to make the roster. Whether that is pre-trade positioning for the fans or not, I don't know. However that has been mentioned before. Even NOT counting Harvey, we will sign Vujonic and that's 11 guys solid right there. The C's have said they are pursuing 1-2 free agents plus the draft pick we have left and that's a full roster!

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Yuma
I kept reading that there is concern about guys drafted being able to make the roster. Whether that is pre-trade positioning for the fans or not, I don't know. However that has been mentioned before. Even NOT counting Harvey, we will sign Vujonic and that's 11 guys solid right there. The C's have said they are pursuing 1-2 free agents plus the draft pick we have left and that's a full roster!

So you're satisfied with this roster? You think we're going to win a championship with Casey Jacobsen, Howard Eisley and Jahidi White? How can you not be angry that this trade has hampered our draft position in the future? Of course, taking into account all our own picks are still safe, but then again, we DID get those two Knick picks for Stephon Marbury--they had some value, even if it is just sheer principal.

And unless the mid-first we would draft would totally bomb and be a disaster, he'd definitely make the roster, even if it meant stashing him on the IR temporarily.

 

[George O'Brien]

Harvey's minutes have all but defined him as a "lame duck".

I have said that I was not interested in the Suns drafting another "project". Last year the Spurs all but gave the Barbosa to the Suns because they thought he would be a project and did not want to tie up the roster with another guaranteed contract even if he spends the year on IR. The way to think of the team is terms of starters, regular rotation backup players(usually 20 or more minutes) and role players (includes projects).

STARTERS

Stoudemire
Marion
Johnson
Barbosa
Voskuhl

ROTATION BACKUPS

Jacobsen
Eisley/or Vujanic
McDyess

ROLE PLAYERS

Vujanic/or Eisley
White
Carbakapa
Lampe
--------------------------------------------------------------
A draft pick like Okafor could become a rotation backup early in the season. Howard and Smith are likely to be role players for the first year.

FA - A center would would replace Voskuhl and an outside guy would replace Jacobsen or push one either Marion or JJ into the Rotation Backup. That would push Jacobsen down to being a role player.

Unless White or Eisley gets moved, this scenerio is 14 players.
It was not unreasonable to pass on taking on another role player this year, but giving it away without getting future pick was just stupid. While the second pick was certain to be a role player, he would have had at least some trade value.

 

[Yuma]

Right, we DID know we had to get rid of a pick or two to reduce salaries. But most of us expected the picks to be used to reduce our salary cap number, not our luxury tax amount. This trade does NOTHING for the future of this franchise except reduce the number of draft picks for us. The only money we save--to sign free agents, remember--is the money we would have spent paying that Knick draft pick. So essentially we lose cash, a future first rounder and a second rounder for absolutely nothing.

OK, our owner is NOT a billionaire. Cash is cash. You pay money for the luxury tax, that is cash you won't have to sign a free agent even if you are under the cap. Jerry is juggling a few sports franchises in Phoenix and everyone is reporting money is tight. I think he is doing a good job all things considerd. Do we know someone else in the league didn't offer a pick or two for the ability to take those two players from Utah?? Everyone is ASSUMING we were the only ones in that negotiation. I would bet that Jerry is NOT going to do something that would do NOTHING for the franchises future. I know I have had to do things financially NOW that affects my future later. I just don't think today's deal has harmed our future to compete. That would not be done by Jerry if it kept him from an NBA championship. I believe he would sell before it came to that.

 

[Yuma]

So you're satisfied with this roster? You think we're going to win a championship with Casey Jacobsen, Howard Eisley and Jahidi White?

I think Jacobsen is becoming a better player with each game. I am satisfied his IS MAKING progress. Eisley and White will be gone before we win a Championship. As I said earlier, all our young guys will be what makes or breaks us on the run to a Championship. Can I see Barbosa and Lampe be starters a couple years down the road? Yes. If we were able to jettison ALL the guys you don't like off the roster tomorrow, who would you replace them with that would win us a championship right now? Even the Lakers don't know if adding Payton and Malone will be enough for them to win it this year.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Yuma
OK, our owner is NOT a billionaire. Cash is cash. You pay money for the luxury tax, that is cash you won't have to sign a free agent even if you are under the cap. Jerry is juggling a few sports franchises in Phoenix and everyone is reporting money is tight. I think he is doing a good job all things considerd. Do we know someone else in the league didn't offer a pick or two for the ability to take those two players from Utah?? Everyone is ASSUMING we were the only ones in that negotiation. I would bet that Jerry is NOT going to do something that would do NOTHING for the franchises future. I know I have had to do things financially NOW that affects my future later. I just don't think today's deal has harmed our future to compete. That would not be done by Jerry if it kept him from an NBA championship. I believe he would sell before it came to that.

Oh boo hoo. If I'm a season ticket holder, that explanation would be a slap in the face. (No offense Yuma, hope you don't take it that way)

If I pay thousands of dollars for tickets to see the Suns and all I see is Jerry trying to lessen the amount he has to pay for luxury tax, all the while not improving our position to get better on the basketball court, you'd be damn sure I'd be getting a refund. I didn't pay to see Jerry save some money, I paid to see a basketball team play basketball--hopefully for a championship. This trade had NOTHING to do with that.

Remember, Jerry Colangelo is not receiving any money here (except for the piddly amount from luxury tax collections), he is simply not having to pay. By definition, that is plain and simply helping his own wallet, not helping the team. The cap is the cap--it doesn't change whether he pays the tax or not. There's a difference between not having to pay and actually getting money in return.

 

[elindholm]

Eisley and White will be gone before we win a Championship.

Every player currently on the Suns' roster will be retired before the franchise wins a championship.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Eisley and White will be gone before we win a Championship.

Every player currently on the Suns' roster will be retired before the franchise wins a championship.

This is hardly a meaningful statement. Of the 29 teams in the NBA, only five have won it all in the last 15 years. Last year the Kings might have won it if they had not suffered an injury to Weber. But if they don't win it soon, they will have to retool without ever making it to the finals. The Malone/Stockton teams had some great teams and never won it all. There have been innumerable outstanding teams where the ball just failed to fall right. There was one year when the Cavs would have gone to the finals except that Jordan hit a 30 footer at the buzzer.

This is not a case where there is one winner and everyone else is a pathetic loser. The goal of any GM is to put together a team that can compete at the top level. But bad breaks and bad officials can twart even the best prepared teams. This should not detract from their achievements, even though winning it all is the objective.

As long as Shaq and Duncan continue to play, the hope of anyone else to win it all is pretty bleak. But so what? Do you just give away all your players like the Hawks did and give up? I sure wouldn't.

 

[scotsman13]

something like 57% of the total incoming for the nba is what the salery cap is set at. that is somewhere around 43-44 million dollars. earlier in this season the suns payroll was at 66 million dollars. so Jc is paying something over 22 million more then what he should have paid in salery. or something like 80% of the total income for this team. the past couple year the suns have lost money. this year they will be in the black.tell me chaplin how long will you live if you keep spending more money then you bring in? this isnt the us goverment they dont have people lining up to loan them money if they cant make a profit they will go out of business, end of line, no more suns. if JC sold the team do you really think that it would stay in the valley after losing money there? this is a professional basketball team that mean they get paid to play this game, in order to do that you have to make money. if your business isnt bring in more then you are sending out you wont stay in business. econ 101

 

[Dylan]

Yes, a franchise cannot keep losing money, but if a few million saved by
giving up 2 first rounders is the way to
go, then you are in the wrong business.
I hear we are gonna give the Cleveland
pick for Charlotte to take Jahidi... so
that is 3 first rounders for nothing...
we are the worst team in the west,
how come we think we dont need any
draft picks? The Lakers dont need
#1's, the Spurs dont need #1's,
but we need everything we can get,
not saved money in Colangelo's pocket.
What if Lampe doesn't pan out, what if
Vujanic doesn't... where do we go from
there ... 1st round picks are the cheapest
way to accumulate talent...

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by scotsman13
something like 57% of the total incoming for the nba is what the salery cap is set at. that is somewhere around 43-44 million dollars. earlier in this season the suns payroll was at 66 million dollars. so Jc is paying something over 22 million more then what he should have paid in salery. or something like 80% of the total income for this team. the past couple year the suns have lost money. this year they will be in the black.tell me chaplin how long will you live if you keep spending more money then you bring in? this isnt the us goverment they dont have people lining up to loan them money if they cant make a profit they will go out of business, end of line, no more suns. if JC sold the team do you really think that it would stay in the valley after losing money there? this is a professional basketball team that mean they get paid to play this game, in order to do that you have to make money. if your business isnt bring in more then you are sending out you wont stay in business. econ 101

You obviously haven't understood a word I've said all day, and I'm tired of trying to explain it to you.

 

[Yuma]

Originally posted by Chaplin
You obviously haven't understood a word I've said all day, and I'm tired of trying to explain it to you.

No Chap, we DO understand what you are saying!! You don't seem to grasp what we are saying based on what you said about the money situation:

Remember, Jerry Colangelo is not receiving any money here (except for the piddly amount from luxury tax collections), he is simply not having to pay. By definition, that is plain and simply helping his own wallet, not helping the team. The cap is the cap--it doesn't change whether he pays the tax or not. There's a difference between not having to pay and actually getting money in return.

No, the millions he SAVED CAN be used to get a free agent!! If he had to pay the luxury tax AND get a free agent, the net effect is paying TWICE the amount or at least a LOT MORE for that free agent than his signing price!! While that may be an easy pill to swallow for Mark Cuban, I doubt Jerry has THAT much cash just laying around to waste.

Every inside quote I hear about Lampe is he is excellant in practice and he will be the real deal at center when he gets more seasoning and size. The Suns are supposedly high on his upside. They are supposedly high on Barbosa. What I am getting at, is they want to develop THESE guys, NOT move them off the roster for future draft picks.

If I was a season ticket holder I would be pissed if we moved Lampe, and Barbosa. I would wonder why we traded for them. Also, you know Vujanic's rights were a key to the Marbury trade, or he wouldn't have been put in the trade.

I think they have scouted all these guys and feel there isn't a whole lot in the draft that will help them at this point!! I have heard this draft is considered very light in talent when compared to previous drafts. I am fine with picking up a Lampe and Vujonic from a previous draft now, even if we have to trade draft picks to make the franchise get through a cash crunch now.

Everyone is forgetting about the money JC is spending to make the satdium a better experience for the SEASON TICKET HOLDERS. That is taking some huge jack. I can imagine the cash flow situation is a little low right now.

Again, everyone is assuming we were the only team trying to get Utah's expiring contracts. From what I have read, expiring contracts are like gold this year!

The bottom line of my post is that EVERYONE on the baord is moaning the demise of the Suns because of this trade. I believe it won't be the end of the Suns, or any other dire straits that you guys are predicting. We have the guys we want to go to battle with now, with the exception of 1 major free agent, 1 minor free agent, and a draft pick. If we like the team or not at this point is moot. This IS what we have.

Again:

If we were able to jettison ALL the guys you don't like off the roster tomorrow, who would you replace them with that would win us a championship right now? Even the Lakers don't know if adding Payton and Malone will be enough for them to win it this year.

Noone on this board is coming up with a team that fits UNDER the cap that the Suns would win a championship with. We criticize BC, and that's our right as fans, but it isn't as easy as it looks. I am fine with them building on what they have. I don't see a lot of viable alternatives out there.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Yuma

No, the millions he SAVED CAN be used to get a free agent!! If he had to pay the luxury tax AND get a free agent, the net effect is paying TWICE the amount or at least a LOT MORE for that free agent than his signing price!! While that may be an easy pill to swallow for Mark Cuban, I doubt Jerry has THAT much cash just laying around to waste.

NO HE CAN'T.

You are ONLY allowed to pursue a free agent up to the salary cap amount, which is what they were going to do whether they traded Gugliotta or not.

The trade makes it a little nicer for their own pocketbook, but it doesn't make us pursue a more expensive free agent any more likely. Right now, we have like 7.5 million or something to pursue a free agent. Before the trade, we had something like 6.5 million. That's the ONLY amount we can go after a free agent, unless, like Eric has posted yesterday, some circumstances with trading forces us to go over the cap.

THAT is why most on this board don't think Kobe is an option. The trade doesn't change that AT ALL.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Yuma


Every inside quote I hear about Lampe is he is excellant in practice and he will be the real deal at center when he gets more seasoning and size.

Don't be so gullible, Yuma.

What are they going to say? "We traded for the guy, but he really sucks"? Didn't they once say that Antonio Lang and Malcolm Mackey were "great in practice"? Until I see him playing, I'll take those reports with a grain of salt.

 

[SweetD]

Ok people lets get something right JC doesn't personal own the Suns the Suns are a business entity! Plain and simple. As a business owner I know you can't mix your personal money with Business money! If the business isn't making money you still need to get paid. If your business is making allot of money that money stays in the business. (As an owner you can give your self a portions of the extra earning)

The Suns were Loosing money....

Factors

1) High payroll do to large under producing Players. (Hardway, Googs, ect..)

2) Lower attendance at games (Economy, Market Share, Under achieving Products)

3) Luxury Tax ( Dollar for Dollar match over cap est.. $20mil fee)

4) Loss of revenue sharing due to being over the Cap (est.. $10mil)

5) Renovations to AWA (new luxury boxes/Platinum Club)


Resolutions(Business Decisions)

1) Move large under producing Players. (Done)

2) Get under Luxury Tax Threshold (Done)

3) Get to Cap threshold and receive revenue sharing income (Done)

4) Increase attendance with improved product (maybe next year or later)

5) Cover cost of renovations though increased attendance

 

[Chaplin]

NOBODY is saying getting under the tax threshold was a bad thing. NOBODY is saying that getting rid of Googs and his salary was a bad thing.

What we ARE saying is that we paid too much to do it. Do you know for a fact that the Knick pick this summer couldn't have been used as a bargaining chip to get rid of Jahidi's or Eisley's contracts? Now what do we have to bargain with? Casey Jacobsen? Our own lottery pick?