Old Gambo Rumor

[F-Dog]

I'm not sure about Okur because of his outside shooting, but I would rather have Drew Gooden than any of those other players you mentioned. And I'm not a huge Drew Gooden fan.

Compared to me, you are.

In particular, I can't imagine taking Gooden over Troy Murphy. Murphy has three-point range and is an excellent defender by Drew Gooden standards. Plus, Murphy matches up very well with the Spurs specifically, and that's what the Suns always wanted from KT.

Simmons also seems like an easy choice to me--he would be a perfect D'Antoni SF, which is the team's real need, since Marion and Diaw are both better-suited to play PF in the D'Antoni system.

I like Wilcox because he's less of a known quantity than Gooden is, but I can see how you'd prefer Gooden for the same reason.

 

[Errntknght]

Joe Mama, "Oh yeah, I agree with most of your criticisms of his game, but one thing Barbosa does very well is finish around the basket."

I was going to respond to DevilAlums claim that Barbs finished like crap, too. One does have to add a disclaimer though - Barbs does finish badly from the baseline, as we saw in the Dallas series. Also of importance is that Barbs started showing some good judgement about when to pull up and shoot instead of blindly driving all the way every time. I wouldn't say he's done it enough to call it an established pattern but there's certainly grounds to hope.

 

[Joe Mama]

Compared to me, you are.

In particular, I can't imagine taking Gooden over Troy Murphy. Murphy has three-point range and is an excellent defender by Drew Gooden standards. Plus, Murphy matches up very well with the Spurs specifically, and that's what the Suns always wanted from KT.

Simmons also seems like an easy choice to me--he would be a perfect D'Antoni SF, which is the team's real need, since Marion and Diaw are both better-suited to play PF in the D'Antoni system.

I like Wilcox because he's less of a known quantity than Gooden is, but I can see how you'd prefer Gooden for the same reason.

I have to admit you haven't watched Murphy's or Gooden's defense closely enough to really compare the two of them defensively. The reason I would take Drew Gooden over Murphy is because of health. Murphy has missed about 10 games each of the last two seasons, and he missed 53 games that season before that. I did think he had missed more games than the last two seasons though. Drew Gooden has had no injury problems.

Joe

 

[Covert Rain]

Yeah Kurt Thomas put us on pace for 60 wins with those 8ppg/7rpg , Its impossible to find players with those numbers making less than $8mil per year.

And Amare just didnt want to play center, so we could've gotten any warm body to start at center and he probably would've been happy.

Also, Why should i get your sarcasm? We're going back and forth here and it looked like you were trying to make a dig at me.

Maybe use a smiley face icon or something next time.

It's hard to take this seriously. Yes we could have gotten anybody. However, the Suns wouldn't have just gotten anybody. They said after that season they needed to add defense. Your not going to find a defensive minded guy who plays defense and rebounds for less then around 8 million. That's wishful thinking.

They got someone who could actually play the position and add a defensive body. The Suns main reason for getting him was for his defense, not just so Amare could play forward.

If they couldn't have gotten someone like Kurt and ended up with a scrub, Amare would still be playing center. If the Suns were going to just stick anybody in there to make Amare happy, they could have done that at anytime with our own scrubs.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Lecturing me about the content of my posts does absolutely nothing, so why bother?

because it's fun pointing out that you're a hypocrite?

 

[NastyOne]

It's hard to take this seriously. Yes we could have gotten anybody. However, the Suns wouldn't have just gotten anybody. They said after that season they needed to add defense. Your not going to find a defensive minded guy who plays defense and rebounds for less then around 8 million. That's wishful thinking.

Are you serious?

There is a boatload of defensive minded Forwards that make around the MLE (slightly more or slightly less).

Hell the Mavs picked one up for cheap in Diop last offseason.

The only reason Kurt Thomas is on this team is because we found a sucker in Isiah Thomas to take Quentin Richardsons contract off our hands.

Here's a list of guys making less than Kurt Thomas that could contribute just as much, but for less money per year.

Melvin Ely, DeSagana Diop, Dale Davis, Jeff Foster, Joe Smith, Malik Rose, Brian Skinner, Aaron Williams, Brendan Haywood and Etan Thomas.(Would include Eddie Griffin, but he has some screws loose)

Every guy above is known as defensive minded F/C and all could've been had last offseason(Trade or signed).But we took Thomas to get rid of Richardson, not because he would be our savior or something, cause many other forwards could do his job for less money.

 

[pokerface]

The Suns defensive stats were far better with KT in the lineup. Keep him!

 

[Hugh D'Man]

Of those on the pf/c boatload, Ely seems a decent fit. But, I have heard no talks/rumors on him going anywhere. Is it a 'given' that Char will match any reasonable offer ? He is a restricted FA.

 

[mribnik]

Are you serious?

There is a boatload of defensive minded Forwards that make around the MLE (slightly more or slightly less).

Hell the Mavs picked one up for cheap in Diop last offseason.

The only reason Kurt Thomas is on this team is because we found a sucker in Isiah Thomas to take Quentin Richardsons contract off our hands.

Here's a list of guys making less than Kurt Thomas that could contribute just as much, but for less money per year.

Melvin Ely, DeSagana Diop, Dale Davis, Jeff Foster, Joe Smith, Malik Rose, Brian Skinner, Aaron Williams, Brendan Haywood and Etan Thomas.(Would include Eddie Griffin, but he has some screws loose)

Every guy above is known as defensive minded F/C and all could've been had last offseason(Trade or signed).But we took Thomas to get rid of Richardson, not because he would be our savior or something, cause many other forwards could do his job for less money.

I'd take Kurt Thomas over any of those guys and it's not even close IMO.

 

[NastyOne]

I'd take Kurt Thomas over any of those guys and it's not even close IMO.

There are names on that list that are younger, cheaper and still just as good.

 

[Covert Rain]

There are names on that list that are younger, cheaper and still just as good.

No there arn't. If there was the Suns would have run out and gotten them. There is nobody of Kurts caliber available. Your dreaming.

If you want someone of Kurt's caliber your going to pay Kurt type money. Period. I wouldn't take a single one of those guys over Kurt Thomas. Please.

 

[NastyOne]

No there arn't. If there was the Suns would have run out and gotten them. There is nobody of Kurts caliber available. Your dreaming.

If you want someone of Kurt's caliber your going to pay Kurt type money. Period. I wouldn't take a single one of those guys over Kurt Thomas. Please.

I'd take Foster,Ely,Haywood and Joe Smith over Kurt, and all of them make less money and are younger.

 

[mribnik]

I'd take Foster,Ely,Haywood and Joe Smith over Kurt, and all of them make less money and are younger.

ugh, any of those would be a significant downgrade, even for the money, imo.

 

[NastyOne]

ugh, any of those would be a significant downgrade, even for the money, imo.

No they wouldnt

Damn people overvalue Kurt Thomas way too much.

Foster is hands down better than Thomas on defense and rebounding, hes bigger and he makes less money.

Foster averaged almost 10rpg in 25mpg.

Now to Ely...

This guy has the potential to be a rock if given the chance, and there is a reason why everyone on here has always wanted him.

Hes younger, plays tough defense, rebounds and can score when needed.

Next...

Plain and simple, there isnt one GM in the NBA that would take Kurt Thomas over Joe Smith.

Onto Haywood...

He to is equal to Thomas, but hes younger and makes less money. Hes also one of the better shotblockers in the NBA and hes 7ft 260+.Kurt has a way better shot than him, but thats about it.

I think the reason everyone is in love with Thomas is because we havent had a true defensive bigman in here since forever.But hes nothing special and he can easily be replaced with someone younger and cheaper, while not losing much production.

 

[Gaddabout]

Plain and simple, there isnt one GM in the NBA that would take Kurt Thomas over Joe Smith.

I like Smith's game a lot, but he's not going to defend the post like KT. Good attitude, but he's too weak. Smith is good for one thing: Frustrating the fan base. He has starter's game at small forward position, and can play PF for the right team (i.e. legit center), but he is one of the top 3 most chronically injured players of the last decade.

I'd be willing to bet there are a LOT of GMs in the NBA who would take KT over Smith -- without blinking.

 

[mribnik]

No they wouldnt

Damn people overvalue Kurt Thomas way too much.

Or perhaps you undervalue him.

We were 4th in the league in defense with Kurt Thomas with a great record. Without him, we had a .500 record and dropped to 16th in the league. We weren't 16th in the league without him, we dropped 12 places in around 25 games. Without him I'm guessing we were at the bottom of the league in defense. That's how big of a difference he made. Offensively, he sets huge picks and can shoot the ball well. He was also Amare's choice. He fit into our offense perfectly fine, despite not being athletic or fast. I don't think I overvalue him at all.

 

[zett]

I thought Gambo was over rated? So far this off season he is 0 fer 2

 

[JCSunsfan]

Or perhaps you undervalue him.

We were 4th in the league in defense with Kurt Thomas with a great record. Without him, we had a .500 record and dropped to 16th in the league. We weren't 16th in the league without him, we dropped 12 places in around 25 games. Without him I'm guessing we were at the bottom of the league in defense. That's how big of a difference he made. Offensively, he sets huge picks and can shoot the ball well. He was also Amare's choice. He fit into our offense perfectly fine, despite not being athletic or fast. I don't think I overvalue him at all.

I wonder if we are being simplistic about our defense with KT. We were better defensively with KT in the lineup, but we were not as good offensively. In fact, I remember thinking that our run and gun days were over without JJ and Q. After KT was injured, the floor opened up again and the team was faster. The w-l record was better when KT was in.

But there is at least one more factor. James Jones played very well early in the year--on both ends of the floor. He was a solid, if not very good threat from the outside, and a very good defender. He was injured about the same time (maybe a little before) KT was injured, and never was the same after that.

The difference might not be just KT, but rather a combination of things.

 

[JS22]

I thought Gambo was over rated? So far this off season he is 0 fer 2

Uh, the Suns have, what, 3-4 months until the season? (Correct me if I'm wrong.) He was right on with Salmons, who decided to pick TOR once they came into the mix. Gambo broke the news a few days before anyone else did.

He spoke about KT last week, and suddenly he's wrong? Give it time.

 

[nowagimp]

I wonder if we are being simplistic about our defense with KT. We were better defensively with KT in the lineup, but we were not as good offensively. In fact, I remember thinking that our run and gun days were over without JJ and Q. After KT was injured, the floor opened up again and the team was faster. The w-l record was better when KT was in.

But there is at least one more factor. James Jones played very well early in the year--on both ends of the floor. He was a solid, if not very good threat from the outside, and a very good defender. He was injured about the same time (maybe a little before) KT was injured, and never was the same after that.

The difference might not be just KT, but rather a combination of things.

I appreciate your consideration of multiple effects, but its actually quite simple: When KT was in the post on defense, the suns did not double down much on opposing post players. After he was injured the suns went from one of the top 5-6 defenses against the 3pt shot(~34%) to the worst in the league(42% 3pt goals). This was due to leaving perimeter shooters wide open when doubling down. The suns gave up alot of points without KT(109ppg) and opponents' overall shooting percentages went up alot(I dont recall, but it was something like 44% to 48% FG's). This made the suns NEED to score more and run Nash harder. You're right it is complex, but the suns were a much better defensive team with KT. I'd be willing to bet a round of beer that the offensive rebounding(and cheap putbacks) of opponents was not nearly as good with KT in the lineup. The offense was getting better during the year due to the recovery of Leo from injury and the emergence of Diaw. KT may have a lousy fantasy profile, but dont let that fool you. The suns only need KT to play 22-25 mins and there is the rub, he makes 8 mil. I would prefer the suns kept KT and went for the championship this year, especially now with the loss of TT.

 

[F-Dog]

The difference might not be just KT, but rather a combination of things.

Another thing is, the Suns worked a lot harder on defense at the beginning of the season. By February, it was obvious how the playoff picture was going to shake out, and the team went back to coasting on the court like they had (most of) the previous season.



I actually like KT and wouldn't mind having him in the rotation this year. I just don't think he's so important that keeping him is worth the risk of the Suns making panic moves next summer to stay under the tax line.

 

[zett]

Uh, the Suns have, what, 3-4 months until the season? (Correct me if I'm wrong.) He was right on with Salmons, who decided to pick TOR once they came into the mix. Gambo broke the news a few days before anyone else did.

He spoke about KT last week, and suddenly he's wrong? Give it time.

I didn't see any thing about salmons prediction, he said in the next 24 to 48 hrs we were trading for a back up point and a back up center from a eastern conf team! did it happend no! strike one. He then said we are trading KT, thats like saying were trading Marion, yeah it will happen eventually but thats not exactly rocket science thinking. either theres somthing on the table or he's full of manure. waiting 3 or 4 months isn't that ringing of an endorsement!

 

[Errntknght]

I've read all your arguments about KT's tremendous importance to the team, nowagimp, but I do believe you're overstating it.

My principal reason for disagreeing is that KT was missing for the playoff run and the Suns did very well - that is simply more important than what happened in the regular season. The Suns had to adjust a lot when KT went down and it took time for that to be worked out - for example, TT was filling in for him to a considerable extent and his game is very different from KT's. Heck, for a few games D'Antoni experimented with Burke. In fact the Suns were still adjusting and improving as the playoffs progressed - that is when Diaw really came into his own. Its fairly likely that with KT playing Boris would not have blossomed as much.

Also, JCSunsfan does have a legitimate point about James Jones and along that same line, Eddie House's shooting went into the toilet down the stretch - with the indirect effect that Nash had to play considerably longer minutes, causing his efficiency to drop on both ends of the floor.

 

[Covert Rain]

I thought Gambo was over rated? So far this off season he is 0 fer 2

That doesn't mean the trades that he brought up were not attempted or being discussed. Trades get quashed at the last minute all the time. Usually when Gambo reports something...where theres smoke there is fire. Doesn't mean his source was bogus or the report wasn't true.

 

[Muggum]

Look, if Gambo says 'A' is going to happen, and 'B' happens instead, he was WRONG, not right. You can't give Gambo credit for saying 'something' was going to happen. Of course SOMETHING was going to happen. Something happens every off-season! But he's got to get it right (or God forbid, close to right), or he's no more expert than any of us on here! If Gambo gets credit for everything that ends up happening just because he makes some predictions, then let me take his place: This offseason, some players will leave the Suns, the Suns will try to get other players and fail, they'll talk trade with some folks, and they'll end up getting some new players. Gambo's got nothing on me.

He missed on Salmons. He missed on the big man / back-up PG with the eastern conference team. He missed on Banks (scooped by Paul Coro). He's a hack.