On Langston Moore and the Chris Cooper swap and other musings

[Russ Smith]

I noted that Shipp came in for Edge last game because Warner laid Shipp out in a serious way over the middle in the second quarter. I don't really understand how you can say that "it's clear" that JJ is the backup, since Shipp has all of one more touch than J.J. does and was the captian of the special teams last Sunday. I'm saying this as a guy that likes Arrington a lot and would prefer that Shipp go find a job selling cars, but that's not what I'm seeing.

I just think that it's way too early to start rubbing people's faces in J.J. Arrington and saying "I told you so," but I guess that Spanky has to do something now that he can't try selling John Bronson making the team and supplanting both 'Femi and Hodgins.

I say it's clear because all through the preseason when Edge wasn't playing, JJ was getting the starters carries. When Edge skipped workouts JJ was the guy getting starters reps. And when Edge sat against SF, JJ was the RB not Shipp. I think Shipp may be the 3rd down RB when Edge is out because he's a better receiver than JJ, but I think so far there's nothing to suggest that JJ is NOT the backup RB. Hopefully we never have to find that out except in blowout wins.

Shipp has 1 touch all year, I think both guys are contributing on special teams and let's be honest when you sign a back like Edgerrin James, that's about all you can expect from your backup RB's, if Edge is healthy he's going to get the overwhelming majority of the carries.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Yeah, we could argue this forever because I thought Dockett played even better when Moore was in for Clancy. And we can't compare any kind of stats because tackle stats are so nebulous and the Cards flip their DT's so much with Dockett playing next to Berry one series and then next to Okeafor that you can't use the defensive yardage stats either.

What we do know is that Green suddenly didn't want Moore any longer. What we don't know is why.

Well, perhaps Green and Pendegast view Cooper in the same way as Smith; a versatile DT / DE, that allows for more creativity in the defensive packages than with Moore.

(As for additional reasons: The number of offsides by a BACKUP DT might be a pretty good reason, in their assessement)

 

[Duckjake]

Well, perhaps Green and Pendegast view Cooper in the same way as Smith; a versatile DT / DE, that allows for more creativity in the defensive packages than with Moore.

(As for additional reasons: The number of offsides by a BACKUP DT might be a pretty good reason, in their assessement)

It also could be they intend to go with Antonio Smith/Dockett and Gabe Watson/Clancy more at DT and wanted Cooper as insurance at DE. Putting Cooper who is listed at 280-290 in to spell Clancy would be nuts. He could go in for Dockett but they already have Antonio to do that.

There is no one behind Clancy now but a couple of rookies who have not played a down in regular season. It doesn't make sense to cut a veteran who has played well and leave yourself in that position just because he jumps offsides unless you are really certain that Watson or Lewis will be just as good or better. But then Green has been known to cut off his nose a time or two.

Moore sure was on the field a lot for a guy who was nothing more than the #5Defensive Tackle. That is what makes me wonder what happened that Moore was released just 5 days after Green was singing his praises.

 

[jefftheshark]

That is what makes me wonder what happened that Moore was released just 5 days after Green was singing his praises.

I have 4 theories:

1) He was Mort's "source".

2) They found out his hometown was Pottsville.

3) It was his arm that knocked the ball loose from Warner's hands, causing him to fumble.

4) Of all the players we had on the roster, he was the worst.

The Shark

 

[Duckjake]

I have 4 theories:

1) He was Mort's "source".

2) They found out his hometown was Pottsville.

3) It was his arm that knocked the ball loose from Warner's hands, causing him to fumble.

4) Of all the players we had on the roster, he was the worst.

The Shark

Couldn't be #4 that would be either Monica, Gorin or Navarre. I have a theory that he was becoming good friends with Pete Kendall.

 

[Sandan]

He wasn't the worst player on the squad, I just suspect he lost the numbers game.

We have other options at NT

 

[clif]

Moore also got manhandled more than once last week. Go back and watch the tape.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

It also could be they intend to go with Antonio Smith/Dockett and Gabe Watson/Clancy more at DT and wanted Cooper as insurance at DE. Putting Cooper who is listed at 280-290 in to spell Clancy would be nuts. He could go in for Dockett but they already have Antonio to do that.

There is no one behind Clancy now but a couple of rookies who have not played a down in regular season. It doesn't make sense to cut a veteran who has played well and leave yourself in that position just because he jumps offsides unless you are really certain that Watson or Lewis will be just as good or better. But then Green has been known to cut off his nose a time or two.

Moore sure was on the field a lot for a guy who was nothing more than the #5Defensive Tackle. That is what makes me wonder what happened that Moore was released just 5 days after Green was singing his praises.

Well, it would be unlikely that they'd pickup Cooper and release Moore, without Pendergast being actively involved in the decision. As said; he perhaps views Cooper's skill sets as more in keeping with some of his schemes.

Also, given the number of times I see Clancy and Dockett flipping sides, I wonder whether if we can say that we have a true NT. So, the rookies (when dressed for games) could as easily be substituting for Dockett as Clancy.

We used PACE inside on some schemes last year, so a Smith / Cooper mix depending on down and distance is not inconceivable.

 

[Duckjake]

Well, it would be unlikely that they'd pickup Cooper and release Moore, without Pendergast being actively involved in the decision. As said; he perhaps views Cooper's skill sets as more in keeping with some of his schemes.

Also, given the number of times I see Clancy and Dockett flipping sides, I wonder whether if we can say that we have a true NT. So, the rookies (when dressed for games) could as easily be substituting for Dockett as Clancy.

We used PACE inside on some schemes last year, so a Smith / Cooper mix depending on down and distance is not inconceivable.

That mix sure would leave them light on the line. But it could be used in a 5 man line which they have used on numerous occasions.

Moore also got manhandled more than once last week. Go back and watch the tape.

I have watched some but haven't seen Moore get manhandled so I'll look further. But Clancy gets manhandled as well. That happens to those guys. The guys on the offensive line are getting paid too.

 

[BACH]

I have 4 theories:

1) He was Mort's "source".

2) They found out his hometown was Pottsville.

3) It was his arm that knocked the ball loose from Warner's hands, causing him to fumble.

4) Of all the players we had on the roster, he was the worst.

The Shark

Why so complicated? The simple answer is often the right one.

5) Of all the positions on the team, DTs are our deepest group, hence making the last guy on the depth chart at DT the most expendable player.

True, Watson and Lewis hasn't been in action yet, but they reportedly outplayed Moore in camp, so they were kept over Moore.

AND if this move back-fires, then Moore can be brought back in. He hasn't signed with another team. (People tend to forget this when saying what a great player he is)

 

[clif]

I have watched some but haven't seen Moore get manhandled so I'll look further. But Clancy gets manhandled as well. That happens to those guys. The guys on the offensive line are getting paid too.

Are you really trying to make a case that Moore was more stout against the run than Clancy?

Everyone gets beat occasionally, but Moore got beat more than occasionally. He also jumped offsides in every game and in most cases two times a game. You keep glossing over that fact. Those are 5 yards a pop. He plays over the center for goodness sakes! He should never be called for that penalty! If you took all the positive plays he has made and subtract all the negative plays the odds would be stacked against him by a huge margin. I just don't know why people keep ignoring that fact.

 

[Duckjake]

Are you really trying to make a case that Moore was more stout against the run than Clancy?

Everyone gets beat occasionally, but Moore got beat more than occasionally. He also jumped offsides in every game and in most cases two times a game. You keep glossing over that fact. Those are 5 yards a pop. He plays over the center for goodness sakes! He should never be called for that penalty! If you took all the positive plays he has made and subtract all the negative plays the odds would be stacked against him by a huge margin. I just don't know why people keep ignoring that fact.

I ignore it because I don't believe it is a factual statement. Moore got push on passing plays which Clancy seldom if ever does. Moore also is the only DT I've seen in several years who actually would push a blocker back on running downs. I have not seen Clancy do anything special in 3 games other than get credit for a sack that should have gone to Okeafor.

I guess you believe Green was lying last week when he said that Moore was too good to cut.

I'll go with the numbers game and that the Cards think that Watson has more upside and wanted some more help at DE but I do not believe Moore was cut because of poor play.

 

[jefftheshark]

It seems that players are being held a little more accountable this year (Macklin, Moore, Warner). Probably has to do with the depth of the team being deeper. As Duckjake stated, "it's a numbers game". You don't want to be the worst player at your position on this team.

The Shark

 

[clif]

I ignore it because I don't believe it is a factual statement. Moore got push on passing plays which Clancy seldom if ever does. Moore also is the only DT I've seen in several years who actually would push a blocker back on running downs. I have not seen Clancy do anything special in 3 games other than get credit for a sack that should have gone to Okeafor.

I guess you believe Green was lying last week when he said that Moore was too good to cut.

I'll go with the numbers game and that the Cards think that Watson has more upside and wanted some more help at DE but I do not believe Moore was cut because of poor play.

Go back and look at the play by play.

You must have missed Clancy pushing his man back into stephen jackson's face the first play after Warner's first int. You know.. the one where his helmet gets knocked off and he is seeing jawing with the guy?

You also missed the fact that rarely did the Rams have success running in the middle.. mostly when Clancy was not in. Of course they all have their bad plays, but you can't even begin to compare Clancy and Moore.

 

[Duckjake]

It seems that players are being held a little more accountable this year (Macklin, Moore, Warner). Probably has to do with the depth of the team being deeper. As Duckjake stated, "it's a numbers game". You don't want to be the worst player at your position on this team.

The Shark

I don't think you even need to be the least talented player at your position. Just give the coaching staff an indication that you are not 100% dedicated to winning. It is about time somebody with the Cardinals instituted a penalty for failure. As much as I question Greens game day coaching I have to give Denny props for that.

 

[kerouac9]

I say it's clear because all through the preseason when Edge wasn't playing, JJ was getting the starters carries. When Edge skipped workouts JJ was the guy getting starters reps. And when Edge sat against SF, JJ was the RB not Shipp. I think Shipp may be the 3rd down RB when Edge is out because he's a better receiver than JJ, but I think so far there's nothing to suggest that JJ is NOT the backup RB. Hopefully we never have to find that out except in blowout wins.

Shipp has 1 touch all year, I think both guys are contributing on special teams and let's be honest when you sign a back like Edgerrin James, that's about all you can expect from your backup RB's, if Edge is healthy he's going to get the overwhelming majority of the carries.

As you say, this is a pretty academic argument, and this team has far more worries than who is the guy playing behind the Pro Bowl back who is going to take over 95% of all offensive snaps anyway.

I'm just saying that, at this point, it's a little early for spanky to be chest-thumping over J.J. Arrington, who's play this season has been uneven at best and hasn't shown himself to be an adequate third-down option, when he should be the greater danger for draws and passes into the flat at this point.

 

[Russ Smith]

As you say, this is a pretty academic argument, and this team has far more worries than who is the guy playing behind the Pro Bowl back who is going to take over 95% of all offensive snaps anyway.

I'm just saying that, at this point, it's a little early for spanky to be chest-thumping over J.J. Arrington, who's play this season has been uneven at best and hasn't shown himself to be an adequate third-down option, when he should be the greater danger for draws and passes into the flat at this point.

Agreed, been saying that since we drafted JJ he's not good at catching the ball out of the backfield and until he learns to do that he's limiting his usefulness to this team.

He looked good the first 2 weeks returning KO's save the fumble that came back, but last week twice he returned balls that both radio announcers immediately said he should have never taken out. not sure but I suspect he's heard all the too soft talk and is trying to prove he's not by bringing the ball out or something but KO returners have to learn when to take a knee if you can't be sure you're going to get past the 20 and it's in the endzone, down it.

 

[Duckjake]

Go back and look at the play by play.

You must have missed Clancy pushing his man back into stephen jackson's face the first play after Warner's first int. You know.. the one where his helmet gets knocked off and he is seeing jawing with the guy?

You also missed the fact that rarely did the Rams have success running in the middle.. mostly when Clancy was not in. Of course they all have their bad plays, but you can't even begin to compare Clancy and Moore.

I can compare Clancy and Moore because I just watched the first half again during lunch and could not see any difference in play at all.

You must have missed Moore intimidating Icognito into snapping the ball over Bulger's head setting up a 2nd and 26 when the Rams were deep in Cardinal territory late in the first half.

I did miss however that Clancy knocked the ball out of Bulger's hand right before Okeafor tackled Bulger. So that may be why he got credit for the sack without making the tackle.

Something else I missed was that Clancy and Moore were in the game at the same time and Clancy was much more effective. The Rams could not run against that line. I also noticed that Antonio Smith was in for Clancy on some obvious passing downs.

What I did not miss was seeing Cardinal LB's fill holes. Hayes has done a great job.