On the "fumble" for TD play

[Russ Smith]

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I didn't even notice this before. Watch Thomas Davis' left hand as he fights off David Johnson, why that looks like an illegal hands to the face penalty on him doesn't it? I know they rarely call that on the ball carrier but as if the mistake on the incomplete pass isn't enough.

The more that I look at it the more I think if I had the advantage of replay when I first called it, I'd have called it intentional grounding. I don't think there's any way that pass gets to the LOS, and he's not outside the tackle. I think he was clearly trying to get it to DJ but it probably wouldn't have gotten there.

But I'm still amazed it wasn't overturned. Now we're being told the replays weren't working either in Carolina or New York and they're apparently not allowed to just watch the replay on FOX because that would be too logical. I mean someone might photoshop the replay so it looks like a pass not a fumble so we can't look at the tv replay.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

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I didn't even notice this before. Watch Thomas Davis' left hand as he fights off David Johnson, why that looks like an illegal hands to the face penalty on him doesn't it? I know they rarely call that on the ball carrier but as if the mistake on the incomplete pass isn't enough.

The more that I look at it the more I think if I had the advantage of replay when I first called it, I'd have called it intentional grounding. I don't think there's any way that pass gets to the LOS, and he's not outside the tackle. I think he was clearly trying to get it to DJ but it probably wouldn't have gotten there.

But I'm still amazed it wasn't overturned. Now we're being told the replays weren't working either in Carolina or New York and they're apparently not allowed to just watch the replay on FOX because that would be too logical. I mean someone might photoshop the replay so it looks like a pass not a fumble so we can't look at the tv replay.

If the replays weren't working, how did they find it possible to overturn the Jefferson INT? Something doesn't pass the sniff test.

 

[Russ Smith]

If the replays weren't working, how did they find it possible to overturn the Jefferson INT? Something doesn't pass the sniff test.

Yeah the whole thing doesn't make sense to me. I always assumed the NFL has both the tv replays and their own but apparently that's not true.

In basketball they are allowed to use tv replays for that exact reason, if the regular replay is down they want to get the call right so use the tv replay. At least IIRC that's how it is.

Even people with no rooting interest who think I complain about calls all the time are in agreement that's clearly a pass. One guy pointed out notice how absolutely nobody chases Davis, Johnson tried for a 2nd but everyone else just stops and watches because they know it's a pass. I think 3 Panthers go in with him but on the replay you can see Arians with the challenge flag in his hand, Palmer clearly showing that he flipped it forward, and the OL next to him making a passing motion, I think they're both telling arians because they want him to throw the challenge flag not knowing he can't challenge the play.

 

[Buckybird]

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I didn't even notice this before. Watch Thomas Davis' left hand as he fights off David Johnson, why that looks like an illegal hands to the face penalty on him doesn't it? I know they rarely call that on the ball carrier but as if the mistake on the incomplete pass isn't enough.

The more that I look at it the more I think if I had the advantage of replay when I first called it, I'd have called it intentional grounding. I don't think there's any way that pass gets to the LOS, and he's not outside the tackle. I think he was clearly trying to get it to DJ but it probably wouldn't have gotten there.

But I'm still amazed it wasn't overturned. Now we're being told the replays weren't working either in Carolina or New York and they're apparently not allowed to just watch the replay on FOX because that would be too logical. I mean someone might photoshop the replay so it looks like a pass not a fumble so we can't look at the tv replay.

Intentional grounding would've been better than a fumble six to start off in a do or die game

 

[Russ Smith]

Intentional grounding would've been better than a fumble six to start off in a do or die game

Right even that would have been preferable to just a bad no call for a TD and then not reviewing it.

When Mitch posted it yesterday I disagreed but the more I look at it the more you can say yeah that's grounding. If the OL and the DL aren't in the way MAYBE that ball gets to DJ but I doubt it.

 

[jbeecham]

I call complete BS... if the replay equipment wasn't working then why would the refs tell BA that the booth guy determined it didn't need to be reviewed?

Goodell is just trying to cover up the refs retaliation for BA's complaints about the Seattle screwjob. 2nd & 44 on 4 ticky tack penalties in a row... replay equipment failure didn't cause that.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yeah the whole thing doesn't make sense to me. I always assumed the NFL has both the tv replays and their own but apparently that's not true.

In basketball they are allowed to use tv replays for that exact reason, if the regular replay is down they want to get the call right so use the tv replay. At least IIRC that's how it is.

Even people with no rooting interest who think I complain about calls all the time are in agreement that's clearly a pass. One guy pointed out notice how absolutely nobody chases Davis, Johnson tried for a 2nd but everyone else just stops and watches because they know it's a pass. I think 3 Panthers go in with him but on the replay you can see Arians with the challenge flag in his hand, Palmer clearly showing that he flipped it forward, and the OL next to him making a passing motion, I think they're both telling arians because they want him to throw the challenge flag not knowing he can't challenge the play.

Exactly. I would have thrown in and wasted a time out on purpose. I am flabbergasted that it wasn't a pass.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

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But I'm still amazed it wasn't overturned. Now we're being told the replays weren't working either in Carolina or New York and they're apparently not allowed to just watch the replay on FOX because that would be too logical. I mean someone might photoshop the replay so it looks like a pass not a fumble so we can't look at the tv replay.

Ratings are down, penalties are up, and the whole NFL game is under a lot of scrutiny. This is called a "public relations move". Last thing the NFL needs are complaints getting spot lighted in a game between two small market non-contenders.

Expect more and more of this for this season now that our team is out of it.

 

[WisconsinCard]

Intentional grounding would've been better than a fumble six to start off in a do or die game

But it's not grounding if there is a receiver in the area. It doesn't have to reach the line of scrimmage as long as they're in the area. That is why you'll see QBs throw the ball straight to the ground on a blown up screen pass.

 

[WisconsinCard]

If the replays weren't working, how did they find it possible to overturn the Jefferson INT? Something doesn't pass the sniff test.

They said the replay equipment wasn't working at that time. They miraculously got it fixed in time for them to reverse an INT...

I am kidding of course, I believe that replay stuff was down because no one in their right mind would not see CP flip the ball forward with the ball in his hand.

 

[Russ Smith]

Exactly. I would have thrown in and wasted a time out on purpose. I am flabbergasted that it wasn't a pass.

They actually now that I watch it agian should have called ineligible receiver because the pass hit Veldheer before it hit the DL.

again I'd take that over a TD return any day.

Even a Seahawk fan who was disagreeing with me on multiple calls in last weeks game said yes that was a pass not a fumble.

The calls are so nuts these days. in the game yesterday PP returned a punt and after he's out of bounds he gets hit and goes down tripping over another defender. The flag goes up and I'm saying ok good call, and they call holding on us on the return.

 

[Russ Smith]

But it's not grounding if there is a receiver in the area. It doesn't have to reach the line of scrimmage as long as they're in the area. That is why you'll see QBs throw the ball straight to the ground on a blown up screen pass.

Watch again and see if you agree it hits Veldheer and should be ineligible receiver?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Watch again and see if you agree it hits Veldheer and should be ineligible receiver?[/QUOTE

Thomas hit his arm after the forward throwing motion started, so it can hit a lineman when it is considered a pass deflection. DJ was also in the area.

 

[Big D]

Am I the only one who thinks it was an incredibly stupid play by Palmer in the first place? When a defender has both of his arms around your arms in the pocket, protect the damn football.

Was it a forward pass? Yes, obviously, however in a game you have to have why be so loose with the football? Dumb play all around.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Am I the only one who thinks it was an incredibly stupid play by Palmer in the first place? When a defender has both of his arms around your arms in the pocket, protect the damn football.

Was it a forward pass? Yes, obviously, however in a game you have to have why be so loose with the football? Dumb play all around.

Probably. He did the same thing that was complete to DJ later in the game for a first down. Shovel passes are usually improvised.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I call complete BS... if the replay equipment wasn't working then why would the refs tell BA that the booth guy determined it didn't need to be reviewed?

Goodell is just trying to cover up the refs retaliation for BA's complaints about the Seattle screwjob. 2nd & 44 on 4 ticky tack penalties in a row... replay equipment failure didn't cause that.

Ok Cam...

 

[Iceman]

With the amount of calls going against the Cards this year, I swear the NFL dislikes the Cards for some reason. Maybe its because Arians stubbornness/ego? Did the Cards play horrible, yes, but man, its hard to win when you are battling poor officiating and playing like crap. Along with this missed call, how about the call on Valdeer for not lining up on the line of scrimmage penalty?? I have never heard of a lineman (besides a TE) being called for illegal formation for not being lined up on the line of scrimmage. That negated an 8 yard gain to DJ, which ended up being the 3rd and 44 series. Very frustrating to watch yesterday.

 

[kerouac9]

Bemoaning officiating is embarrassing. C'mon, guys. We lost by 10 points! We suck! That's not the official's fault. These might not be the Same Ol' Cards, but these sound a lot like the Sam Ol' Cards fans.

 

[WisconsinCard]

Thomas hit his arm after the forward throwing motion started, so it can hit a lineman when it is considered a pass deflection. DJ was also in the area.

This, even if he was not hit then it still wouldn't be pass interference it would be illegal touch.

 

[Russ Smith]

With the amount of calls going against the Cards this year, I swear the NFL dislikes the Cards for some reason. Maybe its because Arians stubbornness/ego? Did the Cards play horrible, yes, but man, its hard to win when you are battling poor officiating and playing like crap. Along with this missed call, how about the call on Valdeer for not lining up on the line of scrimmage penalty?? I have never heard of a lineman (besides a TE) being called for illegal formation for not being lined up on the line of scrimmage. That negated an 8 yard gain to DJ, which ended up being the 3rd and 44 series. Very frustrating to watch yesterday.

They call that all the time but the guy is usually WAY off the LOS to get a head start on a speed rusher. This was a run play and he had the TE outside of him. In fact live they called it on Gresham not Veldheer but apparently officially it was on Veldheer.

 

[Russ Smith]

Bemoaning officiating is embarrassing. C'mon, guys. We lost by 10 points! We suck! That's not the official's fault. These might not be the Same Ol' Cards, but these sound a lot like the Sam Ol' Cards fans.

Well those of us that like math probably realize if you deduct the 7 points for the bad call fumble return we only lost by 3 points. And if you do that we don't go for 2 so we only lost by 2 points. And if you do that the whole game is played differently and we still might lose, or we might have won.

The point being the Panthers got a TD on a totally reversible call because the NFL says the replay system wasn't working and they are not allowed to just turn on FOX, watch the replay and then make the obvious correction to the call.

The NFL is a multi billion dollar industry, stuff like this should not be happening in 2016.

Not in any way claiming it's a conspiracy but the reality is the Cards got screwed on that call and apparently all the NFL has to say is sorry that was a bad call.

 

[Russ Smith]

This, even if he was not hit then it still wouldn't be pass interference it would be illegal touch.

Not pass interference I meant he's an ineligible receiver or as you said illegal touch.

 

[kerouac9]

Well those of us that like math probably realize if you deduct the 7 points for the bad call fumble return we only lost by 3 points. And if you do that we don't go for 2 so we only lost by 2 points. And if you do that the whole game is played differently and we still might lose, or we might have won.

The point being the Panthers got a TD on a totally reversible call because the NFL says the replay system wasn't working and they are not allowed to just turn on FOX, watch the replay and then make the obvious correction to the call.

The NFL is a multi billion dollar industry, stuff like this should not be happening in 2016.

Not in any way claiming it's a conspiracy but the reality is the Cards got screwed on that call and apparently all the NFL has to say is sorry that was a bad call.

I couldn't hear you over the siren from the Wah-mbulance. We got dominated in every phase of the game. That play happened on a 3rd and 6; if it's a sack or an incomplete pass or intentional grounding, we're still losing possession.

Honestly, the Panthers probably just block the punt and run it back for a TD instead.

 

[JeffGollin]

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I didn't even notice this before. Watch Thomas Davis' left hand as he fights off David Johnson, why that looks like an illegal hands to the face penalty on him doesn't it? I know they rarely call that on the ball carrier but as if the mistake on the incomplete pass isn't enough.

The more that I look at it the more I think if I had the advantage of replay when I first called it, I'd have called it intentional grounding. I don't think there's any way that pass gets to the LOS, and he's not outside the tackle. I think he was clearly trying to get it to DJ but it probably wouldn't have gotten there.

But I'm still amazed it wasn't overturned. Now we're being told the replays weren't working either in Carolina or New York and they're apparently not allowed to just watch the replay on FOX because that would be too logical. I mean someone might photoshop the replay so it looks like a pass not a fumble so we can't look at the tv replay.

The replay on TV showed D Johnson was within passing range.

 

[Russ Smith]

I couldn't hear you over the siren from the Wah-mbulance. We got dominated in every phase of the game. That play happened on a 3rd and 6; if it's a sack or an incomplete pass or intentional grounding, we're still losing possession.

Honestly, the Panthers probably just block the punt and run it back for a TD instead.

You brought up the 10 points I'm merely pointing out 7 of those 10 points should not have happened.

Bad calls that directly end in a Touchdown are a big deal. We should have been punting not getting a KO down 7-0.

I didn't say the call cost us the game I clearly said we might still have lost. I just get a bit tired of the NFL using these excuses when they miss plays. Everyone that saw that play on FOX knew it was a bad call, the NFL apparently has a rule that prevents them from using the TV feed, the goal should be get the call correct, they didn't.