One draft opinion

Cardiac

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
12,062
Reaction score
3,331
Thanks for the info Cbus. Of course we can all agree to disagree about how good the draft will turn out but I don't see the need for anyone to bash anyone else's opinion at this point. Yes I have more faith in SK then the Jags FO but that's because I'm a Cards fan who just witnessed his team win ten games in the NFC Best.

When any GM/FO hits on 100% of their picks it will be the 1st time.

Why I feel good about Deone's chances is his attitude that comes through on his interviews.
 

Mulli

...
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Posts
52,529
Reaction score
4,601
Location
Generational
Thanks for the info Cbus. Of course we can all agree to disagree about how good the draft will turn out but I don't see the need for anyone to bash anyone else's opinion at this point. Yes I have more faith in SK then the Jags FO but that's because I'm a Cards fan who just witnessed his team win ten games in the NFC Best.

When any GM/FO hits on 100% of their picks it will be the 1st time.

Why I feel good about Deone's chances is his attitude that comes through on his interviews.

This!
 

Jay Cardinal

Die Hard Cardinals Fan
Joined
Nov 15, 2004
Posts
1,339
Reaction score
323
Location
Tempe, AZ
Thanks for the info CBus. It good to hear what other teams thought of our picks. Might not be exactly what some others want to hear, but valuable IMO.

I think Deone Buchannon struggles in pass coverage. If the scheme requires the SS to routinely cover players, he would be valued a lot lower. If the Cards use him strictly as an in-the-box safety I think he can excel. But I do not think he will be a big interception guy in the pros.

I am hoping he is wrong on Niklaus though. I think he is young and still developing as a TE. I believe that he would have been the top-rated tight end in next year's draft and probable first round pick. I also think he is a great system fit as BA is on the record saying he wants his tight ends to be able to block effectively.
 

82CardsGrad

7 x 70
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Posts
36,151
Reaction score
8,074
Location
Scottsdale
You do realize the cards had rod graves running their draft for years and that's who keim learned from.



Just saying, it's pretty funny for a cards fan to be saying consider the source and act like keim/cards are beyond reproach.


What evidence do you have that Keim deploys anything that would resemble Graves? What has Keim done in his short stint as GM to make you think he's nothing but a Graves clone?
No, he is of course not beyond reproach. But, until he demonstrates some serious shortcomings, or shows that he's merely carrying out what he "learned" from Graves, I would say he more than deserves the benefit if the doubt at this stage...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
OP
OP
Cbus cardsfan

Cbus cardsfan

Back to Back ASFN FFL Champion
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
21,463
Reaction score
7,632
Thanks for the info CBus. It good to hear what other teams thought of our picks. Might not be exactly what some others want to hear, but valuable IMO.

I think Deone Buchannon struggles in pass coverage. If the scheme requires the SS to routinely cover players, he would be valued a lot lower. If the Cards use him strictly as an in-the-box safety I think he can excel. But I do not think he will be a big interception guy in the pros.

I am hoping he is wrong on Niklaus though. I think he is young and still developing as a TE. I believe that he would have been the top-rated tight end in next year's draft and probable first round pick. I also think he is a great system fit as BA is on the record saying he wants his tight ends to be able to block effectively.

He likes Niklas's potential and just thinks he's a bit raw which is understandable seeing he's only played the position for a couple years. There wasn't anything negative about him at all. He thought he'd go in round 3, no biggie. Niklas wouldn't have been there in round 3 for the Cards. Plus, overall, he liked the players the Cards picked. There are a lot people who thought the Bucannon pick was out of left field. That doesn't make it wrong. It's no different than when Seattle took the WVU DE a couple years ago.



What evidence do you have that Keim deploys anything that would resemble Graves? What has Keim done in his short stint as GM to make you think he's nothing but a Graves clone?
No, he is of course not beyond reproach. But, until he demonstrates some serious shortcomings, or shows that he's merely carrying out what he "learned" from Graves, I would say he more than deserves the benefit if the doubt at this stage...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I like Keim and think he's done well. Btw, this guy knows Keim well and thinks he'll do a great job. I was reacting, and I let it get to me, which I shouldn't have, to the idiots who say well it Jacksonville, it doesn't matter. Or I wouldn't let Jax grade my 7th graders paper.

I was just pointing out that the Cards draft history hasn't been all that stellar
to be bagging on ANY team.


In the end, I know the vast majority of you guys(and gals) are great fans and I'm not going to let a few posters ruin what I think is a unique situation. If I can get a team's front office perspective on things about the Cards, or even other NFL issues, I'll more than gladly share.

He's provided some good info to me over the years. Ryan Swope having concussion issues, saying he thought DWash would get in trouble down the road, that Sam Montgomery was a nut job to name a few. He interviews and researches many of the prospects.

He makes fun of their past mistakes too. The frustrating guy is Justin Blackmon. Megatron/AJ Green talent but can't stay clean.

He was telling me all kinds of things about Manziel, Clowney, McCarron, Hageman, Roby, Hyde, etc., that paint a completely different picture than what the media portrays. One of them is Michael Sam. I'm not going to share details, but homosexual, or not, he's just not a good guy and that's why he dropped moreso than anything else.
 

Duckjake

LEGACY MEMBER
LEGACY MEMBER
Joined
Jun 10, 2002
Posts
32,190
Reaction score
317
Location
Texas
Thanks for the info Cbus. Of course we can all agree to disagree about how good the draft will turn out but I don't see the need for anyone to bash anyone else's opinion at this point. Yes I have more faith in SK then the Jags FO but that's because I'm a Cards fan who just witnessed his team win ten games in the NFC Best.

When any GM/FO hits on 100% of their picks it will be the 1st time.

Why I feel good about Deone's chances is his attitude that comes through on his interviews.

Denny Green came pretty close in 2004. Best Arizona Cardinal draft ever. 4 guys still starting in the NFL last season. 3 have been to the pro bowl and the 4th has been one of the best LBs in the NFL. Nick Leckey played 7 years in the NFL and Stepanovich started 30 games at Center in his 3 years in the AZ.

2010 wasn't far off either with 6 of the 7 picks starting games in the NFL in 2012 and 5 of 7 in 2013. Only bust was 6th round pick Jorrick Calvin. Well of course there was Double Dunce but even he was starting QB during most of the Cards 7-2 run 2011.
 
Last edited:

az jam

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 6, 2004
Posts
12,989
Reaction score
5,215
Location
Scottsdale, AZ
Good stuff Cbus. Jacksonville had a solid draft this year. They got some play makers in QB Bortles and Wrs Lee & Robinson.
 

Dougmo

Veteran
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Posts
156
Reaction score
62
For what it's worth - I have a connection that works for Denver scouting and they had a late 2nd/early 3rd round grade on Buchannon.
He didn't think it was a horrible pick, just a bit early. He did acknowledge that he may be a better fit in the Cardinals scheme, thus rated higher, then he would have been in the Bronco's.
I think it was an ok pick in an area of need but I don't think it was a great value.

Overall, I like what we did but I don't feel we got any steals, value-wise.
I do think we swung for the fences a bit more then normal.
If we hit on 3, we're golden!
 

BW52

Registered
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
5,043
Reaction score
1,904
Location
crestwood,Ky
:doi:
I think he was overall pretty positive on the cards draft but way to be defensive. Would you feel better if I thought all 6 cards picks were great and I bet all make at least 2 all-pro teams.

people are too sensitive around here. You know what, Deonee Bucannon was the freakin steal of the draft. I can't believe the cards could trade back and still get him. Good thing they didn't trade back to 30 because he was definitely gone by then.

You act like keim is some kind of guru. He had a 3rd rounder with as many off field issues as has been in the draft since Lawrence Phillips work out, so far, and got great production out of Ellington. What else did he get out of his 1st draft to give everyone so much hope?

Cooper , minter,, okafor , swope, and watford haven't played 20 downs combined yet Keim is almighty. Btw, this guy loved the cooper pick last year but being from Jax it means Cooper is a bust.



Keim is still learning and nobody said he was perfect.Swope turned out to be a bad pick because of health issues.Jury is still out on Okafor (injury) Minter (lost spot to Dansby a experienced veteran) DC Jefferson (poor pick) .
You act like SK is the village idiot because you don`t like his picks.You have whined about the draft in most of your comments and it does get tiresome reading your "woulda shoulda coulda picked " nonsense .
 

BigRedRage

Reckless
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Posts
48,274
Reaction score
12,525
Location
SE valley
lets not shoot the messenger. I for one like to hear what his scout friend thinks. its entertaining information.
 

Buckybird

Hoist the Lombardi Trophy
Joined
Nov 11, 2002
Posts
25,281
Reaction score
6,230
Location
Dallas, TX
It just got old hearing the complaining.No big deal.

I think you're off base here.I don't think he was complaining from the way I read it. And even if he was it's his opinion, just like everyone on this board has one. Scouts & GMs are wrong as well as fans & then right vice versa! I was wrong about Leinart & Bowles, but I was also right about Levi & Skelton, etc.

It's a message board & everyone's gonna have an opinion right or wrong, nothing personal. Just because you don't like someone's opinion isn't cause for throwing darts. Too many, including me at times take the difference of opinion as an act of murder at times. Were Cards fans & should debate our opinions & take it less personal at times. There's a lot of knowledge on this board IMO
 
Last edited:

BW52

Registered
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
5,043
Reaction score
1,904
Location
crestwood,Ky
I think you're off base here.I don't think he was complaining from the way I read it. And even if he was it's his opinion, just like everyone on this board has one. Scouts & GMs are wrong as well as fans & then right vice versa! I was wrong about Leinart & Bowles, but I was also right about Levi & Skelton, etc.

It's a message board & everyone's gonna have an opinion right or wrong, nothing personal. Just because you don't like someone's opinion isn't cause for throwing darts. Too many, including me at times take the difference of opinion as an act of murder at times. Were Cards fans & should debate our opinions & take it less personal at times. There's a lot of knowledge on this board IMO

Too many do throw verbal darts.I have I admit.Could be I just read some snarkiness into the comment.My bad.
 

DoTheDew

Registered
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Posts
2,967
Reaction score
0
It's interesting that he loves the Brown pick when Brown was rated 5th-6th round on most mocks, while Buchanon who was rated 2nd-3rd was considered a 4th rounder by them.

It just goes to show how outside of the top 10-20 picks in the draft there's a wide margin of error in player rankings which in turn means that the word "reach" is pretty meaningless.
 

Big Deal

Hall of Famer
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Posts
1,633
Reaction score
81
You do realize the cards had rod graves running their draft for years and that's who keim learned from.

Just saying, it's pretty funny for a cards fan to be saying consider the source and act like keim/cards are beyond reproach.

I am not saying they are beyond reproach, just that I don't give a damn what a Jacksonville scout has to say about our draft. I will route for the players we drafted and hope they become starters/role players for this team for many years. I am excited to see DCanon blow up some plays and add a TON to this defense. I can't wait to see him blow up harvin over the middle or shut down gore.

If there is one team the Cards can look down on from a draft point of view it is certainly Jacksonville, they have the power to blow up sure fire picks somehow. Also, there is no way that Blackmon has Megatron talent sir, no one but Megatron has that talent, perhaps they overvalued him.

Lets put it this way. If this were a New England Patriot board and some poster kept babbling on about his Cardinals scout buddy bashing their draft, I'm sure he would be taken with the same grain of salt.
 

THESMEL

Smushdown! Take it like a fan!
Joined
May 21, 2010
Posts
5,963
Reaction score
1,154
Location
Vernon
hmm

I don't know if he is a 4th rounder but he was not BPA at 20 or 27! We targeted a need and reached pretty far for it- and I don't agree with that at ALL! Even last year we went BPA at Guard with Cooper!

I lost confidence in BASK setting our board, They had Bucannon targeted there and dropped 7 knowing they could still get him- You THINK! Martin is a great pick up with the extra pick and should not have been graded much different than Bucannon IMO.

John Brown is a pet projected to go rounds later - Logan Thomas was undraftable on most boards.

We got boinged for the buck- Door number two every pick. Martin is the only guy we might have stole after he was expected to be drafted.

Now I don't think the mainstream media is correct- but they are not usually a round off on a 1st rounder or several rounds off on a 3rd or a 4th! If Mel Kiper would have made our picks- we could be a better team right now! Maybe?

we left a lot of talent on the boards, and took a lot of risk. freakin again, I thought we grew out of that with Keim.


Ok but is he the main guy on our staff????

This has already been posted. I don't think there's a need to over Jacksonville's recent draft history again.

The Bucannon pick has gotten nothing but love and they had a 4th round grade on him, seriously? Forget the fact he's bigger AND faster than Clinton-Dix and Pryor but he's a 4th rounder. I think that speaks more to Jacksonville than it does Bucannon.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Posts
10,462
Reaction score
7,416
Location
Chandler
I for one appreciate your input Cbus. Keep up with the info please & your opinions. I don't always agree with everyone but that's what makes us human beings. :thumbup:
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,154
Reaction score
6,607
I don't know if he is a 4th rounder but he was not BPA at 20 or 27! We targeted a need and reached pretty far for it- and I don't agree with that at ALL! Even last year we went BPA at Guard with Cooper!

I lost confidence in BASK setting our board, They had Bucannon targeted there and dropped 7 knowing they could still get him- You THINK! Martin is a great pick up with the extra pick and should not have been graded much different than Bucannon IMO.

John Brown is a pet projected to go rounds later - Logan Thomas was undraftable on most boards.

We got boinged for the buck- Door number two every pick. Martin is the only guy we might have stole after he was expected to be drafted.

Now I don't think the mainstream media is correct- but they are not usually a round off on a 1st rounder or several rounds off on a 3rd or a 4th! If Mel Kiper would have made our picks- we could be a better team right now! Maybe?

we left a lot of talent on the boards, and took a lot of risk. freakin again, I thought we grew out of that with Keim.
I think what you are missing is that this draft being so deep makes it more likely to draft for need because there are so many players that are going to be rated very closely on their board. So when their turn to pick comes up they would have likely had quite a few players that they graded out very closely together and thus they went with the guy that filled a need. I think that is what happened with a lot of the picks in this draft.

Also considering the depth of this draft I see that as making it even more likely that the "pundits" would be wrong more often because of the large lumps of players that were so closely rated. I would venture to guess that if we looked at most of the teams drafts and went back and compared the players they picked to a lot of the mock drafts and 120 boards of the "experts" you would see quite a bit of "reaches" for need among all the teams.
 

THESMEL

Smushdown! Take it like a fan!
Joined
May 21, 2010
Posts
5,963
Reaction score
1,154
Location
Vernon
thanks

thanks, I am missing that, I am stuck in the old days where safety and TE are not premium players and I know pass rushers were depleted early and we got a nice pick up with value in Martin. He is still a project and risky.

We have tried kept many TE's and DB's the last few years. When was the last premium OLB drafted? I mean Abrahms is great running on fumes, Leinart was in 06 that is 8 years ago and all the early QB's available have been crap since? I mean Denny's drafts are still stars all over the NFL.

I just don't agree with taking high risk Luxury picks when you filled holes in FA and have a solid team with 10 wins, You take low risk depth building picks and build a pipeline of talent like the rest of the NFCW drafted.

1999 we changed course - 2011 had 50+ new faces in camp, The NFCW is very good because they were very bad teams and high draft picks for many years. Many teams have great teams for many years, they don't get and stay there drafting like the Cards do.

our record of developing and keeping players aint great.








I think what you are missing is that this draft being so deep makes it more likely to draft for need because there are so many players that are going to be rated very closely on their board. So when their turn to pick comes up they would have likely had quite a few players that they graded out very closely together and thus they went with the guy that filled a need. I think that is what happened with a lot of the picks in this draft.

Also considering the depth of this draft I see that as making it even more likely that the "pundits" would be wrong more often because of the large lumps of players that were so closely rated. I would venture to guess that if we looked at most of the teams drafts and went back and compared the players they picked to a lot of the mock drafts and 120 boards of the "experts" you would see quite a bit of "reaches" for need among all the teams.
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
21,063
Reaction score
13,835
thanks, I am missing that, I am stuck in the old days where safety and TE are not premium players and I know pass rushers were depleted early and we got a nice pick up with value in Martin. He is still a project and risky.

We have tried kept many TE's and DB's the last few years. When was the last premium OLB drafted? I mean Abrahms is great running on fumes, Leinart was in 06 that is 8 years ago and all the early QB's available have been crap since? I mean Denny's drafts are still stars all over the NFL.

I just don't agree with taking high risk Luxury picks when you filled holes in FA and have a solid team with 10 wins, You take low risk depth building picks and build a pipeline of talent like the rest of the NFCW drafted.

1999 we changed course - 2011 had 50+ new faces in camp, The NFCW is very good because they were very bad teams and high draft picks for many years. Many teams have great teams for many years, they don't get and stay there drafting like the Cards do.

our record of developing and keeping players aint great.

So if you dislike Bucannon so much who are you suggesting that we drafted instead. Barr and Shazier were off the board the one QB the cardinals have come out and said they liked Bortels was off the board. Dee Ford? Undersized and coming into the league with a bad back no thank you. The back scares me. I think Bucannon is the best of the bunch he bigger and faster than either Clinton-Dix or Pryor
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,154
Reaction score
6,607
thanks, I am missing that, I am stuck in the old days where safety and TE are not premium players and I know pass rushers were depleted early and we got a nice pick up with value in Martin. He is still a project and risky.

We have tried kept many TE's and DB's the last few years. When was the last premium OLB drafted? I mean Abrahms is great running on fumes, Leinart was in 06 that is 8 years ago and all the early QB's available have been crap since? I mean Denny's drafts are still stars all over the NFL.

I just don't agree with taking high risk Luxury picks when you filled holes in FA and have a solid team with 10 wins, You take low risk depth building picks and build a pipeline of talent like the rest of the NFCW drafted.

1999 we changed course - 2011 had 50+ new faces in camp, The NFCW is very good because they were very bad teams and high draft picks for many years. Many teams have great teams for many years, they don't get and stay there drafting like the Cards do.

our record of developing and keeping players aint great.
You're welcome. :D

2004 NFL draft was very good, but it didn't hurt to have the 3rd (Fitz) and 33rd (Dansby, Not a "premium" position) overall picks. 2005 and 2006 NFL drafts combined netted us Antrel Rolle with the 8th pick (2005), but not much of anyone else worth noting.
 
Last edited:

Southpaw

Provocateur aka Wallyburger
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2003
Posts
39,818
Reaction score
3,410
Location
The urban swamp
:doi:
I think he was overall pretty positive on the cards draft but way to be defensive. Would you feel better if I thought all 6 cards picks were great and I bet all make at least 2 all-pro teams.

people are too sensitive around here. You know what, Deonee Bucannon was the freakin steal of the draft. I can't believe the cards could trade back and still get him. Good thing they didn't trade back to 30 because he was definitely gone by then.

You act like keim is some kind of guru. He had a 3rd rounder with as many off field issues as has been in the draft since Lawrence Phillips work out, so far, and got great production out of Ellington. What else did he get out of his 1st draft to give everyone so much hope?

Cooper , minter,, okafor , swope, and watford haven't played 20 downs combined yet Keim is almighty. Btw, this guy loved the cooper pick last year but being from Jax it means Cooper is a bust.

:yeahthat:

Thanks for the info. I have similar thoughts. A herd of 2.
 

THESMEL

Smushdown! Take it like a fan!
Joined
May 21, 2010
Posts
5,963
Reaction score
1,154
Location
Vernon
Finito

I would have liked Marcus Smith at 20 or Demarcus Lawrence at 27 And I would have took Hyde or Hill at RB in the 2nd, Now the Niners have Gore's replacement and we are the punchee instead of the puncher on offense.

Bucannon hits like a mule but the doubts are his rigid hips and fluidity in coverage, He has to cover Vernon Davis! it is a big fat maybe if he can! but I am damn sure Marcus or Demarkus above would fill a premium need we have avoided for years at OLB/DE.

As far as a Blocking TE over a top tier RB - He is a monster in pass protection but Dwyer is anything but proven as a starting back in the NFL. I trust but VERIFY! We have a steal in Ellington but expand his role now- He aint no pounder.

We will see how it works out, but
 
Last edited:

THESMEL

Smushdown! Take it like a fan!
Joined
May 21, 2010
Posts
5,963
Reaction score
1,154
Location
Vernon
unsung

Now Now - Hayes and AW was here, But the SB Roster had some talent that Cards fans seem to hate on, Deuce and Sendlein were important! Antonio Smith, Levi was taken first overall for Grimm and like it or not he was a SB tackle on the most passinginest team in history! Same in 09 with Beanie instead of Edge - WE passed our selves to death with 10 runs in each of our play off losses! compare it to the wins - regular season too.

Sorry I just think there was more to it than Kurt. Who retired early after the Saints playoff bounty game- But whiz gave them every opportunity by passing every down.

And what the hell happened to our OC? Mike Miller and QB coach Miller? I try to stay off the topics, cause it pisses me off, and then I piss off others. Pissenhunt went to the Chargers and ran the ball- like he did with the steelers!
lead in carries!

just forgot to run the ball in Arizona, BASK want to throw every down too- late round running backs and 2 steeler cast offs so far.


You're welcome. :D

2004 NFL draft was very good, but it didn't hurt to have the 3rd (Fitz) and 33rd (Dansby, Not a "premium" position) overall picks. 2005 and 2006 NFL drafts combined netted us Antrel Rolle with the 8th pick (2005), but not much of anyone else worth noting.
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
21,063
Reaction score
13,835
Finito

I would have liked Marcus Smith at 20 or Demarcus Lawrence at 27 And I would have took Hyde or Hill at RB in the 2nd, Now the Niners have Gore's replacement and we are the punchee instead of the puncher on offense.

Bucannon hits like a mule but the doubts are his rigid hips and fluidity in coverage, He has to cover Vernon Davis! it is a big fat maybe if he can! but I am damn sure Marcus or Demarkus above would fill a premium need we have avoided for years at OLB/DE.

As far as a Blocking TE over a top tier RB - He is a monster in pass protection but Dwyer is anything but proven as a starting back in the NFL. I trust but VERIFY! We have a steal in Ellington but expand his role now- He aint no pounder.

We will see how it works out, but



See now I think your just being negative because the guys you named. Your drafting a pass rusher just to draft one. When I look at Barr I see a freak athlete who has world's of potential, I see Shazier jumping off the screen going side line to side line, Dee Ford gets off the ball as fast as anyone I've ever seen but I still wouldn't have drafted him because of his back. Neither one of the guys you mentioned do anything for me. Are they better than Alex Okafor ? I don't think so.

I don't think much of Hyde either. Your acting like we drafted CJ Fedorwitz in the second round Niklas can catch and I think he's going to be a much greater weapon than Hyde will ever be.

Bucannon can't cover that's all in hearing but the damn guy has more INT's than Clinton-Dix or Pryor. I tell you what you put Bucannon on Alabama and Clinton-Dix on Washington state and Bucannon goes top then and Clinton-Dix might sneak into the first round. They've said over and over don't be surprised to see Cromartie on a big time tight

i'm sorry I just don't see any of the guys you mentioned being better than the guys we picked. I don't think anyone here is jumping up and down we didn't pick Marcus Smith
 
Top