One man's opinion

[ChiCard]

Everyone who's a Cards fan can have their own perspective on this draft. We can even disagree as to how effective these players may be in the future. That remanins to be seen, and in fact will be. We can even argue about whether or not these people were really first round picks. For what it's worth I think a pick is a first rounder if the team that takes him says he is. If they think the guy is that good and want him no matter what, Mel Kiper saying the guy is or is not a good selection won't turn him into an all-pro. While I'll withhold my judgement until I see them play, I'm skeptical as to their value. I'm not such a "homer" as to say "well if we took him he's gotta be great" but there's little we can do now but watch and wait. But as a fan what burns my ass if the trade itself. We got screwed when you look at what other picks went for. That's what eats at me. Other teams got extra picks in this draft and the next and we got nothing more then moving from 37 to 18 and lost a pick in the process. I just can't let that go. The ineptitude of thier managment team. I can accept they didn't want Suggs and wouldn't have taken him. What I can't aqccept is that if they were going to manuver why did they let the Eagles jump up and get McDugal if that's who they wanted? If you're going to be bold, be bold. They acted like the school yard bully who's bluff was called. They pulled the trigger and then let circumstances overwhelm them. Someone posted we got 4 second round picks. That might be the true assessment of this draft. Each guy may be a star, I doubt it, but you never know. Yesterday's New York Post said it best. As they commented about each selection in turn with a paragraph about their attributes they summed up the Cards in one brief senetence. It said: "Now you know why they're the worst franchise in all professional sports"

 

[Tangodnzr]

This is amazing.
It seems like some of you need to go back to remedial bonehead math.

The Cards didn't "lose" any pick.
Through 4 rounds they got 4 picks.
Instead of 1,2,3,4...
they got 1,1,2,3.....

Learn to count.
So the net result is: a first round pick for a 4th and moving down 17 slots in round 2 and 11 in the first.

Kibitz all you want about whether or not you liked who the picks were. But considering the Cards were the one's wanting this deal, that...on the surface doesn't look so bad to me. New Orleans had the sellers advantage here. If it would have been them that wanted the trade then that would have put a whole different perspective on it.

Also.....Aeneas Williams was drafted in the third round in 1990.
Was it pick #65?, #76. or #89?
And does it matter?

They also took another CB, Dexter Davis in the 4th round.
Both were drafted to try to challenge Cedrick Mack.
One could possibly be a hall of famer, the other was a nobody.

I think some of you are just plain getting a little too nit picky.

 

[conraddobler]

I'll have to agree with Tango on this.

Heck I never heard of Pace before the draft didn't know who he was and was shocked like the rest of you.

I since read up on him and he has as much potential as Suggs does at the NFL level.

His measureables are better his production was not in the same ballpark. NFL sacks are much different than college sacks and time is the onlly thing that will prove out the move one way or another.

The trade itself was slightly in NO favor by methods most people use to evalute pick values. It wasn't that bad.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Originally posted by ChiCard
But as a fan what burns my ass if the trade itself. We got screwed when you look at what other picks went for. That's what eats at me. Other teams got extra picks in this draft and the next and we got nothing more then moving from 37 to 18 and lost a pick in the process. I just can't let that go. The ineptitude of thier managment team.

So you're saying you're upset because we got 17 and 18 instead of 6, 54, and 182 or whatever the fourth round pick was? I urge you to reconsider. I believe you are a veteran of enough nfl seasons to know that the draft is only part of the equation. and the trade, while perhaps slightly questionable, was not really that bad.


[/B][/QUOTE] Yesterday's New York Post said it best. As they commented about each selection in turn with a paragraph about their attributes they summed up the Cards in one brief senetence. It said: "Now you know why they're the worst franchise in all professional sports" [/B][/QUOTE]

who gives a you-know-what about what this rag says? We are cardinals fans, we should be immune to the ridicule of others by now.

 

[AZCB34]

Here is why the trade was bad IMO. It is because Graves never wanted to swap 2nd round picks. He has said so on several occasions. He wanted to trade down so badly that he did something he didn't want to to make that happen. Sure you have to compromise at times but I think he got pushed into this out of draft day pressures and had he held out long enough he may have been able to keep that early 2nd. Just an opinion on my part. Maybe he was petrified of not being able to trade down that he simply didn't care about the 2nd round swap when all was said and done. Too bad one of their top 3 wasn;t available though. I think it would have been more likely the Cards had gotten an impact player...but it is a crap shoot as has been said 1,000,000 times

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by AZCB34
Here is why the trade was bad IMO. It is because Graves never wanted to swap 2nd round picks. He has said so on several occasions. He wanted to trade down so badly that he did something he didn't want to to make that happen. Sure you have to compromise at times but I think he got pushed into this out of draft day pressures and had he held out long enough he may have been able to keep that early 2nd. Just an opinion on my part. Maybe he was petrified of not being able to trade down that he simply didn't care about the 2nd round swap when all was said and done. Too bad one of their top 3 wasn;t available though. I think it would have been more likely the Cards had gotten an impact player...but it is a crap shoot as has been said 1,000,000 times

But moving down in the second didn't hurt us at all. We got Boldin, and I really think that he is a pretty darn good player.

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
But moving down in the second didn't hurt us at all. We got Boldin, and I really think that he is a pretty darn good player.

Not having a 4th hurt us. Well I guess the Cards got to sleep in a little.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
But moving down in the second didn't hurt us at all. We got Boldin, and I really think that he is a pretty darn good player.

But you don't know that when the deal is being made. They had someone in their mind at 37 (maybe Boldin...who knows) but when the deal was being made they had NO real idea who may be there.

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by AZCB34
But you don't know that when the deal is being made. They had someone in their mind at 37 (maybe Boldin...who knows) but when the deal was being made they had NO real idea who may be there.

Actually on KDUS they said that at 18 they thought about taking Taylor Jacobs right after Johnson. So I would assume that at 37 they would have taken Taylor Jacobs.

 

[conraddobler]

The way we will have to evalute the trade in later years is that we got both Johnson and a DE earlier than if we had tried to go Suggs then Johnson...

Most likely Johnson dosen't last til 37.

However you slice it though I like who we got with the first 4 picks with Pace being the most questionable pick of the bunch.

Who the heck cares doing the safe thing and drafting who we were supposed to hasn't gotten us anywhere either.

Graves made a tactical error he will learn I wish people would understand that stuff happens.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235243

Here is a guy better than Suggs put on a terrible team here is what numbers he has put out.

He was a higher pick than Suggs and it just proves if you are an awful team you need more players in higher rounds not just one stud.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by EndZone
Not having a 4th hurt us. Well I guess the Cards got to sleep in a little.

Once again I will say......read my reply to Chicards post. The Cards didn't LOSE a 4th round pick.....they used that pick to pick #18 in the first round.

 

[EndZone]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Once again I will say......read my reply to Chicards post. The Cards didn't LOSE a 4th round pick.....they used that pick to pick #18 in the first round.

And once again look at what I said. The Bears didn't have to swap 2nds and give a fourth. IN FACT they GOT AN EXTRA 4TH ROUND PICK! The Cards gave too much.

 

[JeffGollin]

Another Person's Opinion

So you're saying you're upset because we got 17 and 18 instead of 6, 54, and 182 or whatever the fourth round pick was?
We got 17, 18, 54 and 70 instead of 6, 37, 70 and 102.

I hated the trade for several reasons:

- We passed up what looked to be a sure-fire sackmaster who could help fill our biggest need.

- We moved down too far. (New England wanted to trade up. At least they had a #13, and I doubt they'd fleece us any more than NO did - probably less)

- We wound up reaching at #18.

- Swapping our #37 for a #54 added insult to injury.

- Throwing in our #102 was "generous" to say the least.

I also think we became overly hysterical about our WR situation. While it's thrilling to have B Johnson, Boldin, Foster and then maybe Robinson, I think McAddley, Gilmore and Kasper (all young receivers) are far better than they're being given credit for. I would have been happy drafting either Johnson or Boldin but not necessarily both.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Re: Another Person's Opinion

Originally posted by JeffGollin
So you're saying you're upset because we got 17 and 18 instead of 6, 54, and 182 or whatever the fourth round pick was?
We got 17, 18, 54 and 70 instead of 6, 37, 70 and 102.

- We passed up what looked to be a sure-fire sackmaster who could help fill our biggest need.



I also think we became overly hysterical about our WR situation. While it's thrilling to have B Johnson, Boldin, Foster and then maybe Robinson, I think McAddley, Gilmore and Kasper (all young receivers) are far better than they're being given credit for. I would have been happy drafting either Johnson or Boldin but not necessarily both.

thank you for correcting me sir. I apologize for for my error.

however,

I disagree with the assessment of suggs as a "surefire sackmaster".

and, I would take johnson, boldin and foster on opening day over mcaddley, gilmore and kasper in a heartbeat.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Ok, it's been two days since the Cardinals first day draft. I've slept on it, and I can now say "Calvin Pace" without getting nauseous. Although I continue to shake my head when I say it!

I've spent my entire day so far defending the Cardinals draft here at work. I really wanted to be able to point to certain holes on the team as having been addressed, but instead I have had to resort to mocking their team's draft. Not a good day so far, but we've all been there before, and we'll more than likely be there again.

3 of our 4 first day picks were solid. Johnson, Boldin, and Hayes will all contribute significantly within a couple of years. When I think of Pace in that mind-set, I'm ok with the pick. When I think of Pace as being a guy who walks in, takes a starting job, and wow's everyone with his production (ala Simeon "red beans and" Rice), I get sick again.

Honestly, I wanted to see Suggs play here. That's my own personal demon that I will have to get over.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Thank god that scenario didint play out with taking Jacobs!. Spurrier is an idiot for having a U of Florida alumni gatheirng at Redskins headquarters. Jacobs will be a bust just like all other FL WR's

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Once again I will say......read my reply to Chicards post. The Cards didn't LOSE a 4th round pick.....they used that pick to pick #18 in the first round.

AND IF YOU KNEW A DAMN THING ABOUT FOOTBALL, WHICH YOU DON'T, YOU'D UNDERSTAND THAT TEAMS USUALLY END UP WITH MORE PICKS THAN THEY TRADED WHEN THEY MOVE DOWN.

UNLESS OF COURSE THEY'RE RANK AMATEURS LIKE GRAVES.

 

[ChiCard]

Re: Re: One man's opinion

Originally posted by Crimson Warrior
So you're saying you're upset because we got 17 and 18 instead of 6, 54, and 182 or whatever the fourth round pick was? I urge you to reconsider. I believe you are a veteran of enough nfl seasons to know that the draft is only part of the equation. and the trade, while perhaps slightly questionable, was not really that bad.


That's not what i'm saying at all. What I said was we didn't get ENOUGH for what we did. How was it that even later in the round Miami was forced to give up next years #1 to move 2 spots? We tried to make a statement and failed. That's my point. The number of picks is the issue. You can talk all day lone about 17 & 18 & 54 are better or worse then #6 & #37. The issue is we gained very little in the swap and then at the crucial moment lost our nerve and let another team get the guy we really wanted and then (his words) settlede for Pace. I'm talking about a lack of intiative and courage. We're not gonna fill the stadium that way. Was I the onl one who saw Dave McGinnis expression whn he went on ESPN to explain those moves?

 

[Ed B]

The Bears traded #4 for #13, #22, <b>and</b> a fourth rounder.

We traded 3 picks for 3. They traded one for 3. Talk about needing to go back to "remedial bonehead math".

 

[Northern Card]

That the CARDS management decided not to pay #6 money to a "situational" pass rusher does not bother me in the slightest.

Many in the days leading up discounted his relatively slow 40, but, as was pointed out by one analyst during the Draft Day telecast, his 10 was slow... his 20, his 30 - and finally, his 40.

Some seem to have images of a Rice clone when they talk about this guy, and yet - there is little tangible evidence that he has that type of ability. If he did, if he had those measureables, he would have been selected in the top 3 or 4. As such, it was not simply the CARDS who had reservations, it was every team up to pick 10.

Everything I've read about Pace seems to indicate that he could become a solid, every down type of end. Sounds fine to me, and the DE rotation (sans Burke) looks a lot better as of Saturday.

 

[Ed B]

Originally posted by Northern Card
That the CARDS management decided not to pay #6 money to a "situational" pass rusher does not bother me in the slightest.

Many in the days leading up discounted his relatively slow 40, but, as was pointed out by one analyst during the Draft Day telecast, his 10 was slow... his 20, his 30 - and finally, his 40.

Some seem to have images of a Rice clone when they talk about this guy, and yet - there is little tangible evidence that he has that type of ability. If he did, if he had those measureables, he would have been selected in the top 3 or 4. As such, it was not simply the CARDS who had reservations, it was every team up to pick 10.

Everything I've read about Pace seems to indicate that he could become a solid, every down type of end. Sounds fine to me, and the DE rotation (sans Burke) looks a lot better as of Saturday.

Sure, Pace might be OK.

That will never change how we got ripped off in this trade.

 

[ChiCard]

Originally posted by Northern Card
That the CARDS management decided not to pay #6 money to a "situational" pass rusher does not bother me in the slightest.

Many in the days leading up discounted his relatively slow 40, but, as was pointed out by one analyst during the Draft Day telecast, his 10 was slow... his 20, his 30 - and finally, his 40.

Some seem to have images of a Rice clone when they talk about this guy, and yet - there is little tangible evidence that he has that type of ability. If he did, if he had those measureables, he would have been selected in the top 3 or 4. As such, it was not simply the CARDS who had reservations, it was every team up to pick 10.

Everything I've read about Pace seems to indicate that he could become a solid, every down type of end. Sounds fine to me, and the DE rotation (sans Burke) looks a lot better as of Saturday.

I like your thinking on the Board Northern but please read my original post again. It isn't about Suggs at all. It's about getting weak in the knees when the only thing that'll shake up this franchise is something dramatic. I hope Pace becomes the greatest DE ever. That doesn't make it any less a fact that a even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[CardLogic]

Disregard for the moment the players selected (personally I think the actual talent the Cards got is not bad, however) here is the Draft Picks Trade with New Orleans in a nutshell:

1st pick Was # 6 Got # 17 Down 11 slots
2nd pick Was # 37 Got # 18 Up 19 slots
3rd pick Was # 70 Got # 54 Up 16 slots
4th pick Was # 102 Got # 70 Up 32 slots



I've got to admit, when I started this post it was to point out how bad a trade this was for the Cardinals (and how they managed to screw up once again), but looking at it in these terms (not talking talent) the trade doesn't look bad!

Yes they moved down in the first round, but improved their position for the next three picks.

Now: Is this a trade you would make?

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Originally posted by Ed B
Sure, Pace might be OK.

That will never change how we got ripped off in this trade.

Word!

 

[RedStorm]

Originally posted by Cardinals.Ken
Word!

Graves got schooled....Welcome to the NFL.