One more move...what's BC up to?

[F-Dog]

Remember that the Suns still need to add a rotation player at C, and all they have left to offer is the proverbial 'coke and a smile'.

Huh? The Suns do have players with trade value on their roster.

I'm talking about a free agent, though.

 

[elindholm]

I'm talking about a free agent, though.

Yeah, but we're not.

 

[George O'Brien]

I think it was Duffy (an agent) that used the term "shocking", but I have no guess what is meant.

Clearly a lot of things were on hold while the Clippers were stalling, but now the situation is pretty clear. If we are talking trades, I think the situation is as follows:

1. The only need is at center. I would think this would go without saying, but somehow names like Miles come up for no particularly good reason.

2. The Suns are not going to trade for "project" who cannot immediately contribute.

3. The Suns are very unlikely to trade the following (assuming Duncan is not being offered, etc):

Stoudemire
Nash
Marion
Johnson
Richardson
Barbosa
Lampe

4. The Suns are fairly unlikely to trade except for a starting quality center

Carbakapa
Voskuhl
Vroman

5. The Suns would prefer to trade using

Eisley
Jacobsen
Vujanic
Chicago pick

My guess is that the only way the Suns can pull off a "shocking" deal would be if they did a multiteam deal and were willing to take on some extra years of salary.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think it was Duffy (an agent) that used the term "shocking", but I have no guess what is meant.

Clearly a lot of things were on hold while the Clippers were stalling, but now the situation is pretty clear. If we are talking trades, I think the situation is as follows:

1. The only need is at center. I would think this would go without saying, but somehow names like Miles come up for no particularly good reason.

2. The Suns are not going to trade for "project" who cannot immediately contribute.

3. The Suns are very unlikely to trade the following (assuming Duncan is not being offered, etc):

Stoudemire
Nash
Marion
Johnson
Richardson
Barbosa
Lampe

4. The Suns are fairly unlikely to trade except for a starting quality center

Carbakapa
Voskuhl
Vroman

5. The Suns would prefer to trade using

Eisley
Jacobsen
Vujanic
Chicago pick

My guess is that the only way the Suns can pull off a "shocking" deal would be if they did a multiteam deal and were willing to take on some extra years of salary.

Sorry George - but the above seems like homerist fantasy land - I think the Suns would give up Marion or JJ in a heartbeat if it meant getting a legit C in here and this move insures that there would be little drop off. I don't see it happening although as it seems that it would be ou of the ordinary for a small to be traded for a big - although - is that really true? Let's look at some of the BIGS - either Power Forward's or Centers who have been traded over the years and what was gotten in return:

Larry Nance - All-Star PF - traded for KJ, Mark West and TC - is that right - centerpiece of the deal though was KJ - Small for a big.

Charles Barkely - Best PF in the game - traded for Horny, Lang and Perry - cornerstone of the deal was obviously Horny - small for a big again.

Shaq - cornerstone was Odom - Small for a big.

McDyess (first trade to the Suns) - wazs this part of the htree way - where Kemp went to Cleveland and Person went to (hell I don't even know where) - this one probably doesn't belong in here - especially since I can't remember who the hell was involved in the trade.

Rasheed - this was big package with smalls and bigs - especially Ratliff - so this is a big for big.

Divac for draft rights to Kobe Bryant - small for a big - could make argument that they were clearing cap space as well for Shaq - so this might not fit.

But what I'm getting at is this Small for a Big myth of it never happening is just that - a Myth -- if there's someone out there who's gonna make trouble -like most of the Bigs up above - teams will trade those guys for best available package - period. I think we have some pretty good bargaining chips to deal with right now - but I don't know which legit Bigs are gonna be troublemakers enough to warrant a trade to us with what we have.

Regardless - the summer will continue to be inetresting - I don't know if we're done or not - and if we are - I'm cool with that. Next year's team should be something like the 1988 squad was and hell all that team did was get to the Conference Finals two years in a row. And if there is more on the way - and this team does somehow get an impact defensive player at C - watch out, we may just be looking at titles a year or two earlier than any of us expected.


I still can't believe Chap started his own board - does that seem really weird to any of you guys?

 

[JCSunsfan]

And centers (or c/f's) around the league that fit the bill (defense, rebounding) are (availability aside). This list is not a ranking, order is irrelevant. I am just trying to throw out every conceivable possibility.

Shaq
Dampier
Camby*
Duncan
J. Oneal
Dalembert
Magliore
Okafor
Ratliff
Ostertag*
Chandler
J. White
Nene
Foyle*
Pryz
Traylor

*cannot be traded until December.

On that list, there are those that are just not possible to obtain: Shaq, Camby, Duncan, J O Neal, Ostertag, Foyle.

There are those that, would be only remote chances to obtain--either because their teams will hang on to them, or the Suns do not have the cap space to sign them: Dampier, Magliore, Dalembert, Okafor.

There might be a glimmer of hope: Ratliff, Chandler, Jahidi, Nene.

Free agent vet min candidates: Pryz, Traylor

Okafor would be a great pickup, but there is no way. Chandler has been the subject of trade rumors, but Chicago says they want to keep him. Chandler would be fantastic with this team. Pryz, is a cheaper version of Chander. Traylor--gotta be. I don't see the point in Scott Wil and I don't really see a possible "shocker" here unless we trade Marion--even then it would be hard.

 

[George O'Brien]

This charge of "homerism" is just bull. No one is going to avoid trading anyone but Amare for a high quality center. But no one has come up with a proposal that would actually work. The irony is that the guys people want to trade: Marion and Johnson, are too expensive or too inexpensive.

Trading Marion means trading for a big man worth $11.5 million. You can't do it for Dampier because Dampier isn't worth that much. The only center that MIGHT be available is Zydrunas Ilgauskas at $14.6 million, but the Cavs need a quality center in return.

If you do it for a cheap guy, it means taking back some terrible contract and they turning around and paying a huge amount to the cheap guy when his contract runs out. (See New York Knicks for details).

Trading JJ is the opposite problem. He is only makes $2.4 million. How many good centers are there for $2.4 million? Why would those teams trade usch a guy for a guard?

In the end, the poposed deals end up being ones where the Suns give up quality players for stiffs or pure fantasies. Defending this nonsense by saying that we are just "homers" ignores these core problems.

 

[Bada0Bing]

I would trade both Marion and JJ for Dalembert and a bad contract. We aren't going to win the championship until we fill the 5. Now that we have Q, JJ is very expendable. I say trade JJ now, while his value is high.

 

[Cheesebeef]

sheesh - struck a nerve did I George? Sorry bout that - but the way you phrased your last post made it seem like Marion/JJ were untouchable based on their play - not their salaries - especially in light of the only way the first tiered players would be used in trade would be for Duncan. I agree that most everything we hypothesize about as far as getting a legit C is tough because of matching up salaries, that wasn't my argument. Touchy, touchy, touchy . . .

 

[cly2tw]

If Mashburn never comes back from the injury, Hornets might do the trade:

Magloire, Mashburn, TractorT + Augman (sign and trade) for Marion, Eisley, Jake, Bull's pick.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I would trade both Marion and JJ for Dalembert and a bad contract. We aren't going to win the championship until we fill the 5. Now that we have Q, JJ is very expendable. I say trade JJ now, while his value is high.

The suns wouldn't trade JJ and Marion for TMAC, no way they do it for dalembert. The kid looks like he will be a stud, but he only played well for 2 months.


If you kill depth just to get a good center, you will get screwed. Look at the Lakers the last 2 years. No depth, arguably the most dominant center of all time. Did a lot of good for them huh?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

If Mashburn never comes back from the injury, Hornets might do the trade:

Magloire, Mashburn, TractorT + Augman (sign and trade) for Marion, Eisley, Jake, Bull's pick.

No way in hell they would do that.

If Mash never comes back, his contract is cleared in 2 years and insurance picks up the tab. Tractor isn't under contract, so he would have to be S&T as well

The Hornets will not give up an allstar center, for an overpaid 3. (Especially since Eisley and Mash would clear the same summer, assuming Mash is done).

 

[cepstrum]

The "shocking" thing is from some radio idiot, so I don't put much stock in that, but Colangelo's comment today is a whole different kettle of fish.

The 'radio idiot' that said that was Bill Duffy.

 

[Bada0Bing]

The suns wouldn't trade JJ and Marion for TMAC, no way they do it for dalembert. The kid looks like he will be a stud, but he only played well for 2 months.


If you kill depth just to get a good center, you will get screwed. Look at the Lakers the last 2 years. No depth, arguably the most dominant center of all time. Did a lot of good for them huh?

You don't have too many chances to get a good 5. We already have a good 2 without JJ, and hopefully we could develop a good 3. The only other option I see, is to draft a 5 and hope for the best.

 

[cly2tw]

No way in hell they would do that.

If Mash never comes back, his contract is cleared in 2 years and insurance picks up the tab. Tractor isn't under contract, so he would have to be S&T as well

The Hornets will not give up an allstar center, for an overpaid 3. (Especially since Eisley and Mash would clear the same summer, assuming Mash is done).

By never coming back I meant like Grant Hill or Penny. So, it may cost the team 3 years 30 mil for nothing. In comparison, Eisley's will be a convenient trade bait in one year and he can still play so that they could trade away Wesley if they prefer. So, they gain at least 15 mil swapping Mash for Eisley. This may cover up the amount Marion is overpaid. Jake + Bull's pick are high value asset. But I agree with you that they unlikely will do the big for small trade. Just an idea and wish.

 

[George O'Brien]

sheesh - struck a nerve did I George? Sorry bout that - but the way you phrased your last post made it seem like Marion/JJ were untouchable based on their play - not their salaries - especially in light of the only way the first tiered players would be used in trade would be for Duncan. I agree that most everything we hypothesize about as far as getting a legit C is tough because of matching up salaries, that wasn't my argument. Touchy, touchy, touchy . . .

Duncan is my fantasy.

Seriously, the problem is that really good centers are not on the market and I'm not interested in trading Marion and Johnson for the marginal players that are on the market.

I guess after reading a few thousand posts that start with some variation, "let's trade Marion for center" and being accused of being a homer when I say it won't work, it gets irritating. Marion is not untouchable (I thought the Marion, casey and the Lottery pick for T-Mac was OK), but that's not the how the debate goes down.

Whenever opponents of these trade for stiffs deals shoot them down, the next step is to start tearing appart Shawn and JJ to prove that they aren't worth than the stiffs being sought.

Ironically, the same people will then claim that some team will want to trade their big guy for the same guys they just got through running down.

My list was focused on the kind of backup centers that MIGHT be available. If someone wants go offer a top center for Marion, then go for it. But arguing in abstract about trading away core players for some unnamed center and then accusing opponents of this of being "homers" is insulting.

 

[binkar]

I don't think the suns will move Marion. I kind of hope we don't. I think his style of play is perfect for the team we have right now. I think the only big man I would consider that is somewhat realistic is Magloire but I just dont see it happening.

 

[Bada0Bing]

I'm a sixer fan and I think marion and JJ would work great for them. Marion doesn't need shots and JJ could run the point now that Snow is gone. The Suns could really use Dalembert.

 

[binkar]

Sorry to double post, but when do we have to start thinking about extending Amare? If soon, then someone must go. Marion has money and JJ will want it but we need it for Amare.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Sorry to double post, but when do we have to start thinking about extending Amare? If soon, then someone must go. Marion has money and JJ will want it but we need it for Amare.

What are you talking about? The Suns can go over the cap to sign him since he is their player. BTW, the first summer they can extend him is next summer.

 

[George O'Brien]

The Colangelos may be running things, but they no longer have to worry about having enough money. As recently as February they were making moves geared as much to save money as to improve the team. With Sarver's money, this is not as big a problem.

My guess is that the Suns will end up with a big payroll in two to three years. If the team is winning (deep into the playoffs), I think they will keep the core together.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

You don't have too many chances to get a good 5. We already have a good 2 without JJ, and hopefully we could develop a good 3. The only other option I see, is to draft a 5 and hope for the best.

This is ridiculous. Why do people have this idea we can trade an incosistant tease of a talent, and a very expensive role player (the very best role player, but a role player none the less) for a top center talent?

Especially one that is a bargain price (this is for Magloire and Dalembert).



Anyways, like I said, Dalembert looked good for less time than JJ did. He is a center, and should be great, but is far from a sure thing. If the Suns wouldn't trade JJ and Marion for a top 5 player in the leage, no way in hell they would even THINK about doing it for an unproven center.



SOMEONE COME BACK TO REALITY!

 

[Bada0Bing]

What do you think? Is he a "top center talent" or an "unproven center"?

I would roll the dice and take the chance of him being a "top center talent". I've liked this guy since he was a worthless rookie. He is a nice fit with Amare.

 

[George O'Brien]

A year ago Dalembert was a 100% project. As a rookie, he played a TOTAL of 177 minutes. Lampe spent his entire Knicks career on the IR and he got 225 minutes.

One of the reasons that Dalembert won't get moved is that there is a history of guys playing really well for part of a season and then doing very little afterward. Issac Austin was a backup center to Zo Mourning who came in and played very well when Zo was injured. He got a big contract and did nothing afterward.

Eddie Curry played like an all-star at the end of 2002-03 season and everyone was predicting big things for him. He ended up riding the bench a lot this season and was no where close to being as effective.

Marc Jackson in 2000-01 averaged 7.5 rpg in 29.4 minutes. After that he had two dismal seasons. Last year with the Sixers, he had fewer rebounds per minute than Jake Voskuhl in the few games he played.

If Dalembert has another strong season, he will be worth a lot in the trade market. Right now, no one is going to give the Sixers a couple starters and take back a bad contract to get him. History suggests it is a bad risk.

 

[Biclops]

One center I would like the Suns to consider would be Brendan Haywood from the Washington Wizard

He is 7 foot / weighs 268 lbs and averaged...

PPG 7.0
RPG 5.0
BPG 1.3
FG% .515

Ranks #3 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 minutes
Ranks #14 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 minutes

Haywood may not be a top flight center (Shaq / Yao) or have alot of potential (Magloire / Dalembert) but all we need from the center position is a good role player that knows his job (rebound and block) which I think Haywood can do

A trade I thought at the top of my head (I think it works cap wise too)

Phoenix trades:
Zarko
CJ
Rights to Milo

Washington trades:
Haywood
Steve Blake

Add draft picks if we need to

What do you guys think?
I think this is more realistic than trading for Dalembert or Magloire

 

[cly2tw]

If the Suns wouldn't trade JJ and Marion for a top 5 player in the leage, no way in hell they would even THINK about doing it for an unproven center.

Someone posted that the real reason Suns stayed away from TMac was his demand to extend his max contract, fearing another Penny fiasco. Not willing to trade JJ AND Marion for him is the way they need to talk following that anyway.