Opening Day Roster for the 2017/18 Season

[pokerface]

I think the suns are already thinking about the next draft. Plus maybe they want to force Len to step up or flop.

I mean in reality...do we even need a "standard" center this season? We have Len, Bender, and Williams (who will probably be back at some point). Why do we need Chandler too? If Len is an example of Chandlers "mentoring" then I dont even want him around the other players.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I agree with your approach, JC, but nobody is going to give us rights to swap picks with them for Chandler. Well, they might, but not if they have a good pick.

They might if its the Suns pick, which will probably be a good pick too. Its conceivable that the Suns pick could be better than the NJ pick, for instance, this year. In that case, whoever it is gets Chandler for nothing.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think the suns are already thinking about the next draft. Plus maybe they want to force Len to step up or flop.

I mean in reality...do we even need a "standard" center this season? We have Len, Bender, and Williams (who will probably be back at some point). Why do we need Chandler too? If Len is an example of Chandlers "mentoring" then I dont even want him around the other players.

McDonough has spoken of playing Bender and Chriss at center this season.

Phoenix general manager Ryan McDonough said 2016 lottery picks Bender and Chriss are more suited to play center this year, and the Suns have been experimenting with using them side-by-side in practices and during the Prescott Valley scrimmage to wrap training camp.

http://arizonasports.com/story/1271...d-the-possibility-of-dealing-dudley-chandler/

I doubt Williams will be back this season at least for any meanful games. He is reportedly out 6 months.

Also can't blame Chandler for Len's shortcomings.

 

[Hoop Head]

How is he "holding us back"?

How is he helping us build for the future? I don't get why so many people are hung up on keeping him. Who has shown improvement under his mentoring? Len certainly hasn't. It's said he's a great locker room guy but where is the evidence of that? Like I said, he didn't help when Markieff was pouting and quit on this team either. We had a toxic locker room during his 1st year here and the blame fell on Hornacek but it got worse between the 2014/15 season and 2015/16 season when Chandler was brought in. So what has he done to improve the locker room? I'm not blaming him but those incidents wouldn't have happened or been lessened if he did all some people claim he does.

Chandler is supposed to help with our image since he's a trusted vet but he hasn't stepped out in front of the media to help improve our image like Dudley has, he's also not mentioned by teammates interviews as a positive influence like Dudley has been. Chandler is rarely mentioned if he is at all. That tells me that Dudley is the more valuable veteran mentor but he has less trade value around the league. I appreciate what Chandler's contributed on the court but it's time to move on. What does he do for us going forward? Help us finish the season with our wins being in the low 30 instead of high 20's for the season? He's not helping by sticking around. Even that doesn't help us now.

If he was open to coming off the bench behind Len then maybe he could be of service but he's the 3rd highest paid player on the team behind Bledsoe and Knight. Coming off the bench would also hurt his trade value. It might be too late for that anyways since Len will be an unrestricted this summer and will probably leave, whether Chandler is here or not. That's not Chandler's fault but the guy who was supposed to be our future Center and Chandler's successor has regressed in Tyson's time here and will most likely leave this summer while we get no return. That's not his fault but that says something about his mentoring, that it's overrated at the least. Just because we're not signing any big name free agents doesn't mean we should overpay mediocre vets in their declining year who won't help us in the future, especially when we could trade him for some sort of value. Who knows what but I doubt he has negative trade value. It's better to not pay anyone than overpay someone who won't help us this year or next. So again, how does he help us now or for next season or the year after that? Might as well get what we can and move on.

 

[SirStefan32]

We are not hung up on keeping him. It's you who is obsessed with trading him. Trading him does not help the Suns "build for the future" at all. Chandler is an old guy with a hefty contract. Teams that could use him don't have good picks, and even if they did, they wouldn't trade them for Chandler. You might get a pick in the 20s. Suns don't need more picks outside of top 3 or top 5 or whatever. Look at the roster- it's full of young kids aged 18-25 or so. Suns suck with or without Chandler. It makes zero difference.

Who is he holding back? Is Len magically gonna turn into an NBA player overnight when Chandler is gone? Is Bender going to find confidence, turn into a great shooter and add 30 lb of muscle overnight? Is Chriss going to lose his crappy attitude and gain 30 points ofr basketball IQ once Chandler leaves? Obsession with trading Chandler and Dudley is silly. They are not hurting anything, there is no free agents that the Suns want to sign, they are bellow the cap, there is literally zero reason to trade Chandler and Dudley.

How is it's better to not pay anyone than overpay someone who won't help us this year or next? It makes zero difference. They will be paying someone. Who cares if it's Chandler and Dudley or a trio of Tom, Dick, and Harry?

 

[pokerface]

We are not hung up on keeping him. It's you who is obsessed with trading him. Trading him does not help the Suns "build for the future" at all. Chandler is an old guy with a hefty contract. Teams that could use him don't have good picks, and even if they did, they wouldn't trade them for Chandler. You might get a pick in the 20s. Suns don't need more picks outside of top 3 or top 5 or whatever. Look at the roster- it's full of young kids aged 18-25 or so. Suns suck with or without Chandler. It makes zero difference.

Who is he holding back? Is Len magically gonna turn into an NBA player overnight when Chandler is gone? Is Bender going to find confidence, turn into a great shooter and add 30 lb of muscle overnight? Is Chriss going to lose his crappy attitude and gain 30 points ofr basketball IQ once Chandler leaves? Obsession with trading Chandler and Dudley is silly. They are not hurting anything, there is no free agents that the Suns want to sign, they are bellow the cap, there is literally zero reason to trade Chandler and Dudley.

How is it's better to not pay anyone than overpay someone who won't help us this year or next? It makes zero difference. They will be paying someone. Who cares if it's Chandler and Dudley or a trio of Tom, Dick, and Harry?

The same group that wants to keep Chandler is the same anti tank crowd me thinks.


Here is why Chandler needs to go...

He might help the suns wins some games here and there....The tank crowd (which includes Sarver and McD) don't want that.

He might get us another draft pick and/or expiring contract. Any pick can be used for trading purposes... maybe to help move up in the next draft. Maybe to help move players. The longer we keep Chandler the less value he has.

Moving Chandler may help motivate Len..or not. It may make Len want to stay...or not. But keeping Chandler will NOT make Len want to stay. Len needs playing time to get his value up.


Dudley and Bledsoe can go too for all I care. Not part of our future.. They hurt our tank.. they eat up salary...they can gain us assets we can use for things that can help our future.

 

[Hoop Head]

Why not add another pick if we can? That pick could be paired with others to move up or it could be packaged with Knight to get him and his contract out of here. I think everyone agrees that Knight needs to go, since he's injured this year though there is no urgency to unloading him. A lot of people have talked about buying him out, which I haven't seen anyone against. If we can get piece that helps us from having to buy him out, that's a huge plus. If it's not packaged with Knight or a pick to move up in the draft this next year, it's better to have that extra asset. We could trade that for a future 1st or someone intriguing who fits into our plans. Look at what Boston has done with their assets over the years. It doesn't need to be a pick for this upcoming season though, it could be further out, we don't need it now which could help us as far as acquiring a 1st in return. Having an extra 1st rounder is a problem I'd like to see the Suns have.

Maybe Len doesn't get better but it'd be better to give him a final chance before he leaves and we watch the light come on elsewhere, like what happened with Robin Lopez. That's not guaranteed or likely but Chandler does nothing for us except help us win a couple of a extra games, not enough to make the playoffs but enough to go from having a lot of ping pong ball's to just a few ping pong balls come lottery time. I'd much rather be looking at picking 3rd or 4th than 8th or 9th, which is where this team will likely finish. All of our wins would be produced by talent who will be here for the next few years rather than them getting used to playing with Chandler only to see him retire or leave soon. I'd rather our youngsters earn things on their own, every last win, and get used to playing with people who they will for years to come rather than someone who isn't a part of our plans a year or two from now but he's not even really a part of plans right now.

It's better to not pay anyone because then we'd have money available to acquire someone who may fit into our long term plans. Whether we can sign a player this summer or get someone in salary dump, I'd rather have the space and not use it then have it tied up on someone who won't help this team improve. Don't see how that's not understandable.

Even if we can only unload Chandler and his contract for nothing in return except maybe a future 2nd rounder, why not make that trade? What does he bring to the table that makes you want to retain him until his contract expires? Don't say anything about him being worth more later because that's highly unlikely, his value is as high as it will get. He could very well get injured and miss most of this season like Williams or the whole season like Knight.

 

[pokerface]

It all comes down to what we value.


Not only I envy team(s) like the Warriors or Cavs...teams that have title hopes and superstars. But almost as much I envy teams like the Celtics.. currently having good players...great draft picks. A massive war chest they have. They have options. If I was a Celtics fan I'd be estatic over thier future potential.

I want the suns to have the most options available at their disposal too. Right now I value young rising players.. high draft picks on long locked in cheap contracts. I want the suns to have financial flexibility...be under the salary cap as much as possible to be able to go after a potential star on a moments notice. You don't do these things in a single season. You do it one move at a time and wait out the storm of good teams looming over us.

I could care less about locker room good guy stuff...some of these players are halfway out the door...some may not even know it yet. This season is already a write off as far as I'm concerned. Its an evaluation season...an experiment season. Its another tank season...and the worst thing is to be half baked about tanking. You trade players that dont fit long term...you shed salary...and as we found out last season you sit players if necessary. You don't let any mamby pamby feelings get in the way. We need star potential at center/power forward. Right now we have players we don't even know what position they should play or how good they are. That tells me we need more draft picks and eventually free agents. We don't sit back and be content over some token wins that do nothing for our bottomline.

 

[Hoop Head]

I'm not ready to commit to a full tank quite yet but I think this team should be 100% committed to it's youth, for better or worse, and Chandler is standing in the way of our youth getting as minutes as possible.

 

[elindholm]

Why not add another pick if we can? That pick could be paired with others to move up or it could be packaged with Knight to get him and his contract out of here.

If someone wants to give a valuable pick for Chandler, that's fine. I don't think those deals are out there.

Maybe Len doesn't get better but it'd be better to give him a final chance before he leaves and we watch the light come on elsewhere, like what happened with Robin Lopez.

Robin Lopez had shown much more than Len when the Suns gave up on him. The Lopez decision has always puzzled me (as I also said at the time).

them getting used to playing with Chandler only to see him retire or leave soon.

But we do want the Suns to get used to playing with a competent center, rather than a stiff who will never be a real NBA player (Len) or a lightweight who is playing out of position (Chriss, Bender). Small ball leads to all sorts of bad habits, and if the Suns ever want to go anywhere, they need to eradicate it from their identity.

Even if we can only unload Chandler and his contract for nothing in return except maybe a future 2nd rounder, why not make that trade? What does he bring to the table that makes you want to retain him until his contract expires?

It's the "good faith" principle. He has said he doesn't want to be traded, and the return the Suns would get from trading him is low. There's more long-term value in trying to re-establish the franchise's reputation as one that does things the right way.

Who has shown improvement under his mentoring? Len certainly hasn't. It's said he's a great locker room guy but where is the evidence of that? Like I said, he didn't help when Markieff was pouting and quit on this team either. We had a toxic locker room during his 1st year here and the blame fell on Hornacek but it got worse between the 2014/15 season and 2015/16 season when Chandler was brought in. So what has he done to improve the locker room? I'm not blaming him but those incidents wouldn't have happened or been lessened if he did all some people claim he does.

That's a valid point. Maybe it would be even worse without Chandler or maybe not. I think the Morrisses were a big problem, and now it's incompetent coaching. But I agree that Chandler could play a bigger role as a mentor.

If he was open to coming off the bench behind Len then maybe he could be of service

What evidence is there that Chandler isn't open to coming off the bench? I've never heard anything about that.

Just because we're not signing any big name free agents doesn't mean we should overpay mediocre vets in their declining year who won't help us in the future, especially when we could trade him for some sort of value.

I think our main disagreement is what kind of value Chandler would bring back in a trade.

 

[JCSunsfan]

The same group that wants to keep Chandler is the same anti tank crowd me thinks.


Here is why Chandler needs to go...

He might help the suns wins some games here and there....The tank crowd (which includes Sarver and McD) don't want that.

He might get us another draft pick and/or expiring contract. Any pick can be used for trading purposes... maybe to help move up in the next draft. Maybe to help move players. The longer we keep Chandler the less value he has.

Moving Chandler may help motivate Len..or not. It may make Len want to stay...or not. But keeping Chandler will NOT make Len want to stay. Len needs playing time to get his value up.


Dudley and Bledsoe can go too for all I care. Not part of our future.. They hurt our tank.. they eat up salary...they can gain us assets we can use for things that can help our future.

Nope. I am anti-tank AND I think Chandler needs to go. I think there are many more like me. I do not think he is a real help winning games any more.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If someone wants to give a valuable pick for Chandler, that's fine. I don't think those deals are out there.



Robin Lopez had shown much more than Len when the Suns gave up on him. The Lopez decision has always puzzled me (as I also said at the time).



But we do want the Suns to get used to playing with a competent center, rather than a stiff who will never be a real NBA player (Len) or a lightweight who is playing out of position (Chriss, Bender). Small ball leads to all sorts of bad habits, and if the Suns ever want to go anywhere, they need to eradicate it from their identity.



It's the "good faith" principle. He has said he doesn't want to be traded, and the return the Suns would get from trading him is low. There's more long-term value in trying to re-establish the franchise's reputation as one that does things the right way.



That's a valid point. Maybe it would be even worse without Chandler or maybe not. I think the Morrisses were a big problem, and now it's incompetent coaching. But I agree that Chandler could play a bigger role as a mentor.



What evidence is there that Chandler isn't open to coming off the bench? I've never heard anything about that.



I think our main disagreement is what kind of value Chandler would bring back in a trade.

Its easy about Lopez. They had both Gortat and Lopez. They had to choose one as their starting center going forward. It was Gortat.

 

[Chaplin]

Nope. I am anti-tank AND I think Chandler needs to go. I think there are many more like me. I do not think he is a real help winning games any more.

I don't think Chandler NEEDS to go. There is no compelling reason why he would be a detriment to this team. None.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't think Chandler NEEDS to go. There is no compelling reason why he would be a detriment to this team. None.

OK. I can give you two.

1. If Watson feels compelled to start him above Len or another young player, I believe it is a compelling reason. Even if he doesn't start, but plays. He then takes away minutes from a younger player that needs to develop.

2. If Chandler is not content to ride the bench while youngsters play, he needs to go. I cannot imagine that he would be OK with doing that at the beginning of a season.

Yes these are conditional. So maybe a conditional reason is not a compelling reason in your mind.

 

[pokerface]

The suns seem like they are just waiting on the right offers to move players. Its a matter of time.

Call it what you want but the suns aren't going to light up the league this season. Losing Williams was a major downer to the team. He was not only productive but we'll liked. Then Dudley and Knight are out for what it's worth. Len could be playing a lot of minutes and we all know what that means potentially. We have multiple players who are undefined and untested. We have no proven lineups... especially with Williams out. Plus to top it off we have player movements where the west got even tougher.

 

[elindholm]

Even if he doesn't start, but plays. He then takes away minutes from a younger player that needs to develop.

It's time to debunk this myth once and for all.

Last season, Len got 23.0 minutes per game when he started, and 18.1 when he came off the bench. That's a small difference. His per-minute effectiveness was about the same either way. Whether Chandler is in the lineup has nothing to do with Len's development.

After the All-Star Break, Chandler didn't play a single game. Len averaged 21.7 minutes -- less than he did as a starter before the Break. So Chandler's disappearance was correlated with slightly less playing time for Len, not more.

How about Bender? His minutes were higher in the five games he played after the Break, 18.4 versus 12.7 pre-Break. So maybe Chandler being out of the picture gave him a few more opportunities. But he was still terrible, and then he got hurt, so Chandler sure wasn't in his way there.

The beneficiary of Chandler's absence was Alan Williams. His minutes more than tripled after the Break, from 7.1 to 22.6, and that doesn't even factor in his DNPs, which were much more frequent in the first part of the season. And he made an impact while he was out there. It's not hard to see why: He averaged 11 and 9 after the Break while playing less than half of each game(!!), and he has an energy and presence on the court that Len and Bender can only dream of.

But, Williams is hurt. So even if Chandler were potentially going to interfere with his development by competing for his minutes, it's a non-issue.

That leaves Chriss, who is already suffering from being forced to play center with Chandler's reduced preseason minutes and Williams's injury. Removing Chandler altogether would impede Chriss's development as a PF, the position he should be playing.

To summarize:

* With respect to Len, having Chandler around probably doesn't matter.

* With respect to Williams, having Chandler around is potentially an issue, but we won't know until both are healthy at the same time, which may never happen.

* With respect to Bender, having Chandler around makes no difference at all.

* With respect to Chriss, having Chandler around is a good thing.

Add that all up, and I want him here.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I don't think Chriss is being forced to play center. They are playing him there by design. There was discussion about that from Watson and Chriss all summer.

 

[pokerface]

Well apparently Chandler is being shopped around...

 

[elindholm]

I don't think Chriss is being forced to play center. They are playing him there by design. There was discussion about that from Watson and Chriss all summer.

That could be, but once it becomes obvious even to Watson that it's a bad idea -- which I acknowledge could take some time -- not having Chandler would make it harder to move back from it.

 

[Chaplin]

OK. I can give you two.

1. If Watson feels compelled to start him above Len or another young player, I believe it is a compelling reason. Even if he doesn't start, but plays. He then takes away minutes from a younger player that needs to develop.

2. If Chandler is not content to ride the bench while youngsters play, he needs to go. I cannot imagine that he would be OK with doing that at the beginning of a season.

Yes these are conditional. So maybe a conditional reason is not a compelling reason in your mind.

Your first issue is a problem with the coach then, not Chandler.

Your second issue is based on a huge if that has no evidence of being the case.

 

[Chaplin]

If

Well apparently Chandler is being shopped around...

course he is. Every player not named Booker, Jackson and maybe Warren is being shopped. Any thoughts otherwise aren't realistic.

 

[Chaplin]

It's time to debunk this rumor once and for all.

Last season, Len got 23.0 minutes per game when he started, and 18.1 when he came off the bench. That's a small difference. His per-minute effectiveness was about the same either way. Whether Chandler is in the lineup has nothing to do with Len's development.

After the All-Star Break, Chandler didn't play a single game. Len averaged 21.7 minutes -- less than he did as a starter before the Break. So Chandler's disappearance was correlated with slightly less playing time for Len, not more.

How about Bender? His minutes were higher in the five games he played after the Break, 18.4 versus 12.7 pre-Break. So maybe Chandler being out of the picture gave him a few more opportunities. But he was still terrible, and then he got hurt, so Chandler sure wasn't in his way there.

The beneficiary of Chandler's absence was Alan Williams. His minutes more than tripled after the Break, from 7.1 to 22.6, and that doesn't even factor in his DNPs, which were much more frequent in the first part of the season. And he made an impact while he was out there. It's not hard to see why: He averaged 11 and 9 after the Break while playing less than half of each game(!!), and he has an energy and presence on the court that Len and Bender can only dream of.

But, Williams is hurt. So even if Chandler were potentially going to interfere with his development by competing for his minutes, it's a non-issue.

That leaves Chriss, who is already suffering from being forced to play center with Chandler's reduced preseason minutes and Williams's injury. Removing Chandler altogether would impede Chriss's development as a PF, the position he should be playing.

To summarize:

* With respect to Len, having Chandler around probably doesn't matter.

* With respect to Williams, having Chandler around is potentially an issue, but we won't know until both are healthy at the same time, which may never happen.

* With respect to Bender, having Chandler around makes no difference at all.

* With respect to Chriss, having Chandler around is a good thing.

Add that all up, and I want him here.

Boom. Agreed here.

 

[BC867]

Moving Chandler may help motivate Len..or not. It may make Len want to stay...or not. But keeping Chandler will NOT make Len want to stay.

At this point, has Alex Len earned the right to "want"?

Len needs playing time to get his value up.

How many years are we going to cling to that same empty hope?

Len has had a couple of good pre-season games so far. If he has finally turned the corner and fits in with the Suns style, great!

With his history of having a good game here and there during the season, we'll know soon enough if this year will be any different.

I'm curious if you're getting close to saying that he's had enough time to earn a role.

 

[pokerface]

Chandler...It would be a shame if having him around cost us a chance at a top four pick next season. And for what??

The lesson the suns should have learned last season is to trade the players they want to sit. Minus Booker they should trade Chandler and Bledsoe. When you trade them then we don't have to hear belly aching from players and fans on how we're tanking. They're just gone.

 

[pokerface]

At this point, has Alex Len earned the right to "want"?


How many years are we going to cling to that same empty hope?

Len has had a couple of good pre-season games so far. If he has finally turned the corner and fits in with the Suns style, great!

With his history of having a good game here and there during the season, we'll know soon enough if this year will be any different.

I'm curious if you're getting close to saying that he's had enough time to earn a role.

I've given up on Len for over a year. But he's still here so we need to manage the situation to our benefit. Either play him to tank our season or play him to make him better. We signed this stiff not to just look at him...make him do something to benefit this team.