ORL/PHO/IND proposal

elindholm

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Orlando gives up
Tracy McGrady
Juwan Howard
first-round pick in either 2005 or 2006 (PHO option)

Orlando receives
Shawn Marion ($11.3M, 2009)
Al Harrington ($6.3M, 2006)
Fred Jones ($1.6M, 2006)

Phoenix gives up
Shawn Marion

Phoenix receives
Ron Artest ($5.9M, 2009)
Juwan Howard ($5.4M, 2009)
ORL first-round pick in either 2005 or 2006 (PHO option)

Indiana gives up
Ron Artest
Al Harrington
Fred Jones

Indiana receives
Tracy McGrady ($14.5M, 2005)
 

sly fly

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elindholm said:
Orlando gives up
Tracy McGrady
Juwan Howard
first-round pick in either 2005 or 2006 (PHO option)

Orlando receives
Shawn Marion ($11.3M, 2009)
Al Harrington ($6.3M, 2006)
Fred Jones ($1.6M, 2006)

Phoenix gives up
Shawn Marion

Phoenix receives
Ron Artest ($5.9M, 2009)
Juwan Howard ($5.4M, 2009)
ORL first-round pick in either 2005 or 2006 (PHO option)

Indiana gives up
Ron Artest
Al Harrington
Fred Jones

Indiana receives
Tracy McGrady ($14.5M, 2005)

It's official. I'm getting dizzy.
:D
 

George O'Brien

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I am not interested in Howard at all. He is already 31 and has five more years ($32 million) on his contract. He is at most an "average" defender and is unlikely to get better.
 
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elindholm

elindholm

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I am not interested in Howard at all.

That's probably related to your persistent fantasy that McDyess is going to regain his old form and play with the Suns for cheap.

Howard is a better solution at center than McDyess, and by the time he gets old, the CBA most likely will have changed to the point that his salary won't be a big deal.
 
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capologist

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If Orlando is interested in getting out of Howard’s contract, and if Kobe is interested in us, then maybe we could do something like Marion/JJ/Eisley for McGrady/Howard.

And Kobe to the mix, and you have a very impressive roster:

PG - #7 (Gordon/Harris/Livingston)
SG - Kobe
SF - McGrady
PF - Amaré
C - Voskuhl

Bench: Barbosa, Vujanic (?), Casey, Zarko, Dice (?), Howard, Lampe
 

George O'Brien

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elindholm said:
I am not interested in Howard at all.

That's probably related to your persistent fantasy that the McDyess is going to regain his old form and play with the Suns for cheap.

Howard is a better solution at center than McDyess, and by the time he gets old, the CBA most likely will have changed to the point that his salary won't be a big deal.

Howard is listed at 6'9" 230. If Dice is too small to play center at 6'9 245, then Howard isn't even close.

BTW, I don't think Dice will play for the veteran minimum, but I think $2.5 would be enough unless every other big man gets the full MLE or more. In any case, I think Dice would actually WANT a short term deal because he would like to be a free agent in a year or two after proving he is really healthy.
 
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elindholm

elindholm

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Howard is listed at 6'9" 230. If Dice is too small to play center at 6'9 245, then Howard isn't even close.

It's not just the size. It's also the agility. McDyess is not coming back to form. Howard has been exceptionally healthy throughout his career. Those extra 15 pounds don't do any good to a guy with severely compromised athleticism.

If I believed that McDyess's recovery would continue to move forward and that he wouldn't get hurt again, that would be different. But on the other hand, anyone who does believe that is going to offer him more than the Suns want to pay.
 

F-Dog

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Hmmm...

My first thought is that this trade doesn't work with the pick. Orlando is giving up too much, and the Suns are getting too much. Take away the pick and the values add up much better.


Orlando's roster is kind of a mess after the trade. With Drew Gooden, three of the Magic's top four players are forwards, and the Magic will have to play an undersized PF pretty much all of the time. Their draft pick would almost have to be Okafor, he'd have to play exclusively at center, and then the team's entire front line is undersized.


Without the pick, I don't think Phoenix upgrades their roster. Juwan Howard is only effective at PF--that's something he proved last season. Since the Suns have three PFs already who need time (Amare, Lampe and Zarko), the only way Howard gets on the court is if one or two players are playing out of position. Howard would be worth more to the Suns IMO if he was moved along immediately for a shorter contract.

With Artest, a lot of his offense comes from post-ups, which wouldn't fit nearly as well with Amare's game as it has with Jermaine O'Neal's. Then you've got the head-case stuff, which pops up at the worst possible times and also worsens the team's overall chemistry. Also, Artest likes to take over the game at times, and I don't mean that in a good way; if he's installed in Phoenix as the third option with a chance to move down the list, there's going to be trouble at some point.

Artest might be a comparable or even a slightly better player than Shawn Marion, but my guess is that this Phoenix Suns team is better with Marion than they would be with Artest.

From the Suns' perspective, then, this is a salary dump, and I think the timing is very poor right now for that kind of move. If the Suns aren't improving rapidly next year, there's a danger that they'll collapse entirely into a Bulls-like or Clippers-like morass, and the easiest way to keep improving is to keep the team's main pieces together.
 

cly2tw

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McGrady, Howard for Marion, JJ (or #7, Magic's choice), Zarko (or Lampe), Eisley

Magic: Okafor/Gooden/Marion/JJ makes a good building block already. In one year, Eisley's has only one year left and hence easy to be traded. Hill's is gone in three years before they have to extend Okafor. They will have enough cap to sign a FA to max.

Suns: With Howard for Eisley, we'd have even more cap. Kobe might be enticed to come here now McGrady is already on the team, since LA will be in a mess whether they can get Shaq traded. If we keep #7 and draft a PG say Gordon, our lineup:

Horward/Amare/McGrady/Kobe/Gordon

with Jake/Lampe(or Zarko)/CJ/Barbosa/FAs on bench. Not too bad either.
 

cly2tw

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capologist said:
I like it, cly2tw. Very creative thinking. ;)

Oops, missed your post #5. So, should've said, had I not missed, "I second cap's idea and wish to provide a bit more rationales supporting it." :cheers:
 

George O'Brien

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I can't really evaluate a deal with that many options. I oppose giving up JJ and Lampe. If someone can get them to accept Marion, Eisley, Zarko and the #7, then sure go for it. Heck, throw in Casey if it helps. Snowball's chance, but why not offer?
 

cly2tw

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George O'Brien said:
I can't really evaluate a deal with that many options. I oppose giving up JJ and Lampe. If someone can get them to accept Marion, Eisley, Zarko and the #7, then sure go for it. Heck, throw in Casey if it helps. Snowball's chance, but why not offer?

I really don't understand your infatuation with players we own on the team. :confused: Think of a hypothetical Reorganization draft of NBA with 30 teams, both McGrady and Amare will be drafted in the first 10 picks. JJ will be lucky if he gets drafted before pick 60 and Lampe 150. This means they are easy to replace. Then why bother!
 

George O'Brien

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cly2tw said:
I really don't understand your infatuation with players we own on the team. :confused: Think of a hypothetical Reorganization draft of NBA with 30 teams, both McGrady and Amare will be drafted in the first 10 picks. JJ will be lucky if he gets drafted before pick 60 and Lampe 150. This means they are easy to replace. Then why bother!

For me, Lampe was the key to the Marbury deal. He has the potential to be the best center the Suns have ever had (yeh, I know it is hardly an illustrious company). This is a team that has NEVER had top center and their best in the team's history was only 6'9" (Adams).

For decades the Suns fans have bemoaned the fact that always draft so late they never get a chance to take a potential star center. They whine about how how they lost Kareem in a coin flip and they always having to play small ball. They complain that the guys available in free agency are too expensive and not very good. But when they get a big guy with unlimited potential, what do they want to do? Trade him away for another shooter.

Maybe Lampe won't pan out. That's the risk. But I don't want to find out too late and watch him become a star with the Magic.
 

cly2tw

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I just checked the list of FA and found tons of potential interest for us there. Alexander, Richerson, Blount, Bowen, Rodney White, Mike James, Kenny Anderson, Person, etc. who might be had for not much. So, if needed, get McGrady for Marion, JJ AND #7. If we weren't gonna get Kobe, we'd still have tons of cap to sign some good talent for cheap.

Blount 4.5mil, 4+2 years with team option for the last two
Alexander 2-3, same
Rodney White, 1.5, 2+1, and or
Bowen, 3mil, 4 years

It's not too bad.
 

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George O'Brien said:
For me, Lampe was the key to the Marbury deal. He has the potential to be the best center the Suns have ever had (yeh, I know it is hardly an illustrious company). This is a team that has NEVER had top center and their best in the team's history was only 6'9" (Adams).

For decades the Suns fans have bemoaned the fact that always draft so late they never get a chance to take a potential star center. They whine about how how they lost Kareem in a coin flip and they always having to play small ball. They complain that the guys available in free agency are too expensive and not very good. But when they get a big guy with unlimited potential, what do they want to do? Trade him away for another shooter.

Maybe Lampe won't pan out. That's the risk. But I don't want to find out too late and watch him become a star with the Magic.


If I worked on it for an hour, I couldn't have said it better myself. Each and every point!

He's tall enough, heavy enough, agile enough, shoots well enough, is aggessive enough.

Enough with the enoughs! I'll say it before someone else does!
 
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Joe Mama

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A few random thoughts...

I still don't believe that the Phoenix Suns will give the Orlando Magic Shawn Marion, JJ, and the #7 draft pick even if it's a deal breaker. Even if it means a miss out on McGrady, and he goes to one of their Western Conference rivals they will not give all of those three pieces to the Magic. I'm fine with that. If McGrady is totally healthy and there are no questions about his work ethic and attitude I would give up that much to get him. That's not the case however.

I think Lampe is going to be a good player next season. I'm not sure the Phoenix Suns believe he is a center though. I really do not want to see Lampe traded, but that's a pretty reasonable deal for McGrady. Lampe has a lot of potential. He hasn't done anything yet though. This league is riddled with players with incredible potential who never ended up doing much of anything.

capologist, did slin get ahold of your user password? :)

I'm about to open HoopsHype and ESPN Insider this morning. I sure hope they give us a better idea of what is actually happening although I'm not holding my breath. My head might explode before Thursday if we don't get some solid news soon. At least there is plenty to talk about. It's great to see the message board this busy with quality reading material.

Joe Mama
 
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