OT: Shawn Marion's Stupidity

[Arizona's Finest]

Call me Marion Hater and love him all you want Suns fans. Just realize Cheese is EXACTLY right and now we are seeing the fruition of what all of so called "bashers" have been saying for years.

I have a coy smile on my face watching him struggle out here in Miami. And with every good Shaq game that trade looks smarter and smarter.

I have no personal ill will towards the guy but he made his bed and will suffer come offseason.

File this one under be careful what you wish for.

And at he risk of sounding hypocritical - Man we should have kept Joe even if we had to trade Marion at the time. JJ is the one that got away and he remains my favorite non-Sun. We should have paid him that 5 mill. THEN we would be talking championship.

 

[Mainstreet]

The only problem with Marion is he is not worth his contract. I would like to have Marion back for a reasonable contract as compared to say what Diaw brings to the table night in and night out.

 

[pokerface]

you know, I don't tell you to shut up when you say something I disagree with. I'd appreciate the same from you. It's a new season, Marion's numbers are even worse and it's a topic of conversation. if you don't want to contribute to the thread okay, but there's no need for the above.

Look, we're on to a new season so no need to rehash a bunch of bad feelings. Appreciate what we have NOW which is still a very talented team.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

kg nash and amare would have been invincible. even with 'antoni

 

[Bufalay]

You realize that is Michael Jordan, right? No one could stop Jordan...

I just wanted to post those because I watched them the other day. I wasn't saying Marion should've stopped him. HOWEVER, Jordan was old and sucked at that point. Kind of like Shaq now.

 

[Kablansky]

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Check the stats, Shawn Marion has scored more points, more steals, etc... It's an enigma for a previously successful college to have Marion as their flag carrier

 

[Goldfield]

how many millions of dollars did Marion lose by rejecting Boston's contract extension in the proposed KG deal that he blocked two summers ago? He's now averaging 10.4 ppg, 8.6 rbs on 39% shooting. Has anyone even seen a highlight of him since he went to the Heat?

Thank you one more time Shawn for blocking what would undoubtedly have given us an unstoppable team and for convincing yourself that you were a MAX player... moron.

Sure open up old woulds! I had dreams of KG & Amare teamed up. That would of been amazing...

 

[mojorizen7]

You realize that is Michael Jordan, right? No one could stop Jordan...

Thank you.

 

[Black Jesus]

i hope shawn marion gets a ESPN story this year where they point taht out to im and see his response...

 

[TucsonDevil]

As I watched the Heat on ESPN the other night, it was 10 min in before I even heard the commentators say his name. It was all about the Rookies and Wade. Hillarious! I do feel bad for Shawn, but when you complain and hang your head all the time, you fail to look around and see just how good you actually have it. Marion is a good player, and I would love to have him back for a 'LB & Diaw for Marion' trade in Feb. Wouldn't that be funny!

 

[LV-Suns]

I don't want him back at all anymore. He would be absolutely terrible in a system that Porter is running as of now.

 

[nowagimp]

Because it wouldn't be enough. KG had a career before he got to the Celtics and some of those T-Wolves teams were horrible. Just because you have KG doesn't mean your team is going to win a title. I am not saying that KG could not have made the team better but he would have struggled just like Shaq IMO to get used to our system.

Not to mention that I am sure D'Antoni would have schemed KG's effectiveness out of him on the defensive end as well. Don't get me wrong. I would LOVE to have the guy in uniform this year. This year would have made more of a difference.

Oh come on, the celtics were one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA before KG and Ray allen arrived along with eddie house and posey. KG and posey are very good defenders, but house and allen are less than average, house in particualr is worse than nash. Your prognosticating just sounds silly, but since no one can ever prove you wrong, such prognostication is cheap.

 

[Covert Rain]

Oh come on, the celtics were one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA before KG and Ray allen arrived along with eddie house and posey. KG and posey are very good defenders, but house and allen are less than average, house in particualr is worse than nash. Your prognosticating just sounds silly, but since no one can ever prove you wrong, such prognostication is cheap.

I don't think your giving Doc Rivers enough credit for what he has done with the Celtics. Especially what Tom Thibodeau had done with the defense. The Celtics had already started making market improvements pre-KG. Adding a player of his caliber was icing on the cake.

I said KG had an impact and that he would have made an impact here. However, saying KG would have given us a title last year being added to a team that played ZERO defense when compared to Boston???? We had a coach that didn't preach defense. We had a coach that didn't play his bench. We had a coach that was more concerned about offensive scheming then defense. We had a team that was very undisciplined on the defensive end.

Adding KG would have changed all that? Really? Now IMO that prognosticating sounds silly.

 

[nowagimp]

I don't think your giving Doc Rivers enough credit for what he has done with the Celtics. Especially what Tom Thibodeau had done with the defense. The Celtics had already started making market improvements pre-KG. Adding a player of his caliber was icing on the cake.

I said KG had an impact and that he would have made an impact here. However, saying KG would have given us a title last year being added to a team that played ZERO defense when compared to Boston???? We had a coach that didn't preach defense. We had a coach that didn't play his bench. We had a coach that was more concerned about offensive scheming then defense. We had a team that was very undisciplined on the defensive end.

Adding KG would have changed all that? Really? Now IMO that prognosticating sounds silly.

Kg is probably the most dominant defender in the NBA, he was before he went to boston. WHen he is in the lane area, dribble penetrations invariably end up with kickouts. Obviously this and his excellent rebounding would have made a huge difference in any defense. the suns defense with KT was not that bad, with KG it would have been quite good.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't think your giving Doc Rivers enough credit for what he has done with the Celtics. Especially what Tom Thibodeau had done with the defense. The Celtics had already started making market improvements pre-KG. Adding a player of his caliber was icing on the cake.

I said KG had an impact and that he would have made an impact here. However, saying KG would have given us a title last year being added to a team that played ZERO defense when compared to Boston???? We had a coach that didn't preach defense. We had a coach that didn't play his bench. We had a coach that was more concerned about offensive scheming then defense. We had a team that was very undisciplined on the defensive end.

Adding KG would have changed all that? Really? Now IMO that prognosticating sounds silly.

You preach over and over that the Suns played "ZERO" defense, and yet you call prognosticating silly? That's pretty funny.

What I'd like to see is your criteria for a team to play "ZERO" defense.

 

[Covert Rain]

Kg is probably the most dominant defender in the NBA, he was before he went to boston. WHen he is in the lane area, dribble penetrations invariably end up with kickouts. Obviously this and his excellent rebounding would have made a huge difference in any defense. the suns defense with KT was not that bad, with KG it would have been quite good.

Agreed he would have made a difference but not a title difference IMO. I agree our defense was not that bad with Kurt but it was not that great either. Kurt brought more of a toughness then defensive prowess.

Just like D'Antoni did with Shaq (at the start) last year, he would have used KG in unconventional ways. For instance, we forced teams to the paint last year versus to the baseline. Teams ate us alive that way. We needed a defensive ideology change or nobody could have helped us win a title last year IMO.

Also, it's not like we would have night and day performance between Shaq and KG. Shaq is no stiff and in the top 10 in centers (some categories top 5) in the NBA statically this year.

KG
Opponent per (allowing points per game) = 11.1 (.478 shooting percentage).
Blocks = 0.7 per
Rebounds = 10 per
PPG = 14.6
FG% = .45%
APG = 1.4 per
Minutes per game = 32.1

Shaq
Opponent per (allowing points per game) = 12 (.458 shooting percentage).
Blocks = 1.0 per
Rebounds = 8.7 per
PPG = 14.8
FG% = 0.71%
APG = 1.2 per
Minutes per game = 25.5

It could be argued that Shaq is more effective with less minutes per game then KG while defending centers better then KG. Shaq is averaging more blocks per game and keeping opposing centers to a lower shoting percentage. Again, not a night a day difference. Shaq is no stiff.

I am not saying in any way shape or form I would rather have Shaq. I LOVE KG and think in the long run we would have been much better off. From a longevity perspective, from an age perspective and injury perspective there is just no contest.

Just think we are getting production similar to what KG is doing now out of the center position this year. Also, saying that I think it would not have made a lick of difference last year in terms of a title. We probably wouldn't have realized the full impact of KG until this year.....which is what I "hope" is happening as we speak with Shaq.

I will be curious to see if this holds up for Shaq or if he drops off performance wise since it is so early.

You preach over and over that the Suns played "ZERO" defense, and yet you call prognosticating silly? That's pretty funny.

What I'd like to see is your criteria for a team to play "ZERO" defense.

No actually I said my prognosticating had just as much merit as saying the Suns would have won a championship with KG comment. Maybe you didn't get that?

Chap your really funny. You know just as much as I do that I didn't literally mean ZERO. It's a generalization. Obviously, the Suns had to play defense every once in a while. I find it funny Chap that you blast people all the time for taking things so literally. Yet you feel the need to point out a generalization of Zero defense. Funny. Very funny.

 

[nowagimp]

Agreed he would have made a difference but not a title difference IMO. I agree our defense was not that bad with Kurt but it was not that great either. Kurt brought more of a toughness then defensive prowess.

Just like D'Antoni did with Shaq (at the start) last year, he would have used KG in unconventional ways. For instance, we forced teams to the paint last year versus to the baseline. Teams ate us alive that way. We needed a defensive ideology change or nobody could have helped us win a title last year IMO.

Also, it's not like we would have night and day performance between Shaq and KG. Shaq is no stiff and in the top 10 in centers (some categories top 5) in the NBA statically this year.

KG
Opponent per (allowing points per game) = 11.1 (.478 shooting percentage).
Blocks = 0.7 per
Rebounds = 10 per
PPG = 14.6
FG% = .45%
APG = 1.4 per
Minutes per game = 32.1

Shaq
Opponent per (allowing points per game) = 12 (.458 shooting percentage).
Blocks = 1.0 per
Rebounds = 8.7 per
PPG = 14.8
FG% = 0.71%
APG = 1.2 per
Minutes per game = 25.5

It could be argued that Shaq is more effective with less minutes per game then KG while defending centers better then KG. Shaq is averaging more blocks per game and keeping opposing centers to a lower shoting percentage. Again, not a night a day difference. Shaq is no stiff.

I am not saying in any way shape or form I would rather have Shaq. I LOVE KG and think in the long run we would have been much better off. From a longevity perspective, from an age perspective and injury perspective there is just no contest.

Just think we are getting production similar to what KG is doing now out of the center position this year. Also, saying that I think it would not have made a lick of difference last year. We probably wouldn't have realized the full impact of KG until this year.....which is what I "hope" is happening as we speak with Shaq.

I will be curious to see if this holds up for Shaq or if he drops off performance wise since it is so early.



No actually I said my prognosticating had just as much merit as the Suns would have one a championship with KG comment. Maybe you didn't get that?

Chap your really funny. You know just as much as I do that I didn't literally mean ZERO. It's a generalization. Obviously, the Suns had to play defense every once in a while. I find it funny Chap that you blast people all the time for taking things so literally. Yet you feel the need to point out a generalization of Zero defense. Funny. Very funny.

You know better than to quote 6 games of stats, lets look at last years stats, 82 games worth. I know you wouldnt do that, because it would totally reverse your conclusions, even make them look rediculous. And, by the way, does KG have a big weakness defending the pick and roll like the diesel. Also most people know that KG doesnt block alot of shots because guys dont try to shoot over him like they do with shaq. You should understand that in the playoffs weaknesses, like inability to defend the pick and roll, are more important than strengths.

 

[Covert Rain]

You know better than to quote 6 games of stats, lets look at last years stats, 82 games worth. I know you wouldnt do that, because it would totally reverse your conclusions, even make them look rediculous. And, by the way, does KG have a big weakness defending the pick and roll like the diesel. Also most people know that KG doesnt block alot of shots because guys dont try to shoot over him like they do with shaq. You should understand that in the playoffs weaknesses, like inability to defend the pick and roll, are more important than strengths.

Huh??? Why wouldn't I do that? I have done that every season I have posted here. Of course I would. Did you miss the part where I said

"I will be curious to see if this holds up for Shaq or if he drops off performance wise since it is so early."

Your acting like this is a condemnation on KG. I already said I would rather have him. If and when stats bear out a different view, then I will take a different view. I just working with what I have so far this season. So, far this season Shaq has been effective.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't want him back at all anymore. He would be absolutely terrible in a system that Porter is running as of now.

I disagree. I think Marion would bring a lot to the Suns with his defense and also his ability to play both forward positions. It would allow the Suns to be more flexible. I'm thinking NY will gobble him up at the trading deadline.

 

[Covert Rain]

I disagree. I think Marion would bring a lot to the Suns with his defense and also his ability to play both forward positions. It would allow the Suns to be more flexible. I'm thinking NY will gobble him up at the trading deadline.

I agree. The Heat overall are struggling defensively so his drop off is not that surprising. However, if you asked me if I would rather have Shawn Marion, Grant Hill or Matt Barnes....it's no contest.

The problem with Marion is that he has an Ego and thinks he is good enough to be the "man" somewhere. He isn't. He would never come here.

You bring up an interesting point with New York. That would be interesting. Do you think he would really go back to the Coach who made him 3rd fiddle on the Suns?

 

[msdundee]

Do you think he would really go back to the Coach who made him 3rd fiddle on the Suns?

Marion was third in line behind Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire. He would have been #3 no matter who was coaching.

 

[Covert Rain]

Marion was third in line behind Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire. He would have been #3 no matter who was coaching.

I agree. However, we know Shawn has a higher opinion of himself. Just curious if he feels slighted so much by D'Antoni that he would ever consider playing for him again.

 

[Chaplin]

No actually I said my prognosticating had just as much merit as saying the Suns would have won a championship with KG comment. Maybe you didn't get that?

Chap your really funny. You know just as much as I do that I didn't literally mean ZERO. It's a generalization. Obviously, the Suns had to play defense every once in a while. I find it funny Chap that you blast people all the time for taking things so literally. Yet you feel the need to point out a generalization of Zero defense. Funny. Very funny.

Funny or not, but you still haven't put forward concrete answers to why the Suns play zero defense. Let alone concrete reasons why Kevin Garnett wouldn't have helped. A generalization works if you make sense to begin with.

Besides, if a team plays "zero" defense, or let's just say below average defense , what better way to at least try to improve it than to trade for the best defensive player in the NBA?

 

[Covert Rain]

Funny or not, but you still haven't put forward concrete answers to why the Suns play zero defense.

Were we not in the botton half of the league in team defense last year? Again, just a generalization. We were not a defensive power house. Are you saying we were?

I was making a generalization that you cannot go from being a bad defensive team to a good one just by adding one player. It takes a committment to defense from your coach. We didn't have that IMO.

Let alone concrete reasons why Kevin Garnett wouldn't have helped. A generalization works if you make sense to begin with..

I didn't say he wouldn't have helped. In fact, if you had read what I said, I said he would have helped (just not helped win a title). Maybe you missed it? Also, I provided the most concrete reason of all. D'Antoni. Maybe you missed that as well? I don't think "making sense" is the issue...maybe "understanding" what I am saying is.

Besides, if a team plays "zero" defense, or let's just say below average defense , what better way to at least try to improve it than to trade for the best defensive player in the NBA?

I totally agree with you. I would have loved to have KG and think he would have made a positive impact. It just would'nt have been enough last year. D'Antoni was a huge problem IMO.

 

[BC867]

What I'd like to see is your criteria for a team to play "ZERO" defense.

SteelDog said "ZERO defense when compared to Boston". A bit of an exaggeration. but not far off the point.

How about recapping it as "not NBA caliber defense for a team with its eyes on the prize"? Which the Celtics won, by the way.