OT: Shawn Marion's Stupidity

[nowagimp]

I was making a generalization that you cannot go from being a bad defensive team to a good one just by adding one player. It takes a committment to defense from your coach. We didn't have that IMO.

Suns fans know that this statement is just not true, you should know better. In the year that amare was out('06), the suns were top 8 in the league on defense with KT and when he went down, they were just about dead last. this was because the suns had to double the post without him. the doubling led to open perimeter shooters and an increase in opponents 3 pt percentage from 32%(#2 in the NBA) with KT, to 40%, dead last without him. the net result was 6ppg scoring increase(102ppg-108ppg) when KT went out. the need to double the post would kill any defensive scheme porter would implement as well. KG going to the celtics meant that the post would not be doubled, ever. It also meant that perimeter defenders could be very aggressive and overplay as KG would shut down the points in the paint without fouling(unlike shaq). DA couldnt even use eddie house in the playoffs as he was posted so often. Gee last year I didnt see much posting of eddie by the lakers, I wonder why? LOL, take tim duncan off the spurs and they would be a terrible defensive team! Boris Diaw would just eat them up on the low block!

 

[Irish]

Repeating a myth does not make it true. It is simply not true that the Suns played ZERO defense under D'Antoni. They were almost exactly average. Last year the Hornets and Jazz were both worse than the Suns in terms of opponent shooting percentage.

The Suns stlye of not fouling guys making layups made their stats look worse than they were. The problem was no a total lack of defense but very poor low post defense due to size. The Suns were actually pretty good in terms of defensive points per possession; but too much double teaming left shooters open which was fatal against the Spurs.

This season the Suns biggest defensive problem is making turnovers that create opposition fast break points.

 

[Cheesebeef]

talent would have overcome whatever DA's coaching deficiencies.

 

[Irish]

talent would have overcome whatever DA's coaching deficiencies.

Particularly BIG talent.

Losing JJ was a huge problem because he's as big a power forward playing the wing.

 

[Chaplin]

talent would have overcome whatever DA's coaching deficiencies.

That's a fact. Arguably, talent DID overcome his deficiencies, just not enough.

 

[nowagimp]

That's a fact. Arguably, talent DID overcome his deficiencies, just not enough.

Talent also apparently overcame Doc Rivers coaching defficiencies w/respect to Phil Jackson didnt they? Before last year nobody thought rivers was even a good coach.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Talent also apparently overcame Doc Rivers coaching defficiencies w/respect to Phil Jackson didnt they? Before last year nobody thought rivers was even a good coach.

yup.

 

[Covert Rain]

Suns fans know that this statement is just not true, you should know better. In the year that amare was out('06), the suns were top 8 in the league on defense with KT and when he went down, they were just about dead last. this was because the suns had to double the post without him. the doubling led to open perimeter shooters and an increase in opponents 3 pt percentage from 32%(#2 in the NBA) with KT, to 40%, dead last without him. the net result was 6ppg scoring increase(102ppg-108ppg) when KT went out. the need to double the post would kill any defensive scheme porter would implement as well. KG going to the celtics meant that the post would not be doubled, ever. It also meant that perimeter defenders could be very aggressive and overplay as KG would shut down the points in the paint without fouling(unlike shaq). DA couldnt even use eddie house in the playoffs as he was posted so often. Gee last year I didnt see much posting of eddie by the lakers, I wonder why? LOL, take tim duncan off the spurs and they would be a terrible defensive team! Boris Diaw would just eat them up on the low block!

Well I am a Suns fan and I don't agree it's not true. Look, nobody is saying that the Suns never talked about defense but D'Antoni is not a defensive minded coach. So your right. I do know better. Seriously, though even if some of the Suns bad luck had not reared it's ugly head it was no guarantee we would have gotten a title. I would like to believe that but D'antoni to me was a problem.

The facts are we had zero titles under D'Antoni. If D'Antoni turns the Knicks around and wins a title there, I will eat my words.

Repeating a myth does not make it true. It is simply not true that the Suns played ZERO defense under D'Antoni. They were almost exactly average. Last year the Hornets and Jazz were both worse than the Suns in terms of opponent shooting percentage.

This has already been explained. The Suns were a below average defensive team. Not the worst by any stretch. Zero defense was just a generalization when compared to teams like Boston.

talent would have overcome whatever DA's coaching deficiencies.

I had always hoped that was true. IMO it just wasn't. There have been plenty of talented teams that had enough talent to win a title but didn't. Again, I will eat my words if the guy wins a title in New York. Let's just say I am not worried about that every coming true.

 

[nowagimp]

Well I am a Suns fan and I don't agree it's not true. Look, nobody is saying that the Suns never talked about defense but D'Antoni is not a defensive minded coach. So your right. I do know better. Seriously, though even if some of the Suns bad luck had not reared it's ugly head it was no guarantee we would have gotten a title. I would like to believe that but D'antoni to me was a problem.

The facts are we had zero titles under D'Antoni. If D'Antoni turns the Knicks around and wins a title there, I will eat my words.



This has already been explained. The Suns were a below average defensive team. Not the worst by any stretch. Zero defense was just a generalization when compared to teams like Boston.



I had always hoped that was true. IMO it just wasn't. There have been plenty of talented teams that had enough talent to win a title but didn't. Again, I will eat my words if the guy wins a title in New York. Let's just say I am not worried about that every coming true.

the rockets were the 3rd best defensive team in the NBA with a coach that wasnt considered "defensive minded" by anyone(addelman). Players are who they are, and no coach can prevent being abused down low when you dont have a big man to defend down there. Facts are pretty much ********. last night the suns alomost lost to the grizzlies because mayo ate the suns up. only LB shooting 10-13 saved the suns. Does this mean that Porters defenses cant defend strong '2' guards. Of course not, but the matchups were not in the suns favor as they had to defend rudy gay AND mayo.

Fact Phil Jackson hasnt won a championship without kobe plus shaq or without MJ. Does that mean that unless PJ gets another MJ or kobe and shaq he cant win? Silly nonsense these "facts".

 

[Covert Rain]

the rockets were the 3rd best defensive team in the NBA with a coach that wasnt considered "defensive minded" by anyone(addelman). Players are who they are, and no coach can prevent being abused down low when you dont have a big man to defend down there. Facts are pretty much ********. last night the suns alomost lost to the grizzlies because mayo ate the suns up. only LB shooting 10-13 saved the suns. Does this mean that Porters defenses cant defend strong '2' guards. Of course not, but the matchups were not in the suns favor as they had to defend rudy gay AND mayo.

Fact Phil Jackson hasnt won a championship without kobe plus shaq or without MJ. Does that mean that unless PJ gets another MJ or kobe and shaq he cant win? Silly nonsense these "facts".

No titles for D'Antoni is not a silly fact. Just a fact. I do agree that there has to be a certain alignment of the stars. You have to have the right mix of players, the right mix of coaches and right mix of matchups come playoff time. They are all factors IMO to winning a championship. No one player, one coach etc...trumps all. It's a combination of things.

So, I get what your trying to say. However, I don't believe for one second that any coach could have coached those Bulls teams to a title. Maybe another "great" coach but not any coach. There are many that believe Phil without those players would never have one a title. We have no way of knowing that. I still think he is a great coach.

At any rate, D'Antoni doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence. Let him win a few titles.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I had always hoped that was true. IMO it just wasn't.

can you name me any bigger three than Amare, Nash and KG to have not won a title together? It never happened so I'm not sure what you were hoping about previously. DA couldn't have screwed that up and Kerr wouldn't have been able to screw up PJ Brown and the like coming here to play for peanuts because of KG/Nash title run.

whatever DA does in NY is immaterial to the conversation because again, I'm not saying he's a superior coach. He's a good coach who wasn't good enough to elevate what was a contender into a title winner. The difference is that the Nash/Amare/KG triumvirate wouldn't have been a contender - they would have been a lock.

 

[Covert Rain]

The difference is that the Nash/Amare/KG triumvirate wouldn't have been a contender - they would have been a lock.

I guess we shall have to agree to disagree on that point. D'Antoni would have prevented that IMO.

Man...I wish we could have known though. When that Marion for KG trade was out there, it sure seemed like a legit posibility. Now the Celtics have a title and we are at that preverbial window closing moment.

 

[elindholm]

Even without Thomas, the Suns' first-shot defense was decent -- far below average for playoff teams, but not horrible. It was the defensive rebounding that killed them. If anyone can post "defensive points per possession" for the D'Antoni era, I assume we would find that the Suns were near the bottom of the league every season, except possibly not the Thomas/Diaw one.

Garnett would have helped enormously with the defensive rebounding, of course.

 

[Irish]

Even without Thomas, the Suns' first-shot defense was decent -- far below average for playoff teams, but not horrible. It was the defensive rebounding that killed them. If anyone can post "defensive points per possession" for the D'Antoni era, I assume we would find that the Suns were near the bottom of the league every season, except possibly not the Thomas/Diaw one.

Garnett would have helped enormously with the defensive rebounding, of course.

Do far the Suns rebounding is a lot better than last year (+1.5). what is really remarkable is the overall reduction in rebounds. 38.4 by the Suns and only 36.9 by their opponents. Last year the Suns grabbed 41.5 while opponents grabbed 43.9. Year before was with KT was 40.5 to 42.8. In 2005-06 it was 41.9 to 45.9.

Their offense is not bad, but turnovers at 17.4 versus 14.4 a year ago and 14.5 the year before (compared to 15.2 by opponents). With fewer possessions, this is clearly unacceptable.

 

[Covert Rain]

Do far the Suns rebounding is a lot better than last year (+1.5). what is really remarkable is the overall reduction in rebounds. 38.4 by the Suns and only 36.9 by their opponents. Last year the Suns grabbed 41.5 while opponents grabbed 43.9. Year before was with KT was 40.5 to 42.8. In 2005-06 it was 41.9 to 45.9.

Their offense is not bad, but turnovers at 17.4 versus 14.4 a year ago and 14.5 the year before (compared to 15.2 by opponents). With fewer possessions, this is clearly unacceptable.

Not only unacceptable but downright scary.

 

[elindholm]

Do far the Suns rebounding is a lot better than last year (+1.5). what is really remarkable is the overall reduction in rebounds.

That's due to the slower pace, so I don't find it particularly remarkable.

38.4 by the Suns and only 36.9 by their opponents...

The more relevant numbers are rebound percentages, available on ESPN.com.

Their offense is not bad, but turnovers at 17.4 versus 14.4 a year ago and 14.5 the year before (compared to 15.2 by opponents). With fewer possessions, this is clearly unacceptable.

I agree that the turnovers are alarming. Furthermore, I would guess that fewer of them are due to offensive fouls than has been the case in recent seasons. Stoudemire is more under control, so he is committing fewer offensive fouls, and Barbosa is playing less, so he is committing fewer as well. If the offensive fouls are down, then the "sloppiness/carelessness" turnovers are even more up this year than the 3-turnover gap would suggest.

 

[nashman]

Its 8 games in, its going to take some time to get used to the system. People should be happy we are still winning while clearly not playing at the level we are capable of. It will get better be patient. On a side note why is there a 5 page thread on Marion, let it go people he's gone and we were never going to have Amare and Garnett and Nash. They came out and said as much. Marion was a whiner but he busted his ass for the Suns for many years and I have no ill feelings towards him, its sports trades happen and don't happen deal with it.

 

[DeAnna]

Ok, I have a question: was there ever a KG for Amare trade talked about?

I keep hearing (again heard it today on radio) that it WAS NEVER MARION for KG. The deal supposedly was Amare for KG but the Celtics nixed it. They were pretty adamant about it; they had talked to both teams, NBA insiders, yada yada yada, but the Celtics did not want Amare. So I'm trying to find any published reports that it was Marion who nixed the deal because apparently that never happened?

 

[Covert Rain]

Ok, I have a question: was there ever a KG for Amare trade talked about?

I keep hearing (again heard it today on radio) that it WAS NEVER MARION for KG. The deal supposedly was Amare for KG but the Celtics nixed it. They were pretty adamant about it; they had talked to both teams, NBA insiders, yada yada yada, but the Celtics did not want Amare. So I'm trying to find any published reports that it was Marion who nixed the deal because apparently that never happened?

I guess it's who you believe. KG and Marion's agent and others had eluded to such a trade. KG eluded to it on a a local radio station interview and insiders were reporting Marion would never consider going to Boston. Which means somebody spoke to Marion or his agent...which means someone was discussing it.

Don't know if it was an actual discussion or a one sided discussion. I don't think we will ever know. Too much of these talks are informal and never released to the public. I don't take local insider information as gospel anymore then I do the national media. The loudest person I hear saying "never" is Gambo and as much as I love Gambo, I could make a list of how many times he has reported incorrect "insider" information. The funny thing is that Gambo himself was reporting on the Marion for KG (from supposed insider information).

The Marion rumors took place for several weeks before Amare was ever mentioned. I find it hard to beleive that if it was always about Amare...then why didn't Amare's name come up sooner? I personally have no idea but I do believe where there is smoke there is fire. Just my opinion.

 

[elindholm]

It was documented that Ainge requested, and received, permission to speak with Marion's agent about an extension. I don't know how much more of a smoking gun you could ask for.

 

[Bufalay]

It was documented that Ainge requested, and received, permission to speak with Marion's agent about an extension. I don't know how much more of a smoking gun you could ask for.

I have never seen these oft-mentioned documents.

 

[elindholm]

I have never seen these oft-mentioned documents.

I'll admit I never saw the pieces of paper, just quotes from them on the internet.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Im pretty confident the marion to boston then bostons stuff + KT + picks to Minnesota for KG was on the table in some form.

 

[cobbler]

can you name me any bigger three than Amare, Nash and KG to have not won a title together?

Easily.... Wilt, Baylor, and West

 

[Cheesebeef]

Easily.... Wilt, Baylor, and West

that's a good one. but at least those teams continually got to the Finals and lost to the greatest dynasty of all time. anyone else?