Pacers @ Suns 11-27-18

1Sun

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To your liking, but I am inclined to trust his judgement about who can execute in his system and who can't. He has seen much more of Melton and Okobo than we have and if he thought there was even a remote chance they would be better than Canaan they would probably be playing. What I find funny is that if he was doing everything you want him to do and it failed there would be a list of people in here complaining about those decisions as well. He's basically between a rock and a hard place and it will take some trades that bring in some more talent for him to get out of it.

How could anyone possibly play WORSE than Canaan and Ariza at this point without literally just handing the ball to the other team or shooting the ball in the wrong hoop? Considering that Canaan and Ariza have no future whatsoever with this team (and Canaan has no future in the NBA), while Jackson and Bridges are potentially franchise cornerstones and Okobo and Melton still at least have a prayer of a future here, it makes zero sense that Ariza and especially Canaan continue to get big minutes at their expense.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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Hmm I’m unsure I agree with the depth argument. Lately Holmes, JJ, and Crawford have been supplying pretty minutes and output. Now of course it kills us to play Canaan and when ariza and bridges combine for like 3-15 shooting, but in the last few games it hasn’t been lack of depth per se, that’s hurt.
That still makes the team about 8 deep with guys that can truly contribute and none of the depth includes any good play-makers outside of Booker. Of those 8 guys (Booker, Ayton, Warren, Bridges, JJ, Holmes, Ariza and Crawford) only about 5-6 of them have been consistent of late as Ariza, Bridges and JJ have all had up and down performances.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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That still makes the team about 8 deep with guys that can truly contribute and none of the depth includes any good play-makers outside of Booker. Of those 8 guys (Booker, Ayton, Warren, Bridges, JJ, Holmes, Ariza and Crawford) only about 5-6 of them have been consistent of late as Ariza, Bridges and JJ have all had up and down performances.
All good points.

We are definitely seeing improvement it’s just not showing in the win column. I have to believe it’s attributable to coaching adjustments, players understanding their roles, growth of youth, and the team beginning to gel. We might not actually see improvement in wins this year, but as long as we see steady improvement in these areas we are heading the right direction.
 

1Sun

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That still makes the team about 8 deep with guys that can truly contribute and none of the depth includes any good play-makers outside of Booker. Of those 8 guys (Booker, Ayton, Warren, Bridges, JJ, Holmes, Ariza and Crawford) only about 5-6 of them have been consistent of late as Ariza, Bridges and JJ have all had up and down performances.

But at least Bridges and JJ are trying. Ariza has clearly checked out and yet is being rewarded for that. As for Canaan, yes he is trying, but he contributes absolutely nothing positive, and there are at least three other players on the roster who at least have a chance of contributing SOMETHING...if only Igor would give them the chance.
 

JCSunsfan

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Yet you don't see an issue with coaching? I still have no idea what he's trying to do....what's our identity? I don't see development. Adjustments? I believe it's going to get worse ..I hope I'm wrong
You don’t see development? Then you are not watching or you don’t understand basketball. This team is miles ahead of where it started this year. It took this long to just be clear on what we actually have on the roster. The rotation is finally settling down. I know people would love to sit Ariza and Canaan but you can’t run with a 6 man rotation. The only reasonable next move as far as playing time is Okobo replacing Canaan. But Igor is working on that. Both Okobo and Melton are doing stints in the Dleague to see who will earn that spot. I like the idea of making young guys earn playing time.
 

1Sun

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You don’t see development? Then you are not watching or you don’t understand basketball. This team is miles ahead of where it started this year. It took this long to just be clear on what we actually have on the roster. The rotation is finally settling down. I know people would love to sit Ariza and Canaan but you can’t run with a 6 man rotation. The only reasonable next move as far as playing time is Okobo replacing Canaan. But Igor is working on that. Both Okobo and Melton are doing stints in the Dleague to see who will earn that spot. I like the idea2 of making young guys earn playing time.

You would still play Ariza at the expense of more minutes for Jackson, Bridges and even Daniels, even though Ariza is clearly checked out?

Nine man rotation:

Booker
Ayton
Warren
Bridges
Jackson
Holmes
Crawford
Okobo
Daniels

Can't possibly be worse than gifting Ariza and Canaan extended minutes. Heck, I would give Bender or Anderson another shot over a tanking Ariza. At least they try when they're on the court.

Heck, at this point I would settle for Igor at least partially learning his lesson and benching one of the two.

Remember when I was chastised for complaining that the Suns were doing nothing with their second two-way contract? Looks like they could use someone right about now...
 
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JCSunsfan

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Aside from the way he calls timeouts and some substitution patterns, I am very happy with Igor's coaching. He has clear continuity in the way he is formulating the overall rotation. There is a clear offense. The team is starting to play defense. In spite of being blown out in early games, this team is still playing hard for him. They are now competitive.

He has a pattern regarding playing time.

1. Vets get the preference first. (Anderson, Ariza, Canaan to start the year)
2. Vets gets time to adjust and produce. (First ten games or so)
3. But vet do eventually have to produce consistently or they can lose their spots. (Anderson, Canaan)
4. Young players have to earn it. (TJ and Mikal both produced in minutes given)
5. If young players start to consistently out-produce the vets in front of them, they will move up. (TJ over Anderson, Mikal essentially moved Canaan out of the starting spot)
6. If the young players do not produce well enough, they will not displace the player in front of them, even if the vet is not playing that well. (JJ has not replaced Ariza, Okobo and Melton have not replaced Canaan.)
7. Igor is more deliberate about this. He does not hurry with his decisions. He gives players time to truly show what they have. It's not as fast as most fans want, but his pace is probably more wise.

For the first time in years, there seems to be a very deliberate way of sorting out playing time.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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In addition we finally have assists. The last few years it was essentially every man for themselves. Now we routinely have high team assist numbers (at least compared to last year). That tells me better more cohesive team play, at least on the offensive end of the court.
 

1Sun

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Aside from the way he calls timeouts and some substitution patterns

[which is much of what distinguishes a head coach from an assistant coach],

I am very happy with Igor's coaching. He has clear continuity in the way he is formulating the overall rotation

[for the last few games, perhaps, but before that he was all over the place, even after certain line-ups and rotations were clearly working while others weren't].

There is a clear offense

[that is still last in the NBA in efficiency and is over-reliant on passing along the perimeter and camping our franchise center at the high post, rather than the low post where he belongs].

The team is starting to play defense

[that much is true, and I will give Kokoskov credit here, except to say that he was also at the helm when we were giving up a practice lay-up drill during games, so I would limit the credit he gets for correcting the awful play for which he was responsible in the first place].

In spite of being blown out in early games, this team is still playing hard for him

[some players, yes, but others, especially Trevor Ariza, absolutely not].

They are now competitive

[that is true, but again like the improvement in defense, I would limit the credit Igor gets for being competitive now when they first were historically non-competitive under his watch].

He has a pattern regarding playing time.

1. Vets get the preference first. (Anderson, Ariza, Canaan to start the year)

[This is an archaic approach and largely what got Mike D'Antoni fired here and why we fell off a cliff every time Steve Nash wasn't in the game to rescue us. It is critical, especially for building a contender for the future and developing the young cornerstones of the franchise, that the best group of players, at least for the team's future if not those who are the best at the moment, get the playing time. Nobody should be gifted a spot or minutes just because he is a vet, especially for a young team that needs to learn how to win. If a vet is good and productive enough to help the team build the way it needs to build, then absolutely give him playing time. But if a vet is contributing nothing, or worse is a negative presence or influence, playing him anyway is at best going to stunt the team's development and at worst is going to encourage players to emulate the vets' bad habits in order to "earn" playing time and then will ultimately drive a wedge and cause a rift in the locker room with younger players grousing about unfairly being deprived of opportunity.]

2. Vets gets time to adjust and produce. (First ten games or so)

[It's been twenty games, and Ariza and Canaan are still being gifted playing time, Ariza despite his total lack of effort and Canaan despite his total lack of production.]

3. But vet do eventually have to produce consistently or they can lose their spots. (Anderson, Canaan)

[Canaan lost his starting spot but is still getting way too many minutes. Ariza has lost nothing despite doing his best impression of Eric Bledsoe from the beginning of last season.]

4. Young players have to earn it. (TJ and Mikal both produced in minutes given)

[While vets don't. Not exactly the way to build good camaraderie between the young core and the vet "leaders", particularly in situations, like with Ariza, where the vets are doing everything they can to be a bad influence. Meanwhile, though TJ, the relative vet, has been rewarded with steady extensive playing time, Bridges, the relative young player, has been benched or had his minutes reduced after performances as good as TJ's. Again no consistency here other than to give undeserved preference to the vets just because they are vets, which again is a surefire formula for long-term failure. The vets and young players all need to be held accountable equally for bad play. And the vets and young players all need to be rewarded equally for good play.]

5. If young players start to consistently out-produce the vets in front of them, they will move up. (TJ over Anderson, Mikal essentially moved Canaan out of the starting spot)

[Jackson and Bridges have not moved up over Ariza, despite this axiom. And no young player is even being given the opportunity to out-produce Canaan, despite the fact that Canaan is not producing anything and that it is a virtual automatic that the worst than can happen with Okobo or Melton is the same level of production, or lack thereof, as Canaan, only with the opportunity to learn from it rather than just sitting on the bench and doing nothing other than watch Canaan continue to get minutes he doesn't deserve.]

6. If the young players do not produce well enough, they will not displace the player in front of them, even if the vet is not playing that well. (JJ has not replaced Ariza, Okobo and Melton have not replaced Canaan.)

[And yet JJ has out-performed Ariza, and Okobo and Melton have not even been given an opportunity.]

7. Igor is more deliberate about this. He does not hurry with his decisions. He gives players time to truly show what they have. It's not as fast as most fans want, but his pace is probably more wise.

[Deliberate? Or just stubborn? Or clueless? The need to allocate Ariza and Canaan's playing time elsewhere is pretty much obvious to everyone not named Igor Kokoskov. Even lowly blog writers, including some quoted on this board, see this. What more could Igor possibly need to know???]

For the first time in years, there seems to be a very deliberate way of sorting out playing time.

[And unfortunately that "deliberate way" is a surefire formula for failure and ultimately for dissension between the young players and the vets.]

Just some thoughts above in response to your points.
 
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Cheesebeef

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the team is definitely improving in the competitive department. The only thing that REALLY bothers me is just the complete and utter non-use of Ayton on Offense. Almost every point he gets he has to create on his own, or is a feed for a dunk. For a team that ranks at the bottom of the league offensively, they have a MASSIVE weapon down on the block who should be able to draw fouls and open up shooters when double-teamed and in the four games I watched soup to nuts while I was home, I could only remember a handful of times total that he got the ball down low, as opposed to bring him to the high-post, where he's not even facing the basket. That literally lets teams play 5 on 4 on D because Koko's offense has taken Ayton out of the play.

The kid's got so much natural talent on offense and is the only one that can really create for himself or others besides Booker and yet we run next to nothing for him. It's a little infuriating.

Good to see his rebounding numbers still steady and in the last couple games I watched, he was doing a little better protecting the rim.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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the team is definitely improving in the competitive department. The only thing that REALLY bothers me is just the complete and utter non-use of Ayton on Offense. Almost every point he gets he has to create on his own, or is a feed for a dunk. For a team that ranks at the bottom of the league offensively, they have a MASSIVE weapon down on the block who should be able to draw fouls and open up shooters when double-teamed and in the four games I watched soup to nuts while I was home, I could only remember a handful of times total that he got the ball down low, as opposed to bring him to the high-post, where he's not even facing the basket. That literally lets teams play 5 on 4 on D because Koko's offense has taken Ayton out of the play.

The kid's got so much natural talent on offense and is the only one that can really create for himself or others besides Booker and yet we run next to nothing for him. It's a little infuriating.

Good to see his rebounding numbers still steady and in the last couple games I watched, he was doing a little better protecting the rim.
Agreed and while it would be great to see him be more aggressive when he gets the ball in positions to make a move it would help a lot if he was getting the ball more often in those positions.

I don't necessarily have an issue with his role on the high post and in the pick and roll, but they need to at least carve out a dozen or so post ups for him throughout the game. He could also be an outlet in the post when the initial action didn't create an open opportunity.
 

1tinsoldier

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Considering that Canaan and Ariza have no future whatsoever with this team (and Canaan has no future in the NBA), while Jackson and Bridges are potentially franchise cornerstones and Okobo and Melton still at least have a prayer of a future here, it makes zero sense that Ariza and especially Canaan continue to get big minutes at their expense.

as a fan, i agree.
it's in this team's best interest to develop it's young players
and i'd rather watch the young players
but it is in the coach's best interest to notch some wins,
so he values the vet's experience

Ariza might be more complicated, since you don't want to diminish his value if the Suns are interested in moving him to a playoff team. unfortunately, Ariza isn't increasing his stock when he plays either.
 

1Sun

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as a fan, i agree.
it's in this team's best interest to develop it's young players
and i'd rather watch the young players
but it is in the coach's best interest to notch some wins,
so he values the vet's experience

Ariza might be more complicated, since you don't want to diminish his value if the Suns are interested in moving him to a playoff team. unfortunately, Ariza isn't increasing his stock when he plays either.

In fact, Ariza is doing significant damage to his trade value every minute he plays, not to mention risking injury (especially playing at nowhere near full effort) that would destroy his trade value entirely.
 

1Sun

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as a fan, i agree.
it's in this team's best interest to develop it's young players
and i'd rather watch the young players
but it is in the coach's best interest to notch some wins,
so he values the vet's experience

But if playing the young players IS the best chance to notch some wins, there is no reason whatsoever to play the vets. In this case, Canaan is the worst possible option at the point of all on the roster. He contributes nothing on the floor AND he has no future.
 

1tinsoldier

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Aside from the way he calls timeouts and some substitution patterns, I am very happy with Igor's coaching
...
He has a pattern regarding playing time.
...
For the first time in years, there seems to be a very deliberate way of sorting out playing time.

of the limited 3 aspects of coaching you mention, you like 1
-- a consistent philosophy of distributing playing time
but even in that 1 area, many of us have legitimate gripes,
notably a lack of consistency, as exemplified a couple of games by Canaan getting more minutes than anyone from either team on the court besides Booker, and JJ starting over TJ despite TJ started the season hot and JJ not.

it's his lack of leadership that is most alarming:
1. tell JJ when he's on the floor his job is to defend, slash, dish, and take no more than 1 or 2 outside shots.
2. tell Ayton to fight for position for every rebound, instead of watching if he isn't close on D, and on O running the other way as soon as a Suns' shot is in the air
3. tell Ayton to fight for offensive position, run plays to get him inside position, instead of having him predictably set picks from 30 feet out which every opposing coach will prepare for.
4. tell Ayton to jump. run lob plays for him that he can catch if he JUMPS with his more athletic body than just about every center he faces.
5. tell every player to aggressively foul out a few times to test their limits (and earn their pay)

how do i know he's not telling them things like that?
i see the same mistakes repeated night after night
you'd never see the same mistakes repeated night after night on the Spurs
 

1tinsoldier

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But if playing the young players IS the best chance to notch some wins, there is no reason whatsoever to play the vets. In this case, Canaan is the worst possible option at the point of all on the roster. He contributes nothing on the floor AND he has no future.

indeed i believe Igor is a little more likely to win today's game with more youth than vet considering this roster, and a lot much more likely to win more games in the weeks and months ahead if he invests wisely now
 

1Sun

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indeed i believe Igor is a little more likely to win today's game with more youth than vet considering this roster, and a lot much more likely to win more games in the weeks and months ahead if he invests wisely now

And yet he inexplicably continues to give extensive playing to Canaan and Ariza with absolutely no upside to doing so (other than Ariza suddenly snapping out of it and deciding to put forth some freaking effort or Canaan suddenly transforming into a serviceable point guard out of nowhere).
 

1Sun

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Well. He can’t play Canaan too many minutes now.

Indeed. Again, should have never come to this. Kokoskov needs to be much more aware and decisive when a player's poor production is noticeably dragging the team down.
 

Cheesebeef

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Agreed and while it would be great to see him be more aggressive when he gets the ball in positions to make a move it would help a lot if he was getting the ball more often in those positions.

I don't necessarily have an issue with his role on the high post and in the pick and roll, but they need to at least carve out a dozen or so post ups for him throughout the game. He could also be an outlet in the post when the initial action didn't create an open opportunity.

agreed. he's got such natural talent on offense, but he needs to touches to refine that part of his game, which could make him dominant on that end. Only way he's going to get to that level is live game-situations.
 

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Booker does seem to put more effort in defensively when he's playing at home than on the road. I don't think he'll ever be a good defender but if he could be average that would be a solid improvement.
 

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I understand all the points but we are still the worst team in the NBA.... the freaking worst! Now we are saying well the team is competitive cause we don't lose by 20 every game? Is that what it's become? Honestly if I were to poll before the season and said do you believe after 20 games the suns will have the worst record? How many are saying yes..... that is not freaking improvement....that is not a coach who is leading and providing direction. Get out with this competitive nonsense we are dead stinking last. Even after all that this is my team and I stand by them 100% .....but I still believe wrong coach wrong GM and wrong direction.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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I understand all the points but we are still the worst team in the NBA.... the freaking worst! Now we are saying well the team is competitive cause we don't lose by 20 every game? Is that what it's become? Honestly if I were to poll before the season and said do you believe after 20 games the suns will have the worst record? How many are saying yes..... that is not freaking improvement....that is not a coach who is leading and providing direction. Get out with this competitive nonsense we are dead stinking last. Even after all that this is my team and I stand by them 100% .....but I still believe wrong coach wrong GM and wrong direction.
It's human nature for expectation to change when circumstances change. If we had all the same expectations after our horrible start we would simply be setting ourselves up for major disappointment.
 

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