Patterns of Thought

[Mitch]

These are the patterns that I would like to put in question:

1. Fans leaning toward the higher status, more highly hyped, more highly paid, more highly drafted players.

2. Fans jumping to conclusions about players in their first two or three years---essentially writing a player off.

Questions:

1. Who are the top 3 QBs in the NFL today?

2. Do you feel a sense of desperation for the team when one of the top draft picks or most highly paid free agents doesn't perform?

3. If you could re-claim three Cardinals who got away---who were either traded or left as free agents, who would they be?

Likely Answers:

1. Rodgers, Brady and Brees. Fact: only one of them was a first rounder---and he plummeted in the first round---and did not start until his 4th year in the NFL.

2. Perhaps this is why you wanted Leinart over Warner?

3. Would it be Anquan Boldin, Karlos Dansby and Calvin Pace?

Fact: Pace was the only 1st rounder---and he didn't develop until his 4th year (similar to Alan Branch---only much more noticeably).

My points:

1. Thank goodness we have a head coach who stresses competition, and is willing to start a rookie 5th rounder in front of a veteran like Edgerrin James, if the rookie is looking better in practice. Or is willing to start a washed up veteran (Warner) in front of a top ten draft pick.

2. John Skelton applies to BOTH questions. When teams draft a QB in the 5th round these days, it's expected to be for the #3 QB spot, right? And---hey--despite going 8-4 as a rookie and sophomore having been given as little reps and preparation with the first team as possible, the fact that he was inconsistent means---the jury is in, right?---he will ALWAYS be inconsistent...forget about him...because there is no chance for improvement?

Lastly---what's so funny to read these days on the board is NOT the usual excuses for highly hyped players not getting the job done (like---"he was from Philly and didn't understand the new offense")---but excuses for players who DO get the job done, as in "the defense carried him."

If 8-4---when the rest of games were 5-15 isn't good enough for you and you want more glorified stats---that's a pattern of thinking that defies logic.

 

[Pariah]

Questions:

1. Who are the top 3 QBs in the NFL today?
Rodgers, Brees, Brady

2. Do you feel a sense of desperation for the team when one of the top draft picks or most highly paid free agents doesn't perform? Somewhat

3. If you could re-claim three Cardinals who got away---who were either traded or left as free agents, who would they be? This is an impossible question. I think if we'd hung on to Big back when we let him go, our line would look a lot different now. I hated that departure, but I don't want the 2012 Big back.

I still don't like the trade of DRC, but I don't think we would have drafted PP21 of he'd stayed. Obviously, I like Peterson better.

But yeah, I'd also like to have Pace, Boldin and Dansby back, too.

To your general point, however: I'd consider picks in the second and even the top of the third "High draft picks."

 

[TigToad]

For question four, I went with Dansby and Rolle. I loved Q, but don't want him back after walking off the field after the NFC championship game. Yeah, I hold a grudge. I'm iffy on Pace as well. Plus, I wouldn't take Dansby or Rolle at their current salaries... or Pace for that matter.

I'm not feeling desperate about the Cardinals holding onto talent or their drafting. I think we've improved significantly in this area since I became a fan and I'm pleased with the direction we're hading in this regard. The desperation comes when we don't have new talent coming in. I don't care if it is first roudn talent or 6th round talent. For example, Dan Williams probably won't live up to his draft status, but Washington will outplay it. Together, we did alright value wise. I'm good with that.

 

[Darkside]

These are the patterns that I would like to put in question:

1. Fans leaning toward the higher status, more highly hyped, more highly paid, more highly drafted players.

2. Fans jumping to conclusions about players in their first two or three years---essentially writing a player off.

Questions:

1. Who are the top 3 QBs in the NFL today?

2. Do you feel a sense of desperation for the team when one of the top draft picks or most highly paid free agents doesn't perform?

3. If you could re-claim three Cardinals who got away---who were either traded or left as free agents, who would they be?

Likely Answers:

1. Rodgers, Brady and Brees. Fact: only one of them was a first rounder---and he plummeted in the first round---and did not start until his 4th year in the NFL.

2. Perhaps this is why you wanted Leinart over Warner?

3. Would it be Anquan Boldin, Karlos Dansby and Calvin Pace?

Fact: Pace was the only 1st rounder---and he didn't develop until his 4th year (similar to Alan Branch---only much more noticeably).

My points:

1. Thank goodness we have a head coach who stresses competition, and is willing to start a rookie 5th rounder in front of a veteran like Edgerrin James, if the rookie is looking better in practice. Or is willing to start a washed up veteran (Warner) in front of a top ten draft pick.

2. John Skelton applies to BOTH questions. When teams draft a QB in the 5th round these days, it's expected to be for the #3 QB spot, right? And---hey--despite going 8-4 as a rookie and sophomore having been given as little reps and preparation with the first team as possible, the fact that he was inconsistent means---the jury is in, right?---he will ALWAYS be inconsistent...forget about him...because there is no chance for improvement?

Lastly---what's so funny to read these days on the board is NOT the usual excuses for highly hyped players not getting the job done (like---"he was from Philly and didn't understand the new offense")---but excuses for players who DO get the job done, as in "the defense carried him."

If 8-4---when the rest of games were 5-15 isn't good enough for you and you want more glorified stats---that's a pattern of thinking that defies logic.

1. Fans leaning toward the higher status, more highly hyped, more highly paid, more highly drafted players.

I don't know what's wrong with this frankly. I'm not disagreeing with you, because I think fans do expect more from these high picks. I just want to feel somewhat secure that our organization knows what it's doing drafting these high picks. In theory it should be easier to evaluate the positives of a high pick because they're so much better in the college game than their counterparts. If a team sucks enough to get a really high #1, you'd like to think the FO could reward the fans with a player who could make a difference. Getting lucky and finding a diamond in the ruff in the lower rounds isn't that impressive to me. There's a difference between developing talent and scouting it.

2. Fans jumping to conclusions about players in their first two or three years---essentially writing a player off.

I'm not sure most die-hard fans--those fans who really watch the game, the intricacies of football--do this. I'm talking about the guys watching the Oline while a play is happening, checking for breakdowns, stuff like that. I'm not sure that happens. I still believe most players at the skill positions start peaking around their 6th year and stay at a high level after that until age starts diminishing their game. That being said, even in their first few years a player should show improvement, even if it's only incremental improvement. Good or great players rarely regress, they're always improving even if it's in small chunks.

Sounds like you're talking about Skelton with this post, and I don't think most people have written him off. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they have. There's nothing wrong with pointing out a players faults, it doesn't mean that poster and fan have given up on the dude. There are some here who obviously think he'll never be a good QB and I agree with you that it's ignorant to really think that when the guy has improved every single year with us. In my opinion he's improved significantly from year to year. Accuracy is a huge problem though and very difficult to improve. You can fix the feet and hip rotation and windup and that will improve it, but overall if you're inaccurate it's hard to fix.

1. Who are the top 3 QBs in the NFL today?

Joe Flacco according to Joe Flacco. Seriously though: Probably Rodgers, Brady, Brees, and you can really put them in any order. I can't get over Brees 71% completion percentage last year though, I'll take that any day. Rodgers last year 68% (Kurt Warner #'s), Brady was 65% (that's the LOWEST completion % Brees has had in 10 years, except for his first year with the Chargers when he only played 1 game). That's also Brees' average over 10 years, 154 games. His average. In 2010 Brees completed 68%, in 2009 he was again at 70%, so it's no fluke. I'll take a dude with that completion %age any day, any day. And it's not like he's throwing to the same dudes Brady is with two spectacular TE's, he had Randy Moss, Wes Welker; I mean my God. And Rodgers has stellar receivers, real deep threats like Jennings, Driver, Jordy Nelson, Finley. Nobody even knew Brees receiving core until he started throwing to them.

2. Do you feel a sense of desperation for the team when one of the top draft picks or most highly paid free agents doesn't perform?

Absolutely. Although I wouldn't call it desperation. More like a complete "same-old-Cardinals" feeling. They get paid big bucks for evaluating these dudes. That's all they do, all day long, day after day, year after year. I expect results. You're going to miss on some dudes, everyone does, but I'd expect it to be above what we've done. We're getting better, but we're not where I'd like to be.

3. If you could re-claim three Cardinals who got away---who were either traded or left as free agents, who would they be?

Can I choose Don Coryell? I wouldn't pick who you'd think: I'd reclaim Garrison Hearst, comeback player of the year twice. Really hard to do even one time and be relevant. Aeneas Williams, just because I think he should have retired where he started. And Pat Tilman because, well just because.

Lastly---what's so funny to read these days on the board is NOT the usual excuses for highly hyped players not getting the job done (like---"he was from Philly and didn't understand the new offense")---but excuses for players who DO get the job done, as in "the defense carried him."

The defense did carry Skelton; so did special teams--special teams carried both QB's all year and has helped our team for several years. It's supported by actual #'s. That doesn't mean he's a bad QB, people use that FACT to sway dudes from getting too excited about his win-loss record, which is the only thing Skelton lovers can point to (and rightfully so). You certainly can't point to statistics with Skelton or QB rating or TD to INT ratio or any of the normal QB metrics to evaluate a QB. It's the same with Tebow--everything screams that he can't win games, statistically, but he does. Denver also had a good defense, which helped him. That doesn't make him a stellar QB. Doesn't make either of them bad either. But when evaluating a QB those metrics are there for a reason, because the best QB's do own those metrics, like completion %age, INT's, TD's, Yards, 3rd down conversions, and QB rating. I love Skelton and hope he develops into our QBOTF, but he isn't there, and his #'s really truly suck. There's nothing wrong with honestly evaluating his progress. And let's be honest, he's progressed phenomenally, in my opinion, every single year he's been here with little help (again in my opinion). If he were to ever get some quality starter-type mentoring I think he'd develop really quick. I can't remember who it was, but someone posted that Skelton was stupid, like some caveman or something LOL, and I have the opposite opinion entirely--I think without starter-reps, without a full offseason, and even prior to that, with little guidance, I'm totally impressed with his ability to improve. That's what you want. Bigtime. He's impressed me a heck of a lot, but I'm not afraid to be honest about his #'s and performance.

Apologies for the long post. LOL.

 

[Goldfield]

I keep Boldin. I still dont understand how that turned so sour.
I keep Wayne Gandy. He had a few more years in him.
I dont play hardball with Kurt Warner over a contract.

Also, I think if we kept Boldin & Gandy, Warner would not have retired yet.

 

[TJ]

Also, I think if we kept Boldin & Gandy, Warner would not have retired yet.

Warner retired in January 2010, long before free agency started that season and long before the Boldin trade.

Warner has stated many times he made up his mind during the 2009 season about retirement and the hit against the Saints in the playoffs was essentially the icing on the cake.

Gandy and Boldin had nothing to do with his decision.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think Warner knew he was done before the 2009 playoffs started. His concussion earlier in the year against the Rams clinched it. Remember how he was shaking hands and hugging all the staff and teammates during the 4ths against New Orleans? That looked like a guy who knew he was in uniform for the last time.

 

[Duckjake]

Warner retired in January 2010, long before free agency started that season and long before the Boldin trade.

Warner has stated many times he made up his mind during the 2009 season about retirement and the hit against the Saints in the playoffs was essentially the icing on the cake.

Gandy and Boldin had nothing to do with his decision.

Didn't Warner later say that one reason he retired when he did was he didn't like the direction the team was going with personnel or something to that effect?

Rather than guys I'd like to have back for 2012 I have 3 I wish had never left:

1. Calvin Pace- we struggled for years at the OLB position and I think he could have made a big difference in putting pressure on the QB in the SB vs Pittsburgh.

2. Matt Leinart- for all the nasty things people have written about him he'd still have been better than DeWreck Anderson and Max Hall. So we wouldn't have had to endure that horrible 2010 season and we'd have had his Hollywood presence to get us more press.

3. Leonard Davis- because then we'd have drafted Adrian Peterson instead of Levi Brown.

 

[TJ]

Didn't Warner later say that one reason he retired when he did was he didn't like the direction the team was going with personnel or something to that effect?

I don't think so.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't think so.

I remember something along those lines not too long ago actually. I'll try to find the thread that discussed it but it won't be easy. I could be wrong though.

 

[Stout]

Bravo, Mitch. Bravo.

 

[Garthshort]

Mitch, thanks. Your questions should take a big bite out of the next 10 days, when at last we'll get some real FB news. After reading your post and the various answers about players we've lost, it seems to me that we haven't lost that many. Q, to me, seemed the biggest loss, even though he's on the downside of a great career. Dansby, at this stage of his career, has more talent, but Q could have been a security blanket for our young QB's, and that is why I consider him our biggest loss. I think that Rolle, and Pace are overrated, and while talented, DRC hasn't, as yet, played up to what I consider his capabilities. Dansby is VG, but DW has been an able replacement. JMO.

 

[Mitch]

1. Fans leaning toward the higher status, more highly hyped, more highly paid, more highly drafted players.

I don't know what's wrong with this frankly. I'm not disagreeing with you, because I think fans do expect more from these high picks. I just want to feel somewhat secure that our organization knows what it's doing drafting these high picks. In theory it should be easier to evaluate the positives of a high pick because they're so much better in the college game than their counterparts. If a team sucks enough to get a really high #1, you'd like to think the FO could reward the fans with a player who could make a difference. Getting lucky and finding a diamond in the ruff in the lower rounds isn't that impressive to me. There's a difference between developing talent and scouting it.

2. Fans jumping to conclusions about players in their first two or three years---essentially writing a player off.

I'm not sure most die-hard fans--those fans who really watch the game, the intricacies of football--do this. I'm talking about the guys watching the Oline while a play is happening, checking for breakdowns, stuff like that. I'm not sure that happens. I still believe most players at the skill positions start peaking around their 6th year and stay at a high level after that until age starts diminishing their game. That being said, even in their first few years a player should show improvement, even if it's only incremental improvement. Good or great players rarely regress, they're always improving even if it's in small chunks.

Sounds like you're talking about Skelton with this post, and I don't think most people have written him off. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they have. There's nothing wrong with pointing out a players faults, it doesn't mean that poster and fan have given up on the dude. There are some here who obviously think he'll never be a good QB and I agree with you that it's ignorant to really think that when the guy has improved every single year with us. In my opinion he's improved significantly from year to year. Accuracy is a huge problem though and very difficult to improve. You can fix the feet and hip rotation and windup and that will improve it, but overall if you're inaccurate it's hard to fix.

1. Who are the top 3 QBs in the NFL today?

Joe Flacco according to Joe Flacco. Seriously though: Probably Rodgers, Brady, Brees, and you can really put them in any order. I can't get over Brees 71% completion percentage last year though, I'll take that any day. Rodgers last year 68% (Kurt Warner #'s), Brady was 65% (that's the LOWEST completion % Brees has had in 10 years, except for his first year with the Chargers when he only played 1 game). That's also Brees' average over 10 years, 154 games. His average. In 2010 Brees completed 68%, in 2009 he was again at 70%, so it's no fluke. I'll take a dude with that completion %age any day, any day. And it's not like he's throwing to the same dudes Brady is with two spectacular TE's, he had Randy Moss, Wes Welker; I mean my God. And Rodgers has stellar receivers, real deep threats like Jennings, Driver, Jordy Nelson, Finley. Nobody even knew Brees receiving core until he started throwing to them.

2. Do you feel a sense of desperation for the team when one of the top draft picks or most highly paid free agents doesn't perform?

Absolutely. Although I wouldn't call it desperation. More like a complete "same-old-Cardinals" feeling. They get paid big bucks for evaluating these dudes. That's all they do, all day long, day after day, year after year. I expect results. You're going to miss on some dudes, everyone does, but I'd expect it to be above what we've done. We're getting better, but we're not where I'd like to be.

3. If you could re-claim three Cardinals who got away---who were either traded or left as free agents, who would they be?

Can I choose Don Coryell? I wouldn't pick who you'd think: I'd reclaim Garrison Hearst, comeback player of the year twice. Really hard to do even one time and be relevant. Aeneas Williams, just because I think he should have retired where he started. And Pat Tilman because, well just because.

Lastly---what's so funny to read these days on the board is NOT the usual excuses for highly hyped players not getting the job done (like---"he was from Philly and didn't understand the new offense")---but excuses for players who DO get the job done, as in "the defense carried him."

The defense did carry Skelton; so did special teams--special teams carried both QB's all year and has helped our team for several years. It's supported by actual #'s. That doesn't mean he's a bad QB, people use that FACT to sway dudes from getting too excited about his win-loss record, which is the only thing Skelton lovers can point to (and rightfully so). You certainly can't point to statistics with Skelton or QB rating or TD to INT ratio or any of the normal QB metrics to evaluate a QB. It's the same with Tebow--everything screams that he can't win games, statistically, but he does. Denver also had a good defense, which helped him. That doesn't make him a stellar QB. Doesn't make either of them bad either. But when evaluating a QB those metrics are there for a reason, because the best QB's do own those metrics, like completion %age, INT's, TD's, Yards, 3rd down conversions, and QB rating. I love Skelton and hope he develops into our QBOTF, but he isn't there, and his #'s really truly suck. There's nothing wrong with honestly evaluating his progress. And let's be honest, he's progressed phenomenally, in my opinion, every single year he's been here with little help (again in my opinion). If he were to ever get some quality starter-type mentoring I think he'd develop really quick. I can't remember who it was, but someone posted that Skelton was stupid, like some caveman or something LOL, and I have the opposite opinion entirely--I think without starter-reps, without a full offseason, and even prior to that, with little guidance, I'm totally impressed with his ability to improve. That's what you want. Bigtime. He's impressed me a heck of a lot, but I'm not afraid to be honest about his #'s and performance.

Apologies for the long post. LOL.

No apologies needed at all, Darkside---this was a great read. Thank you!

What I would ask is whether the team as a whole became a lot tougher when Skelton took over---I believe there is a correlation. It's not a fluke, because Skelton brings a toughness to the position that the other QBs in the last two years have not.

The other thing is---without question the defense played much better---but to say that the defense "carried" Skelton is a moot point, especially when one considers that 6 of Skelton's 8 wins were the result of marching the team down the field for the winning score when it mattered most.

One could argue, well the defense kept the games close enough for Skelton to have that chance---and that's true---but they also did for many of the early games the Cardinals lost under Kolb (WASH 22 ARZ 21; SEA 13 ARZ 10; NYG 31 ARZ 27; BAL 30 ARZ 27)---Skelton had to deliver when the team needed him the most, which more often than not, he has, and he deserves credit for his late game heroics, especially as a first and second year player.

 

[Mitch]

I remember something along those lines not too long ago actually. I'll try to find the thread that discussed it but it won't be easy. I could be wrong though.

Warner lamented the loss of Boldin and in doing so questioned the FO's decisions.

* Warner was not happy with the way the Cardinals handled his contract negotiations.

* If you recall, he even offered to give Boldin another $1M of his salary to keep him in Cardinal red.

* No question that Warner was growing very concerned about his long-term health.

* Warner said that he lost the fun of playing the game---and part of that was losing Todd Haley and Anquan Boldin, two key people on the organization that connected with Warner on a daily basis. And for a guy who really had to think about coming back after the Super Bowl, these losses, combined with the humiliation he felt about the contract negotiations, led to him staying for just one more year.

In my opinion, Warner still sounds a little sore about the organization. He will rave about Fitz and give support to Whisenhunt, but when talking about the team, Warner's tone is openly critical.

While Warner avowed on NFL Network, while hinting at an inside understanding of the situation, that Kevin Kolb will be the starter---I personally didn't believe that Warner had any inside knowledge. Instead, I thought that Warren Sapp's rebuttal was on the money (and more indicative of inside knowledge)---that Skelton had won over the locker room...and for good reasons.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Questions:

1. Who are the top 3 QBs in the NFL today?

1. Aaron Rogers
2. Eli Manning
3. Drew Brees


2. Do you feel a sense of desperation for the team when one of the top draft picks or most highly paid free agents doesn't perform?

No. I only feel desperation when the player does not perform, and the organization still puts that player on the field to save face. It is the NFL, big chances with big money. There are going to be hits and misses, but IMO, the misses only hurt when they are not dealt with in regards to production, but pay role.


3. If you could re-claim three Cardinals who got away---who were either traded or left as free agents, who would they be?
1. Anquan Boldin
2. Karlos Dansby
3. Jamir Miller

2. John Skelton applies to BOTH questions. When teams draft a QB in the 5th round these days, it's expected to be for the #3 QB spot, right? And---hey--despite going 8-4 as a rookie and sophomore having been given as little reps and preparation with the first team as possible, the fact that he was inconsistent means---the jury is in, right?---he will ALWAYS be inconsistent...forget about him...because there is no chance for improvement?

Lastly---what's so funny to read these days on the board is NOT the usual excuses for highly hyped players not getting the job done (like---"he was from Philly and didn't understand the new offense")---but excuses for players who DO get the job done, as in "the defense carried him."

If 8-4---when the rest of games were 5-15 isn't good enough for you and you want more glorified stats---that's a pattern of thinking that defies logic.

+1. But to go back to point/thought #2 if Kolb wins the competition in camp/offseason then he should start.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

1. Fans leaning toward the higher status, more highly hyped, more highly paid, more highly drafted players.

I don't know what's wrong with this frankly. I'm not disagreeing with you, because I think fans do expect more from these high picks. I just want to feel somewhat secure that our organization knows what it's doing drafting these high picks. In theory it should be easier to evaluate the positives of a high pick because they're so much better in the college game than their counterparts. If a team sucks enough to get a really high #1, you'd like to think the FO could reward the fans with a player who could make a difference. Getting lucky and finding a diamond in the ruff in the lower rounds isn't that impressive to me. There's a difference between developing talent and scouting it.

2. Fans jumping to conclusions about players in their first two or three years---essentially writing a player off.

I'm not sure most die-hard fans--those fans who really watch the game, the intricacies of football--do this. I'm talking about the guys watching the Oline while a play is happening, checking for breakdowns, stuff like that. I'm not sure that happens. I still believe most players at the skill positions start peaking around their 6th year and stay at a high level after that until age starts diminishing their game. That being said, even in their first few years a player should show improvement, even if it's only incremental improvement. Good or great players rarely regress, they're always improving even if it's in small chunks.

Sounds like you're talking about Skelton with this post, and I don't think most people have written him off. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they have. There's nothing wrong with pointing out a players faults, it doesn't mean that poster and fan have given up on the dude. There are some here who obviously think he'll never be a good QB and I agree with you that it's ignorant to really think that when the guy has improved every single year with us. In my opinion he's improved significantly from year to year. Accuracy is a huge problem though and very difficult to improve. You can fix the feet and hip rotation and windup and that will improve it, but overall if you're inaccurate it's hard to fix.

1. Who are the top 3 QBs in the NFL today?

Joe Flacco according to Joe Flacco. Seriously though: Probably Rodgers, Brady, Brees, and you can really put them in any order. I can't get over Brees 71% completion percentage last year though, I'll take that any day. Rodgers last year 68% (Kurt Warner #'s), Brady was 65% (that's the LOWEST completion % Brees has had in 10 years, except for his first year with the Chargers when he only played 1 game). That's also Brees' average over 10 years, 154 games. His average. In 2010 Brees completed 68%, in 2009 he was again at 70%, so it's no fluke. I'll take a dude with that completion %age any day, any day. And it's not like he's throwing to the same dudes Brady is with two spectacular TE's, he had Randy Moss, Wes Welker; I mean my God. And Rodgers has stellar receivers, real deep threats like Jennings, Driver, Jordy Nelson, Finley. Nobody even knew Brees receiving core until he started throwing to them.

2. Do you feel a sense of desperation for the team when one of the top draft picks or most highly paid free agents doesn't perform?

Absolutely. Although I wouldn't call it desperation. More like a complete "same-old-Cardinals" feeling. They get paid big bucks for evaluating these dudes. That's all they do, all day long, day after day, year after year. I expect results. You're going to miss on some dudes, everyone does, but I'd expect it to be above what we've done. We're getting better, but we're not where I'd like to be.

3. If you could re-claim three Cardinals who got away---who were either traded or left as free agents, who would they be?

Can I choose Don Coryell? I wouldn't pick who you'd think: I'd reclaim Garrison Hearst, comeback player of the year twice. Really hard to do even one time and be relevant. Aeneas Williams, just because I think he should have retired where he started. And Pat Tilman because, well just because.

Lastly---what's so funny to read these days on the board is NOT the usual excuses for highly hyped players not getting the job done (like---"he was from Philly and didn't understand the new offense")---but excuses for players who DO get the job done, as in "the defense carried him."

The defense did carry Skelton; so did special teams--special teams carried both QB's all year and has helped our team for several years. It's supported by actual #'s. That doesn't mean he's a bad QB, people use that FACT to sway dudes from getting too excited about his win-loss record, which is the only thing Skelton lovers can point to (and rightfully so). You certainly can't point to statistics with Skelton or QB rating or TD to INT ratio or any of the normal QB metrics to evaluate a QB. It's the same with Tebow--everything screams that he can't win games, statistically, but he does. Denver also had a good defense, which helped him. That doesn't make him a stellar QB. Doesn't make either of them bad either. But when evaluating a QB those metrics are there for a reason, because the best QB's do own those metrics, like completion %age, INT's, TD's, Yards, 3rd down conversions, and QB rating. I love Skelton and hope he develops into our QBOTF, but he isn't there, and his #'s really truly suck. There's nothing wrong with honestly evaluating his progress. And let's be honest, he's progressed phenomenally, in my opinion, every single year he's been here with little help (again in my opinion). If he were to ever get some quality starter-type mentoring I think he'd develop really quick. I can't remember who it was, but someone posted that Skelton was stupid, like some caveman or something LOL, and I have the opposite opinion entirely--I think without starter-reps, without a full offseason, and even prior to that, with little guidance, I'm totally impressed with his ability to improve. That's what you want. Bigtime. He's impressed me a heck of a lot, but I'm not afraid to be honest about his #'s and performance.

Apologies for the long post. LOL.

Good read, and great answers for players you would want back.

 

[cardncubfan]

Good read, and great answers for players you would want back.

I agree.

 

[Pariah]

3. If you could re-claim three Cardinals who got away---who were either traded or left as free agents, who would they be?
.... Pat Tilman because, well just because.

Amen.

 

[WildBB]

If 8-4---when the rest of games were 5-15 isn't good enough for you and you want more glorified stats---that's a pattern of thinking that defies logic.

Skelton will just need to keep delivering W's. That's the bottom line. If Kolb can't and Skelton can then he made their decision for them.

 

[Catfish]

Mitch-----my answers for who we should have retained are OL-KVD, and WR's Q, and Steve Breaston.

 

[Bodha]

Interesting read, But im not sure I understand the point your trying to make. It seems your saying that people should disregard hype, where guys were drafted, how quickly they expect to see results, etc. Which I agree. But identifying the top 3 QBs in the league (who are painfully obvious as Brady, Aaron and Brees) and their draft statuses, what are you trying to prove? For every Tom Brady, theres 20 1st round picks who did put up pro bowl performances, and HOF careers. Fans act the way they do because theyve become accustomed to seeing a higher percentage of lotto picks go on to have great careers vs. guys drafted in the 5th. The NFL has a pretty effective caste system as far as talent. Guys drafted top 10 are very probably much better than guys drafted later. Is this always true? No, but its true often enough to where Fans expect this. Look at Hockey and Basketball. Typically, Only the top 2-3 picks in those drafts are clearly superior to everyone else available. The entire rest of the draft is completely hit-or-miss, and mostly miss. This is another reason why the NBA draft pulls a fraction of the viewers the NFL draft does, because we as fans recognize the much higher value of 1st round draft picks in football. You can say fans are fickle, and they are, but look back through history and youll find that the vast majority of HOF'rs were early round, mostly 1st round, selections. Fans have become acclimatized to expecting greatness immediately. They shouldnt, we can all agree on that. But you have to recognize that the hyped, marquee free agents and top 10 draft picks have the responsibility of performing up to, or close enough, to the standards that are being placed upon them. Hype doesnt just come out of nowhere. Every Andrew Luck, RG3, PP, Fitz, Peyton Manning were as hyped as they were coming out of college, because they were completely dominating in college. They obviously have superior ability than everyone else on the field. Anyways Im rambling and have forgotten what I was talking about when I began this post. I think it was wether or not fans were allowed to have segways at Cards camp too.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's not that I prefer Kolb because he was a higher pick or we traded for him or he gets paid more, it's because I believe if both guys play well, he's the better player.

Sure Skelton is 8-4, how many QB's in the history of the game win 2/3 of their games while completing 55%? And I'm skipping his rookie year in that regard or it's 52.6%.

He's got to be more accurate and he's got to stop leading WR's into big hits. I can't recall a lot of guys in the NFL over the years who improve that much but then most NFL QB's didn't play at Fordham so who knows how much he'll improve.

Kolb has be much stronger in the pocket but frankly the big question I have on him is can he stay healthy. I asked it the other day if you're whiz at what point do you decide he's going to get hurt anyways so I might as well start Skelton so he gets more reps.

Perfect scenario both guys stay healthy whoever plays better wins the job and that's it.

Statistically Kolb is a better QB, even last year he had a higher %, lower INT % higher passer rating, higher YPA etc. Skelton is definitely more confident in the pocket, gets sacked less. It all comes down to do you believe the 8-4 is going to continue or do you think it's unlikely to?

Hopefully if Skelton is the Qb it's because he won the job not because Kolb got hurt again or won the job then played poorly.

 

[Duckjake]

how many QB's in the history of the game win 2/3 of their games while completing 55%?

How many QBs in the history of the game won 2/3rds of them? But I get what you are saying.

However there were a lot of successful QBs in that range. Most of them before the rule changes moved the game from running and D to passing and rushing the passer the last 15-20 years however.

Terry Bradshaw was 107-51 with a career completion % of 51.9. Bart Starr's was 57.4. Charley Johnson played 15 years in the NFL and Jim Hart 18 years with completion % of 51. CJ went 30-15 from '63 to '66 never getting over 54%. Jim Hart was 31-11 during the Cardiac Cards run with a high of 56.2%.

John Elway 56.9 career Fran Tarkenton 57. Roger Staubach 57.0 (85-29) Bob Griese 56.2 was 12-1 one season with a 53.0 percentage. Joe Theisman 56.7%. Jim Plunkett 52.5%. Six of the Eleven QBs with multiple SB wins are on that list. Daryle Lamonica's career % was 49.5 and he was 66-16 as a starter.

John Skelton (151/275) to raise his % last season above 60% would only had to have completed one more pass per game! (167/275) Two more passes per game and he goes over 65%. (183/275) I think Double Deuce could very well improve enough to complete one or two more passes per game.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I was sad to see Kyle vanden Bosch leave. I think he blew out his knees two seasons in a row and the Cards gave up on him.

 

[THESMEL]

These are the patterns that I would like to put in question:

1. Fans leaning toward the higher status, more highly hyped, more highly paid, more highly drafted players.

Are you talking about Fitz or PP? Ha Ha ! seriously Fitz held his value - Rolle , Dansby, AW, Antonio Smith, DD and CC and I'll throw in Pace and Breaston rose in value- many lost value

OK We didn't sign any drafted Cardinal under Ken Whisenhunt for 5 years!
(Denny signed DD and Hayes) We signed Kurt after a trip to SF and many ex steeler busts! Our first SB and another NFCW title before we signed DD, AW after low balling tenders to deuce and Lyle- I screamed for 2nd tier players to be signed

2. Fans jumping to conclusions about players in their first two or three years---essentially writing a player off.

Who has Whiz drafted , developed and increased their value on an NFL level?
Branch? Deuce? THT? DRC? I mean come on man! Levi and Beanie, Leinart and even hoffer Russ Grimm are "ruined" who can get national endorsments- Fitz and PP?


Questions:

1. Who are the top 3 QBs in the NFL today?

Rodgers-Brees-Eli - Brady hasn't won a SB since 2004-when he had Corey Dillon running the ball and a good defense. He is great but Eli has beaten him twice heads up as a team player and a field general! the 2nd won is not a fluke. Patriots are one dimensional

2. Do you feel a sense of desperation for the team when one of the top draft picks or most highly paid free agents doesn't perform?

When Beanie was healthy he was a back up averaging 7 carries a game- Levi pass protected more than any Tackle in the NFL over his first 5 years- DRC needed the Cardinal coached out of him! Dwill is What the hell factor and PP was a very high pick!

3. If you could re-claim three Cardinals who got away---who were either traded or left as free agents, who would they be?

Antonio Smith, Reggie Wells, Dansby

Likely Answers:

1. Rodgers, Brady and Brees. Fact: only one of them was a first rounder---and he plummeted in the first round---and did not start until his 4th year in the NFL.

all might fail in Whiz's system, Belicheck would have rings with the Cardinals talent since 2004

2. Perhaps this is why you wanted Leinart over Warner?

Warner earned it, but Warner needed play action game plan like Edge provided in the 08 playoffs and Beanie provided in the 09 playoff win to reach maximum potential- Leinart embraced a balanced gameplan - took his oline to Hawaii and was step childed just like Beanie and Edge!

3. Would it be Anquan Boldin, Karlos Dansby and Calvin Pace?

Q was offered top 5 WR money before Fitz was offered his 2nd contract - Cards might not have been able to sign Fitz if Q and drew accepted that contract? Fitz would have been franchised at best! So Q left to sign for less and that does not speak well of this staff after a SB visit! rolle, Dansby, left for record contracts but the Cards offered at least very close! Why did they want the hell out of Dodge!

Fact: Pace was the only 1st rounder---and he didn't develop until his 4th year (similar to Alan Branch---only much more noticeably).

Why did we not make offers to 2nd tier SBplayers? Both my 08 MVP's were old ( EDGE on offense) (Hayes on defense) but Mcfadden really? Faneca? Porter? get the hell out of here with that kool aid- it stinks!

My points:

1. Thank goodness we have a head coach who stresses competition, and is willing to start a rookie 5th rounder in front of a veteran like Edgerrin James, if the rookie is looking better in practice. Or is willing to start a washed up veteran (Warner) in front of a top ten draft pick.

THT never outrushed Edge or Beanie- in any way shape or form- Edge tried to show veteran leadership toward a balanced game and was whizzed on- THT was excellent as a goal line- 3rd down fresh leg role player - He averaged a lilmover 2 yards as a rusher - and never forced a defense to adjust to him- NEVER NOT ONCE!


2. John Skelton applies to BOTH questions. When teams draft a QB in the 5th round these days, it's expected to be for the #3 QB spot, right? And---hey--despite going 8-4 as a rookie and sophomore having been given as little reps and preparation with the first team as possible, the fact that he was inconsistent means---the jury is in, right?---he will ALWAYS be inconsistent...forget about him...because there is no chance for improvement?

Kurt was inconsistant 6 turnovers one game 6 td's another to a 9-7 record, His top performances were better than anyone in the history of the NFL, His bottom performances were worse than anybody since Terry Bradshaw!

Lastly---what's so funny to read these days on the board is NOT the usual excuses for highly hyped players not getting the job done (like---"he was from Philly and didn't understand the new offense")---but excuses for players who DO get the job done, as in "the defense carried him."

My argument hasn't changed since 2010 - when every player and every unit nose dives to the worse in the NFL It IS NOT the player or the units - IT IS THE HC AND HIS STAFF period. Now Horton helped us last year and he was helped by-being the 24th team in rush attempts- compared last in rush attempts and yardage the prior years- you can't do that to your defense every week years on end!

If 8-4---when the rest of games were 5-15 isn't good enough for you and you want more glorified stats---that's a pattern of thinking that defies logic.

again you can't have a quick strike agressive offense and a quick strike aggresive defense on the same team, you can not be 1 dimensional on offense and defense and be consistant. Watch Big Ben fight with Haley this year - Whatch Big Ben get clocked trying to play like Kurt Warner! Just like we watched Kurt get assaninated in the Saints game - after Beanie destroyed GB's # 1 rush defense the week before.