Pedro Martinez = most overrrated player ever

[Cheesebeef]

I have NEVER seen this guy pitch well in the biggest games. And whats' this crap about only being able to pitch 100 pitches - what kind of warrior is that? Classic example today - bases loaded - two outs - clinging to a one run lead - on pitch number 100 - he gives up a three run double by Jeter, once again sending the Sox home for the winter.

The more idsgustign thing is he's probably gonna get some kind of ridiculous contract when in reality when it comes time for the playoffs - he's a third starter and nothing more.

 

[BC867]

I have NEVER seen this guy pitch well in the biggest games.

'Guess that's why they got Curt. Too bad his ankle got in the way.

 

[Cardinal Bob]

I have NEVER seen this guy pitch well in the biggest games.

Then you must have been living under a rock from 1997-2000. Up until nagging shoulder injuries started to really limit him starting in 2000, the guy was the best pitcher in baseball. Perhaps you missed him coming out of the bullpen on 2 days rest in Game 5 of the Division Series in Cleveland in 1999 and pitching no-hit ball for 6 innings as the Sox completed a comback from 0-2 to take the series 3-2? Yeah, you're right...that wasn't a big game. Nor was it a big game on Sept. 17, 1999 when he pitched a two-hit shut-out, striking out 17 Yankees in Yankee Stadium. Nor was Game 5 of the LDS against Oakland last year a big game. Nor was taking a 5-2 lead into the 8th inning last year agaist the Yankees a big game. It's not Pedro's fault that Grady Little had a massive brain fart and wouldn't turn that lead over to, statistically, the best bullpen in baseball last year, that had been lights out in the playoffs all postseason to hold that lead.

And whats' this crap about only being able to pitch 100 pitches - what kind of warrior is that? Classic example today - bases loaded - two outs - clinging to a one run lead - on pitch number 100 - he gives up a three run double by Jeter, once again sending the Sox home for the winter.

The Sox are going home for the winter? Someone should have told them that before they showed up in NY tonight for Game 6.

One thing you may not know about Pedro...he's about 5'10" and weighs about 175 lbs. Kinda small for a power pitcher. Look at the size of guys liek Clemens, Schilling, R. Johnson. They're a lot bigger (even if Johnson's skinny, he's 6'10" for chrissakes!)and can get more power on their pitches from their leg drive. Martinez is a little guy so all his power came from his shoulder. He's now learing how to be a pitcher, a la Greg Maddux, rather than a guy who blows people away like Johnson, Clemens, and Schilling. He's 33, and has a history recently of shoulder problems. Statistics show that he loses effectiveness after 105 pitches (I don't have the exact numbers, but I've read them in the Boston papers ad nauseum), so why not limit him?

What the Yankees have learned over the years that other teams seem not to have learned, is to take a lot of pitches when facing him and run up his pitch count. They know he can't bring it at 97-98mph any more so he'll try and get them out with pitches that appear to be strikes, but in reality are just out of the zone. That's what good hitters do and the Yankees sure have some good hitters (as much as I hate them).

The more idsgustign thing is he's probably gonna get some kind of ridiculous contract when in reality when it comes time for the playoffs - he's a third starter and nothing more.

I'm sure the Angels will give him the $13-$14 million a year over the 4 years he's looking for...but with his recent health record, the Red Sox won't pay him that much, nor will they give him that many years. I think they'll go after a younger, lower cost guy like Pavano or Radke this winter. I don't think the Yankees will touch him because way too many guys on that team HATE him and wouldn't want him as a teammate under any circumstances. Steinbugger hates him too, but he'd be willing to put that aside to tweak the Red Sox's noses.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

Very nice job Cardinal Bob.

Exactly, You can't expect Pedro who's 5'10" 170 to be out there throwing 130 Pitches. It's not like many starters go out there and throw that many any way.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Then you must have been living under a rock from 1997-2000. Up until nagging shoulder injuries started to really limit him starting in 2000, the guy was the best pitcher in baseball. Perhaps you missed him coming out of the bullpen on 2 days rest in Game 5 of the Division Series in Cleveland in 1999 and pitching no-hit ball for 6 innings as the Sox completed a comback from 0-2 to take the series 3-2? Yeah, you're right...that wasn't a big game. Nor was it a big game on Sept. 17, 1999 when he pitched a two-hit shut-out, striking out 17 Yankees in Yankee Stadium. Nor was Game 5 of the LDS against Oakland last year a big game. Nor was taking a 5-2 lead into the 8th inning last year agaist the Yankees a big game. It's not Pedro's fault that Grady Little had a massive brain fart and wouldn't turn that lead over to, statistically, the best bullpen in baseball last year, that had been lights out in the playoffs all postseason to hold that lead.

I'll give you the Game 5 no hit performance against Cleveland - that was a truly awesome game - but then you give me a regular season game that he won - then a Game 5 that wasn't even the pitcher of record and then the biggest choke job of all last year against the Yanks? You know what - if you can't finish the game and you can't pitch more than 105 pitches - just how great are you? The ruly great ones get the job done - period and if they can't, then IMO - they shouldn't be mentioned as such and Pedro - clearly shouldn't be mentioned with Randy, Curt and The Rocket - all of which at least once in their careers - and more often than that absolutely dominated in the playoffs leading the World Series Championships and multiple NLCS/ALCS appearances.

And regardless - you show me 3 years where Pedro was dominating - great - I like to think guys who get his kind of praise DOMINATE for a decade or at least HALF THAT.

I take it your a Sox fan, huh? If Pedro ever showed against the Yanks in a big game and actually won - maybe the Sox wouldn't be as pathetic as they have been over the years.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

Well, I think for his unbelievable dominance through those first 105 makes up for his pathetic pitching performance after that point.

Also, when did we start judging how good pitchers were once they were past 105 pitches?

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Also, when did we start judging how good pitchers were once they were past 105 pitches?

Because sometimes that's exactly what it takes to WIN.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Because sometimes that's exactly what it takes to WIN.

Exactly - I'm not saying Pedro isn't a good pitcher. He clearly is - but to say he;s one of the best of all time IMO is a total joke. He had an awesome run for three years and has been good outside of that - yet never gotten his team over the threshold because he can't finish what he started - to me - that is why he is the most overrated player I can remember.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

Because sometimes that's exactly what it takes to WIN.

Oh, I see. I guess we should get rid of all starters who can't throw 105 pitches, because they can't win.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh, I see. I guess we should get rid of all starters who can't throw 105 pitches, because they can't win.

no - but those guys aren't and justifiably shouldn't be mentioned along with the greats of all time - just like Pedro.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

Exactly - I'm not saying Pedro isn't a good pitcher. He clearly is - but to say he;s one of the best of all time IMO is a total joke. He had an awesome run for three years and has been good outside of that - yet never gotten his team over the threshold because he can't finish what he started - to me - that is why he is the most overrated player I can remember.

2.71 Career ERA Allows a homer only every 13.72 Innings Career 1.02 WHIP 2.0 Walks Per 9 Innings 6.8 Hits Per 9 Innings 9.8 K's Per 9 Innings.
Also a 42 Career Stuff which is

A rough indicator of the pitcher's overall dominance, based on normalized strikeout rates, walk rates, home run rates, runs allowed, and innings per game. "10" is league average, while "0" is roughly replacement level. The formula is as follows: Stuff = EqK9 * 6 - 1.333 * (EqERA + PERA) - 3 * EqBB9 - 5 * EqHR9 -3 * MAX{6-IP/G),0}

In what way is this not dominate?

 

[Cheesebeef]

2.71 Career ERA Allows a homer only every 13.72 Innings Career 1.02 WHIP 2.0 Walks Per 9 Innings 6.8 Hits Per 9 Innings 9.8 K's Per 9 Innings.
Also a 42 Career Stuff which is


In what way is this not dominate?

you show me regular season stats - I point to playoff failure - just as I would to Ranndy if he hadn't done what he did in the 2001 playoffs. At some point to be considered dominant - you got to do it in the post season to be mentioned along side the greats.

 

[Djaughe]

Pedro is an awesome pitcher. Been kinda fragile for some time - but he belongs in the HOF.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

you show me regular season stats - I point to playoff failure - just as I would to Ranndy if he hadn't done what he did in the 2001 playoffs. At some point to be considered dominant - you got to do it in the post season to be mentioned along side the greats.

Oh, OK gotcha. So now Regular Seasons stats are worthless, along with pitchers that can't throw 105 pitches.

Alright.

Also Pedro's Career Opponents Batting Average
.209
Opponents OBP
.271

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

Oh, I see. I guess we should get rid of all starters who can't throw 105 pitches, because they can't win.

Yeah, but Pedro isnt supposed to be just any starter.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Pedro WAS an awesome pitcher - anyone look at his second half of the season when he went 0-5 to end the year with an ERA above 5.

Is he a HOFer - sure - but he not even clsoe to be one of the best pitchers of all time and he's not even clsoe to being the pitcher of this Era - that's all I'm saying and to put him in that class is ridiculous to me.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

Yeah, but Pedro isnt supposed to be just any starter.

Obviously he isn't. If you look at the stats posted above, he is far superior. He gives the best 105 pitches out there.

 

[coyoteshockeyfan]

you show me regular season stats - I point to playoff failure - just as I would to Ranndy if he hadn't done what he did in the 2001 playoffs. At some point to be considered dominant - you got to do it in the post season to be mentioned along side the greats.

Bolded because it is true. Pedro is definately a solid pitcher that Id love to have, but still overrated because of this, among other things.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

Pedro WAS an awesome pitcher - anyone look at his second half of the season when he went 0-5 to end the year with an ERA above 5.

Is he a HOFer - sure - but he not even clsoe to be one of the best pitchers of all time and he's not even clsoe to being the pitcher of this Era - that's all I'm saying and to put him in that class is ridiculous to me.

He's not even close to the best pitcher of all time, But of this era (1980+) I'd say top 3-4 (Without looking at stats I'd say rough prediction Maddux Clemens and Johnson)

I've never siad he was the best pitcher ever. But your not giving him his due.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh, OK gotcha. So now Regular Seasons stats are worthless, along with pitchers that can't throw 105 pitches.

Alright.

Also Pedro's Career Opponents Batting Average
.209
Opponents OBP
.271

I think what differentiates the very good - to GREAT is what they do when the true pressur eis on - can they elevate their games come playoff time? If not - what use are they in the grand scheme of things. You pitch during the regular season in order to have a chance to get into the post season and win Titles - if you consistently fail at that point - just how special are you?

Are you really gonna tell me that Pedro is a big game playoff pitcher? You seem to be throwing around a lot of stats, but ignoring that basic question.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's not even close to the best pitcher of all time, But of this era (1980+) I'd say top 3-4 (Without looking at stats I'd say rough prediction Maddux Clemens and Johnson)

I've never siad he was the best pitcher ever. But your not giving him his due.

I am giving Pedro his due - I think he is a very good pitcher and second tier as far as starters go in this era - but I think too many people put him in the truly Elite category of Clemens, Schilling and Johnson (and you added Maddux) and I don't think he's in their league when it comes down to the most important moments. Maybe Maddux - he never gave me that lock down feeling on the Braves.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

Are you really gonna tell me that Pedro is a big game playoff pitcher? You seem to be throwing around a lot of stats, but ignoring that basic question.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I have never ever ever said he was a big game pitcher. Nor have we even debated that. Your views are moronic, you treat stats as worthless, when really there the only way to tell how dominant and valuable a player is.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Stop putting words in my mouth. I have never ever ever said he was a big game pitcher. Nor have we even debated that. Your views are moronic, you treat stats as worthless, when really there the only way to tell how dominant and valuable a player is.

I was asking you a QUESTION - Do you think Pedro is a big game pitcher? That's not puytting words into your mouth - it's asking you a question - which you refused to answer.

Being a big game pitcher is part of a pitcher overall's dominance wouldn't you say? You point to stats - but they don't make up the whole pitcure - there are toher things to take into account and personally - winning big games I would think would be one of those major barometers of greatness.

So you say stats are the only way to show dominance and valuability right - what is Pedro's overall record in post-season play? The last two years - 2-2 with a 4.74 ERA - that looks more like mediocre stats to me than dominating. I 'm sure his stats from previous years were better but I'm still trying to find a site that goes back more than two years.

Stats tell the whole story - that's spoken like a true baseball nerd.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

I was asking you a QUESTION - Do you think Pedro is a big game pitcher? That's not puytting words into your mouth - it's asking you a question - which you refused to answer.

Being a big game pitcher is part of a pitcher overall's dominance wouldn't you say? You point to stats - but they don't make up the whole pitcure - there are toher things to take into account and personally - winning big games I would think would be one of those major barometers of greatness.

So you say stats are the only way to show dominance and valuability right - what is Pedro's overall record in post-season play? The last two years - 2-2 with a 4.74 ERA - that looks more like mediocre stats to me than dominating. I 'm sure his stats from previous years were better but I'm still trying to find a site that goes back more than two years.

Stats tell the whole story - that's spoken like a true baseball nerd.

At least I'm not an ignorant old timer, who refuses to change no matter how much the evidence proves. Didn't a person just list of a paragraph of Pedro's great games in the playoffs? I believe he did. And to take record into account is absurd. 2-2? That means nothing, it tells me nothing, You have no idea how those two games were won. Did he pitch well? Did he defense save him? Did his offense score a ton of runs even though he gave up a ton of runs?

Also talking about it, 4 post season games show almost nothing, 4 games is a very very very small sample size and isn't reliable. If you see Karim Garcia's stats in a 4 game series. He has a .750 OBP and 5 Homers in the series would you believe he is the best player of all time because of that? Of course not, so it's foolish to think that Pedro isn't a great pitcher based on 4 games of his career.

 

[Cheesebeef]

At least I'm not an ignorant old timer, who refuses to change no matter how much the evidence proves. Didn't a person just list of a paragraph of Pedro's great games in the playoffs? I believe he did. And to take record into account is absurd. 2-2? That means nothing, it tells me nothing, You have no idea how those two games were won. Did he pitch well? Did he defense save him? Did his offense score a ton of runs even though he gave up a ton of runs?

Also talking about it, 4 post season games show almost nothing, 4 games is a very very very small sample size and isn't reliable. If you see Karim Garcia's stats in a 4 game series. He has a .750 OBP and 5 Homers in the series would you believe he is the best player of all time because of that? Of course not, so it's foolish to think that Pedro isn't a great pitcher based on 4 games of his career.

I'm not saying that - I actuially specifically said I couldn't find more STATS to suit you but I was looking.

My opinion of Pedro is based on what I perceive to be a lack of big game credentials throughout his career - but especially against the Yanks. I brought up those stats because they were the first ones I could find.

But again - I am asking YOU the question - do you consider Pedro a Big Game pitcher? Why won't you answer the question?

Hell -I'll go as far as saying that Pedro has been a dominating regular season pitcher - but for me - my definition of dominance takes into consideration both regular and post-season performance.

So again - do you think that Pedro is a big game pitcher?

Also - kind hard to be an old timer at age 28 stat guy.