Pedro's career > Schilling's career

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Pedro accomplishments:

3 Cy Young Awards
1 Pitching Triple Crown
2.71 lifetime ERA
6 All Star games
2 Top 5 MVP
5 ERA titles
3 strikeout titles
182 wins

Schilling accomplishments:
0 Cy Young Awards
3.32 lifetime ERA
6 AS games
0 Top 5 MVP
0 ERA titles
2 Strikeout titles
184 wins

I'll preface this by saying that Schilling will one day be in the Hall of Fame, especially if he pitches the Sox to the crown, and if he continues he'll end up over 3000 Ks which is basically a guarantee if he keeps playing after this season. Keep in mind Pedro has accomplished this in six less years. Schilling's career numbers are similar to those of David Cone, Mike Mussina, and Kevin Brown. In my mind, Schilling's postseason dominance seperates him from them, but you have to remember postseason is only one part of the game, otherwise Fernando Valenzuela or Dave Stewart would be in Cooperstown for their memorable postseason performances and solid careers.

 

[Cheesebeef]

best postseason pitcher of his era to go along with very good 3.32 ERA - World Series MVP versus Pedro's gaudy regular season numbers and very little to show for in the playoffs.

There is simply no comparison - ask any Red Sox fan today who they would rather have pitch a big game - at any point in their careers - what do you think they would say?

Mao - you can throw up all the stats you want - and Pedro has been dominating in the regular season when there is virtually no pressure - but Schilling has shown the ability to not only be very good during the regular season but DOMINANT in the post-season. The fact that Pedro can 't elevate his game is what leaves him miles behind Curt - IMO.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Who you'd rather have pitch a big game is not the determining factor in evaluating a player. If that was the case, MLB GMs would take El Duque's career over over Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, and Roger Clemens' respective Hall of Fame pursuits.

 

[Cheesebeef]

oh - and the whole six more years argument is pretty weak also. In Curt's first two "years" he appeared in 4 and 5 games respectively. Curt wasn't really even out of the bullpen until 1992 - having only started only 4 games and 1 game in his first two seasons (9 total appearances). Not really even sure where you got six more years out of this? Curt's first appearance was in 1988 - Pedro's first was 1992.

You also neglect to mention that Schilling has more 20 wins seasons, and that he has dealt with injuries for a good part of his career - thus ignoring that even though Curt has been in the league for 4 more years than Pedro - he's actually only started 50 more games than - about 1.6 seasons more. But leaving out those facts kinda muddies the waters now doesn't it.

So - comparable careers - Pedro's got more wins, a better regular season ERA and was unbelievable for six or so years but could never elevated his game once it came time for the playoffs versus Curt - who continues to be great in both the regular season and the postseason. Curt wins.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

What I meant was that they were six years apart in age, which I will now knock down to five years. Apologies, I was misinformed or heard wrong. Pedro also began his career in the bullpen too in case you were wondering. And your dependence on postseason stats as the determining the greatness of a player is simply flat out wrong and unfair. About as unfair as Pedro's career having an asterik next to it because of one fateful inning last year.

According to your argument, you'd rather take Derek Jeter's career over Bonds. Granted Jeter is a great player, but is nowhere comparable to Bonds. Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter of his generation and he chokes under pressure whether it be at the plate or in the field. Jeter seems to be the opposite but after all is said and done, we'll remember Bonds as the better player and Jeter as the most clutch player. Just as we'll remember Pedro as the better pitcher and Schilling as the more clutch pitcher.

* I'm saying without taking into consideration the steroid issue surrounding Bonds.

 

[devilalum]

Pedro accomplishments:

3 Cy Young Awards
1 Pitching Triple Crown
2.71 lifetime ERA
6 All Star games
2 Top 5 MVP
5 ERA titles
3 strikeout titles
182 wins

Schilling accomplishments:
0 Cy Young Awards
3.32 lifetime ERA
6 AS games
0 Top 5 MVP
0 ERA titles
2 Strikeout titles
184 wins

I'll preface this by saying that Schilling will one day be in the Hall of Fame, especially if he pitches the Sox to the crown, and if he continues he'll end up over 3000 Ks which is basically a guarantee if he keeps playing after this season. Keep in mind Pedro has accomplished this in six less years. Schilling's career numbers are similar to those of David Cone, Mike Mussina, and Kevin Brown. In my mind, Schilling's postseason dominance seperates him from them, but you have to remember postseason is only one part of the game, otherwise Fernando Valenzuela or Dave Stewart would be in Cooperstown for their memorable postseason performances and solid careers.

Want to do this same type of comparison between Pedro and Randy?

 

[Gee!]

Who you'd rather have pitch a big game is not the determining factor in evaluating a player. If that was the case, MLB GMs would take El Duque's career over over Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, and Roger Clemens' respective Hall of Fame pursuits.

Oh, I think it IS a determining factor. 2 of 3 the top pitchers you stated have been in the NL, where Schilling has been for the majority of his peak years. So with that in mind, how do you expect him get a CY? Now heres why I take Schilling. Schilling can get you to the big game, and win it. Can Pedro? Even in his prime years?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Oh, I think it IS a determining factor. 2 of 3 the top pitchers you stated have been in the NL, where Schilling has been for the majority of his peak years. So with that in mind, how do you expect him get a CY? Now heres why I take Schilling. Schilling can get you to the big game, and win it. Can Pedro? Even in his prime years?

I never said I wouldn't take Schilling if there was a Game 7. I'd take Schilling over any pitcher in history for a Game 7 not named Bob Gibson or Sandy Koufax. But that doesn't mean he's been the better pitcher over his career than Pedro. Pedro's numbers and accomplishments speak for themselves and Schilling's lack of them compared to Pedro speak just as greatly. I said it earlier, it's like comparing Jeter vs. Bonds. While they're both great, just as Schilling and Martinez are, one of them is known for his dominance in the postseason while the other is known for his dominance over the game.

And to answer your question about whether Pedro can get you to the big game and win it in his prime, look no further than 1999 when he finished second in MVP voting, and allowed 0 earned runs in 17 postseason innings including a hitless six inning relief appearance in the deciding Game 5 against the Indians when he came back on short rest with a severely strained back to win the game.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

I love how cheesebeef states that stats don't matter, yet uses 20 win seasons to back his case up.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I love how cheesebeef states that stats don't matter, yet uses 20 win seasons to back his case up.

hey - he brought the stat argument up - I just merely pointed out that he left one out that would weaken his argument. Personally - I know this is soemthing you don't do because, well, it weakens your argument, but there are two different seasons in baseball - you choose to solely look at the Regular season - and that's fine -I've said that Pedro has been a damn good regualr season pitcher and even dynamite for a five-six year run - but the fact that he HAS NEVER (save one game) risen or even maintained that level of dominance int he post-season, when everything's on the line tarnishes his otherwise great career.

Say what you will - I still think Pedro's the most over-rated pitcher in baseball and will prove it once again tonight.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And to answer your question about whether Pedro can get you to the big game and win it in his prime, look no further than 1999 when he finished second in MVP voting, and allowed 0 earned runs in 17 postseason innings including a hitless six inning relief appearance in the deciding Game 5 against the Indians when he came back on short rest with a severely strained back to win the game.

you give me one game - in the abolsute PRIME of his career - as oppsoed to Schilling's dominant performances throughout his entire career: at the beginning of his career in the playoffs and WORLD SERIES, his dominant performance 4 years ago and now his dominant performance this post-season.

That Pedro perfromance against the Indians was soemthing and I was amazed by it at the time - but to me - as far as post-season goes, it's the exception to the rule.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Cheese, answer me a question. What are your feelings about the greatness of Ted Williams and Barry Bonds? Because according to your standards that judge someone's greatness solely on postseason performances, these guys belong a notch below great postseason players such as Will Clark and Kirby Puckett.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese, answer me a question. What are your feelings about the greatness of Ted Williams and Barry Bonds? Because according to your standards that judge someone's greatness solely on postseason performances, these guys belong a notch below great postseason players such as Will Clark and Kirby Puckett.

MAO - TRY AND UNDERSTAND THIS - I TAKE BOTH REGULAR AND POSTSEASON PLAY INTO ACCOUNT - I have said numerous times that Pedro - for five or six years was a dynamite regular season pitcher who hasn't been able to keep his game at the same level in the playoffs versus Curt - who has been a very good regualr season pitcher and probably the most dominant Post-season pitcher in this era - it is you who is limiting my argument - not me.

And personally - until Barry went absolutely nutso over the last four years - I thought he was overrated as well - but now he is without a doubt unbelievable because a) He plays everyday and he effects the outcome OF EVERY GAME and b) The postseason perfromance he put when they went ot the World Series was unbelievable - although as a caveat, I do think that it's a little strange that Barry has become the uber Barry with all the winds swirling around HIS trainer and the steriod accusations. However, before Barry became the uber-Barry and before he actually produced int he playoffs, no one was talking about him as possibly the greatest player of all time and those post-season flubs were a reason why and you know it.

As far as Ted Williams - I don't know - I don't comment on players and eras that I didn't get to watch first hand.

Again - you are the one limiting my criteria here.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Oh, I take postseason play into account as well. Pedro's postseason record prior to this season was 4-1 with a 3.10 ERA. Better than Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Tom Glavine, and Greg Maddux. If he was lights out in the regular season but put up a 2-6 5.50 ERA career postseason numbers, then I'd see your point. And as far as big games goes, Pedro won Game 5 of the 1999 ALDS, Game 5 of the 2003 ALDS, and was in line to win Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS until Grady Little had the brain fart of all brain farts.

I just find it to be incredibly unfair to discredit a guy because he was merely good in the postseason when he was dominant in the regular season. If someone hit .370 every regular season but only hit .290 in the postseason would you call him an ovverrated player? My point with Bonds is you could discredit him the same way over his career. On a side note with Bonds, I thought his incredible performance in the 2002 World Series was marred by his error on a Garret Anderson bloop single that allowed the game and series winning run to get into scoring position. But I still think Barry's the greatest hitter I'll ever see regardless of how he performed in the postseason.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh, I take postseason play into account as well. Pedro's postseason record prior to this season was 4-1 with a 3.10 ERA. Better than Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Tom Glavine, and Greg Maddux. If he was lights out in the regular season but put up a 2-6 5.50 ERA career postseason numbers, then I'd see your point. And as far as big games goes, Pedro won Game 5 of the 1999 ALDS, Game 5 of the 2003 ALDS, and was in line to win Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS until Grady Little had the brain fart of all brain farts.

In line to win until Grady Little had a brain fart? He's your ace - he's supposed to be the guy you nail a game shut with - he's supposed to be one of the greatest pitchers of all time and he BLEW A 5 RUN LEAD. And you can't just take out an enitre post-season's performance to make your point - come on now.

To be honest - this one game will go along way towards validating or making me reevaluate my opinion of Pedro.

And I kinda agree with you about Bonds' error - that to go along with allowing Sid freaking Bream to score from second on a grounder threw the hole was pathetic.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Pete's only throwing mid 80s fastballs in the first. It could be a long night for him.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

Do you expect your pitchers do go out there and throw complete games every time? If so your completely misguided.

Also, for that nonsense he doesn't affect every game bull. He Does twice as much in his 1 game every 5 days then a batter does in 5 games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Do you expect your pitchers do go out there and throw complete games every time? If so your completely misguided.

Also, for that nonsense he doesn't affect every game bull. He Does twice as much in his 1 game every 5 days then a batter does in 5 games.

We were talking about Barry Bonds and Barry Bonds only.

You are wrong - just admit it already.

You know you just heaved a deep sigh of relief as Pedro got out of that jam in the first. He's still gonna get shelled tonight.

 

[Brandon_Webb]

You are wrong - just admit it already.

I was about to say the same to you.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was about to say the same to you.

I guess I win then!

Besides - tell me where I'm wrong - Pedro has been a great regular season pitcher and a dissappointment in the post-season over the course of his career because he doesn't match the excellence he brings in the less pressure filled regular season. Is that wrong?

 

[Ryanwb]

You know you just heaved a deep sigh of relief as Pedro got out of that jam in the first. He's still gonna get shelled tonight.

You know that scene in Airplane where the lady freaks out her husband has to slap her, then the stewardess, then the nun, then the camera pans to the left and you see the line of people waiting to slap her.\?

Pretty much this is gonna be you if Pedro keeps up his dominance. 5 innings, 3 hits and has shut out the best National League offensive team AT HOME

 

[Cheesebeef]

You know that scene in Airplane where the lady freaks out her husband has to slap her, then the stewardess, then the nun, then the camera pans to the left and you see the line of people waiting to slap her.\?

Pretty much this is gonna be you if Pedro keeps up his dominance. 5 innings, 3 hits and has shut out the best National League offensive team AT HOME

Yup. He's been extremely impressive tonight.

 

[arthurracoon]

Make that 6 innings and 3 hits and 0 runs.

wow.

 

[Gee!]

I think its funny. If the BoSox finally win a WS. Pedro will be immortalized forever with the worst hair cut he's ever had.

 

[arthurracoon]

7 innings
3 hits
0 runs
100 pitches

wow

Domination, brought to you by Pedro Martinez.