Pelicans @ Suns 3-1-19

[AzStevenCal]

Your right Steve it’s youth. Been youth for the last decade.

That's annoying and it stifles communication. It's not a sandbox I care to play in so I'll just leave you be.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm wanting the Suns to play better on a regular basis and show some progress.

This season, I'm just not seeing it.

At this point I'm not looking at wins and losses.

Agreed, 100%. I'm not seeing the progress I'd hoped for (and expected).

 

[Hoop Head]

The Suns are a young team but I'm not going to dig into the bag of excuses most every game. They should be winning more games than last season. Everything cannot be blamed on youth. I think it's doing the team a disservice to continually excuse it away.

I don't think it needs to be viewed as an excuse so much as a reason.

No one is making excuses, this team sucks. When we're constantly being beat for the same reasons each game though it's not someone making excuses for the losses so much as pointing out the obvious. If you believe they should be winning more then I can see why you view it as an excuse but I don't think that's why it's being said.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't think it needs to be viewed as an excuse so much as a reason.

No one is making excuses, this team sucks. When we're constantly being beat for the same reasons each game though it's not someone making excuses for the losses so much as pointing out the obvious. If you believe they should be winning more then I can see why you view it as an excuse but I don't think that's why it's being said.

Actually the players are the ones coming up with a lot of the excuses.

I do think the Suns should have won more games though.

 

[Hoop Head]

Alex Len and Tyson Chandler pilled dowb 10rpg for us? That’s new.

You e completely missed the point. Your last sentence proves it.

It’s like you think that a given game should have around 30 rebounds for the taking for us, and since Ayton is the only rebounder we have, he should be able to get all 30, right? That is an exaggeration but you get the idea.

In Tyson Chandler's 3 full seasons as a Sun he averaged 9.6 rebounds a game. So that's a hair below 10 a game but do you really find that hard to believe? He averaged 8.7 the first year, 11.5 the second, and 9.1 the third. As a starter Alex Len averaged 8 rebounds a game and that number went up in each year he was here, with it peaking at 8.8 as a starter last year. It was not unusual to see them post double doubles like Ayton does. That was my main point in mentioning them because like Ayton, Len was really young but Chandler was well beyond his prime. No one would claim either of them were special while in Phoenix. Somehow Ayton gets lauded for averaging 1 more rebound a game than AARP member Tyson Chandler though? Excuse me if I don't think a 20 year old prospect like Ayton should be doing more than what Chandler did in 25.6 minutes a night. Ayton is averaging 30.9 minutes and is taking a lot more shots so I expect him to post more double doubles than Chandler.

Here's an exercise for you, match the player to their Per 36 average. 13.1, 13.4, and 12.2. One of those is Ayton, another is Tyson, and the other is Len. Len and Tyson's numbers are from last season. Give up? Chandler averaged 13.1, Len with 13.4, and Ayton with 12.2. So both Len and Chandler were better rebounders per minute than Ayton. What do you find so hard to believe about that? I would say both of them had better rebounders on the floor with them also but they still managed to grab more boards than Ayton per minute.

So say that I'm lost or confused, that's fine. The numbers tell a different story though. Ayton is young, oh yeah. That excuses it all. He was the #1 overall pick! I'm sorry that I expect him to rebound better than the 2 duds that we had playing Center for the last 3 years, 1 who was a bust and the other who was well beyond his prime and on the verge of retiring.

Edit - All stats were pulled from Basketball Reference. I didn't include screenshots because that's just too many to be included and show everything. However here are links to all stats, which I meant to post originally.

Here are links to Ayton's stats, Chandler's stats, and Len's stats. On the first page you can see Per 36 minutes stats as well as all season averages. To view Len's stats as a starter you need to look at his Splits, which are HERE for last year and HERE for his Career. Neither Chandler or Ayton need splits since both are full time starters. Tyson started in 152 of 159 games in 3 seasons, I didn't use this year's stats since he came off the bench in 7 games for 12 minutes an outing. Ayton has started in 56 of 57 before tonight and played in 27 minutes the 1 game off the bench so I did include that in his stats.

 

[Mainstreet]

Agreed, 100%. I'm not seeing the progress I'd hoped for (and expected).

What it comes down too. Without a point guard the Suns are like a football team without a quarterback.

It simply doesn't work.

 

[Hoop Head]

What it comes down too. Without a point guard the Suns are like a football team without a quarterback.

It simply doesn't work.

You seemed to jump off the Tyler Johnson bandwagon already, is he playing bad tonight? I haven't turned on the Laker game yet and was avoiding that thread until I do.

 

[Mainstreet]

You seemed to jump off the Tyler Johnson bandwagon already, is he playing bad tonight? I haven't turned on the Laker game yet and was avoiding that thread until I do.

It's like Tyler is non-existent. The Suns would be better off having someone like Bridges or Daniels playing next to Booker.

He had two good games and has disappeared again.

 

[BC867]

Actually the players are the ones coming up with a lot of the excuses.

I've heard and read, game after game, all season long, from the Coach and now the players have picked up on, "We need to ..."

No sh**, Sherlocks! That is not a plan. It is not even an excuse.

Does anyone in Suns management know the meaning of taking responsibility?

You don't excuse success. Only failure! "We need to ..." at this stage is a waste of words.

And an ongoing admission of failure.

And that comes down to three people. The Managing Partner. The General Manager (if we had a real one). And the Head Coach.

I wish I could gather all the players and urge them to say to reporters, "Don't ask me. Ask management." Then say, "Thank you." and walk away.

 

[Mainstreet]

I've heard and read, game after game, all season long, from the Coach and now the players have picked up on, "We need to ..."

No sh**, Sherlocks! That is not a plan. It is not even an excuse.

Does anyone in Suns management know the meaning of taking responsibility?

You don't excuse success. Only failure! "We need to ..." at this stage is a waste of words.

And an ongoing admission of failure.

And that comes down to three people. The Managing Partner. The General Manager (if we had a real one). And the Head Coach.

I wish I could gather all the players and urge them to say to reporters, "Don't ask me. Ask management." Then say, "Thank you." and walk away.

Let's enjoy the win over the Lakers tonight BC. They don't come around very often.

 

[BC867]

Let's enjoy the win over the Lakers tonight BC. They don't come around very often.

I enjoy! I enjoy!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

In Tyson Chandler's 3 full seasons as a Sun he averaged 9.6 rebounds a game. So that's a hair below 10 a game but do you really find that hard to believe? He averaged 8.7 the first year, 11.5 the second, and 9.1 the third. As a starter Alex Len averaged 8 rebounds a game and that number went up in each year he was here, with it peaking at 8.8 as a starter last year. It was not unusual to see them post double doubles like Ayton does. That was my main point in mentioning them because like Ayton, Len was really young but Chandler was well beyond his prime. No one would claim either of them were special while in Phoenix. Somehow Ayton gets lauded for averaging 1 more rebound a game than AARP member Tyson Chandler though? Excuse me if I don't think a 20 year old prospect like Ayton should be doing more than what Chandler did in 25.6 minutes a night. Ayton is averaging 30.9 minutes and is taking a lot more shots so I expect him to post more double doubles than Chandler.

Here's an exercise for you, match the player to their Per 36 average. 13.1, 13.4, and 12.2. One of those is Ayton, another is Tyson, and the other is Len. Len and Tyson's numbers are from last season. Give up? Chandler averaged 13.1, Len with 13.4, and Ayton with 12.2. So both Len and Chandler were better rebounders per minute than Ayton. What do you find so hard to believe about that? I would say both of them had better rebounders on the floor with them also but they still managed to grab more boards than Ayton per minute.

So say that I'm lost or confused, that's fine. The numbers tell a different story though. Ayton is young, oh yeah. That excuses it all. He was the #1 overall pick! I'm sorry that I expect him to rebound better than the 2 duds that we had playing Center for the last 3 years, 1 who was a bust and the other who was well beyond his prime and on the verge of retiring.

If accurate that’s good research and certainly cast doubt as to Ayton being a good rebounder.

 

[SirStefan32]

The only thing I'd add to this conversation is that Ayton is a young kid in his first season. Would I prefer he was averaging 14 rebounds per game? Sure, but he is still doing pretty damn well.

 

[Hoop Head]

If accurate that’s good research and certainly cast doubt as to Ayton being a good rebounder.

Thanks for commenting on that because I originally meant to include links to their stats but forgot to do so. I went back and added them in. I didn't want to just add them at the bottom originally because the post was long enough and I didn't want screenshots or huge URL's to take up even more space so I was going to make the text hyper links but I forgot to go back and do that. I did add them now though. I'll add them in this post below also, just because I already have them copied.

Anyone who doesn't want to scroll up can view the stats at these links, Ayton's stats, Chandler's stats, and Len's stats. First page lists see Per 36 averages, it's the third category down after per game stats, and totals. Below Per 36 Minute stats are Per 100 possession stats, which I didn't mention but actually make the discrepancy between Ayton and Len & Chandler larger. To view Len's stats as a starter you need to look at his Splits, which are HERE for last year and HERE for his Career. Neither Chandler or Ayton needed splits since they're both full time starters. I also left Tyson's stats from this year out since he was all but done as a Sun, playing in 7 games off the bench and 12 minutes a game on average.

 

[Chaplin]

Thanks for commenting on that because I originally meant to include links to their stats but forgot to do so. I went back and added them in. I didn't want to just add them at the bottom originally because the post was long enough and I didn't want screenshots or huge URL's to take up even more space so I was going to make the text hyper links but I forgot to go back and do that. I did add them now though. I'll add them in this post below also, just because I already have them copied.

Anyone who doesn't want to scroll up can view the stats at these links, Ayton's stats, Chandler's stats, and Len's stats. First page lists see Per 36 averages, it's the third category down after per game stats, and totals. Below Per 36 Minute stats are Per 100 possession stats, which I didn't mention but actually make the discrepancy between Ayton and Len & Chandler larger. To view Len's stats as a starter you need to look at his Splits, which are HERE for last year and HERE for his Career. Neither Chandler or Ayton needed splits since they're both full time starters. I also left Tyson's stats from this year out since he was all but done as a Sun, playing in 7 games off the bench and 12 minutes a game on average.

Per 36 stats are useless. That is based on a player being 100% consistent for all 36 minutes -- with no consideration for fatigue and affect his teammates have on the game. If you want to say that Ayton is simply as bad as Chandler and Len, then just stop beating around the bush and say it.

 

[Hoop Head]

Per 36 stats are useless. That is based on a player being 100% consistent for all 36 minutes -- with no consideration for fatigue and affect his teammates have on the game. If you want to say that Ayton is simply as bad as Chandler and Len, then just stop beating around the bush and say it.

I'm not saying he's as bad as Chandler or Len but I am saying he's not a better rebounder than they were. That's what this is about and that's what I said before. Ayton is not a great rebounder, there I said it again. If you want to say he is then why don't you consider Chandler and Len great rebounders as well? That's why I brought them up.

No one called either of them great rebounders during their time here and it's fresh enough in everyone's mind that it shouldn't be hard to recall how people felt about them.

Len is also considered a bust but he was taken 4 picks later than Ayton as well and since he was so young during his time here I thought comparing him to Ayton might be a better comparison for those who always talk about "young bigs".

 

[Phrazbit]

IMO, per 36 stats are wildly overrated. It's like trying to compare the top speed of a sprinter vs a distance runner.

Comparing two veteran players rebounding rates, who's best attributes are rebounding, and showing them as being comparable to a rookie (who is playing far more minutes)... if anything it makes Ayton's numbers more impressive IMO.

Really, the only stat Len and Chandler didn't absolutely suck out loud at was rebounding. If Ayton can put up a similar rebounding rate, in more minutes and as the only guy on the freaking team the opposition has to worry about boxing out... then... I am not sweating Ayton's chops on the glass.

After a quick count Deandre Ayton has more double doubles in 58 games than Alex Len did in just about his first 200, Alex Len is, as mentioned, terrible at everything except rebounding.

It took Tyson Chandler SEVEN YEARS to average a double double, and rebounds are, again, one of his specialties.

So... when comparing Ayton to Chandler and Len he makes them both look like steaming piles of trash.

If you want to find players with Ayton's experience with similar rebounding numbers you are, literally, forced to look at dudes who developed into superstars.