Pelicans @ Suns Tuesday Playoff game thread 4-26-2022 - Game 5

[Covert Rain]

Honestly looks like a pretty normal motion a player will make when they feel like there is contact. Plus he’s shooting a fadeaway which usually involves kicking that foot out.

Stupid. Like Chris could in mid-air intentionally decide and aim accurately to kick him in the crotch? If anything, they could have called an offensive common foul based on the new rule at WORST. Hollinger is an idiot on this.

 

[82CardsGrad]

If we had swept the Pelicans, DA’s rebounding stats would be just a minor concern. But in this series we have been killed on the boards and that fact has been directly responsible for the two times we lost. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have a CONVERSATION about it.

So... two things:

1.) We have indeed been killed on the boards... though, much less so last night.
2.) The connection to us being "killed" on the boards and focusing on Ayton as the root cause, is wrong...

Ayton himself, and this team as a whole, do not equate to Ayton sitting under the boards and grabbing 18 rebs a game. Ain't gonna happen...Never had happened... and never will happen.

Jonas had 5 more rebs than Ayton last night... Could Ayton grab a few more here or there? Sure... that would be just dandy I guess. But in terms of the impact on the game, it wouldn't have mattered in any game of this series thus far, if Ayton had a few extra rebs.
And, in Game 3 where he grabbed 17 boards and out-rebounded Jonas by 6, as a team the Suns still were outrebounded by the Pels by 10 rebounds!

If the expectation is simply to compare Jonas and DA and that DA is supposed to outrebound Jonas, I believe it's a misplaced expectation. These games are so tight NOT because DA is being outrebounded by Jonas... Last night is a prime example, where Jonas had 5 more than DA, and yet, because the TEAM were much more aggressive and shot 37% from three and 50% overall, we won going away... Despite Crowder and Payne's foul trouble.

Who knows... perhaps at some point later in his career, or, maybe on another team, DA will resemble more of a traditional C and hang out in the paint to do nothing more than build-up his rebound totals... But for now and on the Suns, it's just a total improper expectation to think he should be outrebounding a dude like Jonas.

 

[Covert Rain]

Exactly. This is what Payne brought to the table last night and more.

Huh? You asked why nobody is complaining about Alverado? My response is because he not only isn't make dumb mistakes like Payne and because he has outplayed Payne. Alverado hasn't been playing like Payne which is why nobody was complaining. If Alverado had been playing like Payne in this series I am sure he would be on the bench.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

DA guarding Jonas 20 feet away from the hoop, and grabs the rebound while Jonas was standing in cement.

Not trolling?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

@Ouchie-Z-Clown - at the 2:33 mark of the 2nd quarter, DA guarding Jonas, who shoots, misses and DA grabs the board!

Not trolling? You literally “@‘ed” me in this post.

 

[Covert Rain]

So... two things:

1.) We have indeed been killed on the boards... though, much less so last night.
2.) The connection to us being "killed" on the boards and focusing on Ayton as the root cause, is wrong...

Ayton himself, and this team as a whole, do not equate to Ayton sitting under the boards and grabbing 18 rebs a game. Ain't gonna happen...Never had happened... and never will happen.

Jonas had 5 more rebs than Ayton last night... Could Ayton grab a few more here or there? Sure... that would be just dandy I guess. But in terms of the impact on the game, it wouldn't have mattered in any game of this series thus far, if Ayton had a few extra rebs.
And, in Game 3 where he grabbed 17 boards and out-rebounded Jonas by 6, as a team the Suns still were outrebounded by the Pels by 10 rebounds!

If the expectation is simply to compare Jonas and DA and that DA is supposed to outrebound Jonas, I believe it's a misplaced expectation. These games are so tight NOT because DA is being outrebounded by Jonas... Last night is a prime example, where Jonas had 5 more than DA, and yet, because the TEAM were much more aggressive and shot 37% from three and 50% overall, we won going away... Despite Crowder and Payne's foul trouble.

Who knows... perhaps at some point later in his career, or, maybe on another team, DA will resemble more of a traditional C and hang out in the paint to do nothing more than build-up his rebound totals... But for now and on the Suns, it's just a total improper expectation to think he should be outrebounding a dude like Jonas.

Jonas is leading the NBA playoffs in rebounding. Only Gobert is close. He is a big body. I would expect most opposing centers in the playoffs to find him a challenge.

 

[Mainstreet]

Huh? You asked why nobody is complaining about Alverado? My response is because he not only isn't make dumb mistakes like Payne and because he has outplayed Payne. Alverado hasn't been playing like Payne which is why nobody was complaining. If Alverado had been playing like Payne in this series I am sure he would be on the bench.

Payne outplayed Alvarado last night. Why are some complaining so much about Cam Payne?

We know he made mistakes. Every player does.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This is like that I don’t think about you scene in madmen. You are really over estimating how I see you. You seriously spent the game trying to track Ayton and Jonas and thought you were being trolled in the game thread.

I honestly don’t care about your opinion on Ayton. We have done this for years. Doesn’t matter what he does you’ll be here complaining that he’s not doing more. Perfect example was last night. Great stat line really good defense a +19 and still here you are.

Let me give you some advice. If your always focusing on what you don’t have you’ll never appreciate what you do have.

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And they won didn’t they, which was our goal

Man you don’t get it because for you the world is apparently black and white. Ayton good! Ayton bad! That’s not real life, nor how I approach anybody this. And for someone who doesn’t care about my opinion you sure can’t help yourself in responding to every post I make and then attacking me. Try to back off the emotion and see this through logic and we can maybe have a reasonable conversation.

 

[82CardsGrad]

My quibble with this is if that is that if his main job is to box Jonas out to let other guys get boards, he hasn’t been overly effective doing that job as Jonas is averaging 15 rebounds on his own.

Ayton has played well in this series. Doesn’t mean he’s above criticism… (not directed at you) just like Bridges was at times in the series, just like Monty has been, just like CP3 has been, etc. etc. there’s a reason outside of Book’s injury that this series has been such a grind and it’s because almost every one of our best players haven’t played up to their best abilities each game.

Sure... no player is perfect and therefore always open for criticism. But the only player who has played consistently well this entire series - as in every game, is Ayton. Just seems odd to hyper-focus on him when the entire balance of the team has come up short.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Not trolling? You literally “@‘ed” me in this post.

Didn't realize just how sensitive you are man... Damn. I @'d you simply to make a point. Trolling? Seriously? Damn....

 

[82CardsGrad]

Not trolling?

Again... persecution complex much? Damn...

 

[82CardsGrad]

Jonas is leading the NBA playoffs in rebounding. Only Gobert is close. He is a big body. I would expect most opposing centers in the playoffs to find him a challenge.

Yep...

 

[Covert Rain]

Payne outplayed Alvarado last night. Why are some complaining so much about Cam Payne?

We know he made mistakes. Every player does.

Because Payne's mistakes are not just him "being off" recently with his bad decision making and out of control play. If this was out of the ordinary for Cam I would be there with you. It's not. He has played like this for some time now (over a month).

Payne and Alverado each had 12. Both provided some energy. Alverado also repeated causing turnovers. Not sure you can say Payne outplayed him. They had similar games.

I am not complaining about what he did well. I give him credit for that. Hopefully, this means he is on his way back but to call him back back? Yeah...no. Not yet.

 

[GatorAZ]

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If Flex is right about this then he’s officially legit.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I guess my eye test tells me Ayton is asked to do more guarding outside the paint too but if you tracked it and it's not true that's interesting.

I do think Valancuinis is a much better player than he gets credit for he's in double digit rebounds the last 4 years, the last 3 over 11. I do agree he's outrebounding Ayton.

Ayton's a very good player but I guess there's always been the perception he doesn't play as hard as he should

He absolutely guards outside the paint. I have never claimed he doesn’t. What I was tracking was whether that meant he was often caught out there when shots actually went up. What I discovered is it’s very rare. He goes out to cover on high pick plays, but because he does so it usually stops the shot from actually going up. Unless the offensive player decides to isolate and attack him directly (which didn’t happen often last night) what I saw was that he almost always switches back onto Jonas and gets back into good position for hitting the boards. In 58 of 61 possessions I watched he either remained in, or was able to switch back into, reasonable paint defense once an actual shot went up for which he would have to fight for a rebound. So while he defends the perimeter it isn’t overly hampering his rebounding as has been the contention.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's not about when it hurts them. I am talking about what he is being asked to do. Also, I have no idea where you are getting those numbers from. I just re-watched the entire 1st quarter. You are saying 3 times for the entire game but that's not true. Maybe our definition is different. To me when a player leaks out of the paint towards a perimeter player that counts. In the first quarter alone, I count 7 times either Ayton or McGee slid out of the paint towards a perimeter player. I have not even gotten through the other 3 quarters. Here are the time they slid away from the basket towards a perimeter player

7:00 - Ayton
5:46 - Ayton
4:41 - McGee Trap
3:05 - Ayton
2:20 - Ayton Trap
:52 - Covering Nance on perimeter then slid to Graham on the wing
.31 - Ayton covering Hayes on the wing

In the first quarter alone they leaked out multiple times to cover guys away from the paint which again according to post game was by design.

But a shot wasn’t taken each time they leaked out. So it didn’t impact their ability to rebound on those possessions. That’s my point. I have repeatedly stated that our bigs (Ayton in particular) defend on the perimeter. But our discussion is whether doing so impacts their ability to rebound. It doesn’t if they’re not still out there when the shot goes up.

 

[Covert Rain]

He absolutely guards outside the paint. I have never claimed he doesn’t. What I was tracking was whether that meant he was often caught out there when shots actually went up. What I discovered is it’s very rare. He goes out to cover on high pick plays, but because he does so it usually stops the shot from actually going up. Unless the offensive player decides to isolate and attack him directly (which didn’t happen often last night) what I saw was that he almost always switches back onto Jonas and gets back into good position for hitting the boards. In 58 of 61 possessions I watched he either remained in, or was able to switch back into, reasonable paint defense once an actual shot went up for which he would have to fight for a rebound. So while he defends the perimeter it isn’t overly hampering his rebounding as has been the contention.

I get what you are looking at now. However, my observation has been even if the guy he guards isn't putting up the shot, often those end up with swing passes and a shot that go up where he is rushing back into the paint to try and secure a rebound. That isn't easy to do when running back from a trap or guarding on the perimeter. That's still much different then when he is playing zone guarding the paint. To me, that is a very reasonable explanation as why he doesn't secure more.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am counting each time he leaks out from the paint to cover someone outside the paint. In another words, times he was NOT parked in the paint waiting for a rebound. Which was the basis for my point. His assignment on those plays was to cover someone outside the paint or trap someone outside the paint. In the post game they said the team wanted to make sure someone was rushing at especially Ingraham and McCollum verses giving them open looks.

And that’s why your analysis is faulty. It doesn’t matter if he goes out of the paint at the 20 second mark of the shot clock if he’s returned to the paint by the 13 second mark and the shot goes up at the 6 second mark. His defending on the perimeter 7 seconds previously doesn’t impact his ability to rebound when he’s in the paint when the shot goes up.

 

[82CardsGrad]

And that’s why your analysis is faulty. It doesn’t matter if he goes out of the paint at the 20 second mark of the shot clock if he’s returned to the paint by the 13 second mark and the shot goes up at the 6 second mark. His defending on the perimeter 7 seconds previously doesn’t impact his ability to rebound when he’s in the paint when the shot goes up.

Man... you're working hard dude. On an "issue" that actually isn't an "issue" at all... Have you always gone after Ayton this hard? Damn...

 

[Covert Rain]

And that’s why your analysis is faulty. It doesn’t matter if he goes out of the paint at the 20 second mark of the shot clock if he’s returned to the paint by the 13 second mark and the shot goes up at the 6 second mark. His defending on the perimeter 7 seconds previously doesn’t impact his ability to rebound when he’s in the paint when the shot goes up.

Huh? OK, let's see yours. How often is that scenario actually happening verses a quick shot being put up before he has time to reestablish himself in the paint, and box out to secure the rebound? You talk about my faulty analysis, but I can come up with a specific scenario out of the air too.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I get your point but have you looked at what the other centers and where they rank in every category? Jonas drops off the map in FG% and blocks. Gobert down in assists. Towns FG%. Embiid FG%. Ayton across the board is top 6 in most categories in the playoffs. Many of the others have drop off in other categories. Ayton is one of the most well rounded centers statistically in the playoffs bar none. However, some just nitpick the guy to death. I get frustrated with him too sometimes but then I have to take a step back to say he is one of the best period.

P.S. What frustrates me the most about him is those nights he just vanishes. That goes back to my biggest criticism about him. Consistency.

No one is nitpicking him to death. We are just talking about whether the way he’s deployed hurts his rebounding. Literally that’s it. He’s pretty widely lauded on ASFN now.

 

[Covert Rain]

No one is nitpicking him to death. We are just talking about whether the way he’s deployed hurts his rebounding. Literally that’s it. He’s pretty widely lauded on ASFN now.

You can search Ayton and see tons of nitpicking. Come on now. Even I am guilty of that from time to time.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Rebounding is a team thing. Not just an Ayton thing. Pick your poison. You can't rotate out and trap guys and cover the paint at the same time. I completely disagree with your brother's assessment. Our Centers last night were rotating out and trapping guys all night outside the paint. You can't box out to rebound and do that at the same time. IMO, it worked not giving McCollum and Ingraham all these open looks. Plus the Suns were only outrebounded by 7. The TEAM stepped up and did better.

Lol I don’t know if you’re being purposefully obtuse because you have no counter to what I broke down last night or just don’t understand that when the ball was shot - you know, the only time a rebound could be available - Ayton was in the paint 58 of 61 times. He wasn’t trapping at that point in time. The laws of physics don’t allow for what you’re suggesting is happening.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Honestly looks like a pretty normal motion a player will make when they feel like there is contact. Plus he’s shooting a fadeaway which usually involves kicking that foot out.

The foot kick offensive foul is the one new call that i really disagree. It’s a really common motion, particularly if you’re fading back or to the side. It’s literally a counterbalance.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

My question would be how often was he recovering to the paint in these scenarios. Because if he is recovering to the paint after Jonas already has established position down there it is going to be much more difficult for Ayton to get position for the rebound. I don’t doubt that he could be rebounding better, but I think it fair to suggest that because of how much he defends the perimeter it is going to put him out of position for some of these rebounds that are going to NO.

None of them. I established that before the game when discussing what would count for what with 82. I agree that if he’s just getting back into the paint that puts him at a disadvantage.