Peterson to replace Wilson?

Duckjake

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Today on local radio a scout for the Dallas Cowboys stated that the days of the box Safety in the NFL are over. This is the second time I've heard that in the last week.

The scout was talking about moving CBs with attributes like Peterson's to the Safety position to replace the big hitters like Wilson and Lynch etc.

Sit Wilson and play Peterson and Rhodes at safety and DRC and Toler at CB?

I'd go along with that.
 

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This may be true.

Sitting Wilson right now would be a bit extreme however. I like the idea of moving Peterson to safet within the next 2-3 years however. If Cromartie isn't already gone to Philly it's going to be too hard to invest the amount of money needed to keep Cromartie and Peterson at cb.

Ughh..I hate thinking about this because if the cards could only get a decent pass rush they could be an elite D
 

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Today on local radio a scout for the Dallas Cowboys stated that the days of the box Safety in the NFL are over. This is the second time I've heard that in the last week.

The scout was talking about moving CBs with attributes like Peterson's to the Safety position to replace the big hitters like Wilson and Lynch etc.

Sit Wilson and play Peterson and Rhodes at safety and DRC and Toler at CB?

I'd go along with that.

You could put a Peterson's attributes at any position in the defensive backfield and be happy with the results.

The Cards and PP7's plan are for him to play CB. There was an article recently that he lost some weight (Lott's expectation) and weighs about 212 now. That's not a smart plan if you are going to put him at SS.

Adub as plenty of speed and does well in zone coverages, he just can't cover well man to man on a consistent basis. He has trouble locating the ball when it's in the air if his back is to the line of scrimmage.

Now if Horton can't figure out how to best use Adub then I will think about your plan but at this point I want see how he bounces back from the injury etc.
 

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Horton will capitalize on Wilson's blitzing prowess---he will be moved around and sent into the backfield from a variety of different angles---with a lot of zone and combo zone/man coverages behind.

Wilson is still the most explosive pass rusher on the roster.
 
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Duckjake

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Horton will capitalize on Wilson's blitzing prowess---he will be moved around and sent into the backfield from a variety of different angles---with a lot of zone and combo zone/man coverages behind.

Wilson is still the most explosive pass rusher on the roster.

But is that what you want from your Safeties? A guy whose main purpose is Blitzing and hasn't been very successful the last 4 seasons? Ryan Clark and Troy Palomalu have only 2 sacks between them total the last 4 seasons. Are you sure Horton wants to blitz the safety? Will Adrian, a true box Safety, become a situational player coming out on passing downs?

It will be interesting to see how things play out with the 5 guys we have at DB. Like I said before, on paper :stick:, this is the most talent we've had in the secondary in a long time so Horton should be able to work a lot of different things with them.
 

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Today on local radio a scout for the Dallas Cowboys stated that the days of the box Safety in the NFL are over. This is the second time I've heard that in the last week.

The scout was talking about moving CBs with attributes like Peterson's to the Safety position to replace the big hitters like Wilson and Lynch etc.

Sit Wilson and play Peterson and Rhodes at safety and DRC and Toler at CB?

I'd go along with that.


What the heck are you DRINKING...???:bang:
 

Early

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Horton will capitalize on Wilson's blitzing prowess---he will be moved around and sent into the backfield from a variety of different angles---with a lot of zone and combo zone/man coverages behind.

Wilson is still the most explosive pass rusher on the roster.

Hey Mitch man, how are you doing?

Totally agree with you, as always. Polamalu is not that special either in coverage. He is something special as the total package, as DB, LB, passrusher, everything - a football player.

Wilson is also a football player, and if there was a room for those in Lebeau's scheme, there should be here as well. I doubt Peterson would do well instead of Polamalu, and not because of lack of coverage skills.

Every single mistake Adrian did, was due to man to man coverage assignments. I don't remember him messing it up in zone coverage that bad, in the box, backfield, or tackling. He is the best football player we have on defense. By far.

However, he suits the zone defense. Every single mistake was due to him being asked to man cover a TE. He can't do it, and neither can Polamalu to be honest, you just don't see it exposed cause he isn't asked to do that, they run exclusively complicated zones, they know when to help each other to perfection. Anybody thinks Polamalu would have shut down Vernon Davis 1 on 1 and with no help from anywhere? The calls were awful, Davis (Billy) is an awful football mind, and the scheme was just as awful as his calls. And honestly, much of this indicates that Whisenhunt is just as bad as understanding defense. He is simply not making an unified philosophy on the defense, he keeps failing at that.

We have quiet many great football players on the defensive side of the roster, let me write down what i think:

Adrian Wilson: Zone coverage only, Tampa-2 , but much more so the Cover 3 in the box and all over underneath.

DRC : Amazing man to man corner ability skills. Fits nothing else.

Dockett: Plays only 3 technique. Only a 4-3 defense can be dominant with him as tackle. Only, and i mean only, a 3-tech. Fits Tampa-2 by far the most, but can also be effective in 4-3 cover 3 base.

Peterson: From college tapes - Only man to man, confused playing zones, done it few times only and didn't look good. Huge gamble to trust in zones at this point.

Washington - Can play zones and man but only in 4-3 he can be dominant. Struggles alot with lineman and doesn't fit 3-4 at all. Would be good in Cover 3 zone base, and would absolutely dominate in Tampa-2.

The other players on the defensive side can easy be adjusted to any style of football - whether that is a four or three man front on the front 7, or a man to man or zone scheme on the second level. But these 5 players, half of our starters, are only fitting one style and they don't have that scheme flexibility.

The key to success is getting a unified philosophy for the players i listed above. They all require a single scheme to shine and really help to make a defense dominant. You can play man to man and get amazing coverage with our corners. But you will be burned for TD when you are forced to put Wilson in man to man on a TE two or three times per game, comes in blitzing situations. It happens that you get forced to do that.

You can put Dockett at 5 tech and let him play there like at 3 tech, the only thing he knows. But there are only 3 lineman and the LB's will have a hard time on running downs. They will run into offensive lineman more often. Hayes covered up much of that, you have never seen a LB in his prime being so great at shedding offensive lineman. But he is not here anymore, we now have an undersized LB that can't handle pulling lineman. Again, lack of unified philosophy.

You can play zones and move Wilson all over the place and he will look like Polamalu much of the time. But DRC and Peterson are going to make many stupid reads and failing executing the complicated pattern reading system.

All this means that Horton needs to adjust much more. And the more you nee to adjust, the harder it gets to understand what's going on and what to call, when.

The hardest thing for building a great defense is matching all the players skills so they fit the scheme in a way that makes the best defense. As Dolphins long time ago have shown and several other teams, you can have a group of no names out there, but if they fit the scheme and each other and you get good play calling, you can still dominate.

I don't know how Horton will handle all this, but i hope he is really smart and has learned alot, it won't be so easy as on a team where all the players skill match the scheme and where chemistry and trust is so good.

The best teams in the league are those that believe and stay within their scheme and philosophy. Colts always draft players that fit the Tampa-2, undersized DE's. Steelers always draft lineman with two gap potential and LB's that know how to passrush. Just some examples.

Cardinals are going in two opposite directions. All over the place. I hate that.

We draft a man coverage CB just after our new defensive coach has stated he will only run zones. We have a whole O-Line that is better suited to run the ball, yet we throw the football so much. Etc. etc. That's what my biggest problem is. We have plenty of talent, but we need to bring all that together and make it work.
 
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Duckjake

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Polamalu is not that special either in coverage. He is something special as the total package, as DB, LB, passrusher, everything - a football player.

He has 1 sack in 4 years.

He is the best football player we have on defense. By far.

Used to be. The league has changed and Wilson has 10 years wear on his body. If he still is the best football player we have on defense by far then it is no wonder our defense was horrible last season and for most of the last 3 years.

However, he suits the zone defense. Every single mistake was due to him being asked to man cover a TE. He can't do it, and neither can Polamalu to be honest, you just don't see it exposed cause he isn't asked to do that, they run exclusively complicated zones, they know when to help each other to perfection. Anybody thinks Polamalu would have shut down Vernon Davis 1 on 1 and with no help from anywhere? The calls were awful, Davis (Billy) is an awful football mind, and the scheme was just as awful as his calls. And honestly, much of this indicates that Whisenhunt is just as bad as understanding defense. He is simply not making an unified philosophy on the defense, he keeps failing at that.

One thing the scout mentioned, the good defenses don't do this anymore and the old box safeties that could run with the old version of TEs don't fit the new schemes.
 
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Duckjake

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What the heck are you DRINKING...???:bang:

If teams are going 3,4,5 wide and throwing the ball 600+ times a season why do you need a Safety who is basically a LB?

On the other hand if you mean that I'd have to be drinking to listen to anything a Cowboys employee said I can see your point.
 

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I disagree that the future of football is less "in the box safeties." I honestly think the future will be having three safeties on the field at a time at the expense of one linebacker. The game continues to get faster and faster so more DB's will be needed to counteract this speed.
 

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I think that Kerry Rhodes (who actually bears more comparison to Polumalu in skill set, IMO) will replace Adrian Wilson in a couple of years and Rashad Johnson will move into the free safety role and will be all right.

This secondary is talented enough to be very good if they had any support at all from a pass rush and a front seven in front of them.
 

football karma

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moving inside to safety is far harder than most give credit

college cb is usually about worrying about one guy -- the one in your zone or the one you are covering

pro safety is about reading the whole field, recognizing route combos, etc
 
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Duckjake

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I disagree that the future of football is less "in the box safeties." I honestly think the future will be having three safeties on the field at a time at the expense of one linebacker. The game continues to get faster and faster so more DB's will be needed to counteract this speed.

Right, but a box safety is basically a smaller LB who doesn't have the speed. What I am hearing, and from more than one source, is that K9 is right and you are as well and we will see more Kerry Rhodes type safeties and fewer Adrian Wilson, John Lynch type players with teams using guys like Rhodes as the nickel back instead of Mike Adams.
 

AzStevenCal

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I think that Kerry Rhodes (who actually bears more comparison to Polumalu in skill set, IMO) will replace Adrian Wilson in a couple of years and Rashad Johnson will move into the free safety role and will be all right.

This secondary is talented enough to be very good if they had any support at all from a pass rush and a front seven in front of them.

Quite so, especially if we can figure out how to keep the offense on the field for more than a few plays at a time.

Steve
 

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We will all have a new respect for our "D" the day we have a competent QB.

The Cards were minus over 4 minutes a game in time of possession last season. They were even or a bit better in Warner's last two seasons.
 

Early

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He has 1 sack in 4 years.



Used to be. The league has changed and Wilson has 10 years wear on his body. If he still is the best football player we have on defense by far then it is no wonder our defense was horrible last season and for most of the last 3 years.



One thing the scout mentioned, the good defenses don't do this anymore and the old box safeties that could run with the old version of TEs don't fit the new schemes.

Ok then take the passrusher out, it doesn't take the point away at all. He is one of the most complete and pure football players in NFL. Wilson belongs up there as well. He is basically a safety and a LB and a DE in one player. Just like Polamalu is several different positions in one.

Our defense was horrible due to Billy Davis and Ken Whisenhunt. Polamalu would not have changed that at all. It was not due to talent, it was due to coaches not knowing how to use talent better. I don't think we had talent/scheme fit to make a dominant defense. Players don't fit a single scheme enough to do that. But we could have had much better defense using another type of scheme, coaching and playcalling.

For your last comment, i also disagree. Polamalu would also be bad in coverage if he played for the Cardinals - but playing on a defense that know how to help each other out, his other skills can be used all over the field, from the backfield to deep back in secondary.

Teams that don't know how to scheme that, are forced to put safeties in man to man against TE's often. Polamalu is used in the box often but in coverage they always know how to help him out, when, and they know how he can help others most of the time That's why they are a much better defense. With help Wilson is also very effective in coverage. A good defense, best defense, that still uses that Wilson type of player very effectively. So the scout is not entirely correct.
 

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But is that what you want from your Safeties? A guy whose main purpose is Blitzing and hasn't been very successful the last 4 seasons? Ryan Clark and Troy Palomalu have only 2 sacks between them total the last 4 seasons. Are you sure Horton wants to blitz the safety? Will Adrian, a true box Safety, become a situational player coming out on passing downs?

It will be interesting to see how things play out with the 5 guys we have at DB. Like I said before, on paper :stick:, this is the most talent we've had in the secondary in a long time so Horton should be able to work a lot of different things with them.

Neither Polamalu nor Ryan Clark are in Wilson's league as blitzers.

IMO that's one of the biggest failings of our defensive scheme since Whisenhunt has taken over, not blitzing Wilson often.

Pressure is very important, and if it takes bringing Wilson as a blitzer, then you do it often. Pittsburgh also doesn't have to blitz their safeties much since they have Harrison, Woodley, Farrior, and Timmons, all competent blitzing LBs.
 

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IMO that's one of the biggest failings of our defensive scheme since Whisenhunt has taken over, not blitzing Wilson often.

I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I think Wilson blitzed more than you would have expected last year. The issue wasn't a matter of blitzing him too infrequently, rather a problem with his effectiveness while blitzing. He got stopped easily or overran the QB way too often.
 

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Neither Polamalu nor Ryan Clark are in Wilson's league as blitzers.

IMO that's one of the biggest failings of our defensive scheme since Whisenhunt has taken over, not blitzing Wilson often.

Pressure is very important, and if it takes bringing Wilson as a blitzer, then you do it often. Pittsburgh also doesn't have to blitz their safeties much since they have Harrison, Woodley, Farrior, and Timmons, all competent blitzing LBs.

Sorry, but Wilson was being blitzed all the time the last three seasons. Go back and watch the tape and you'll see Wilson close to the line constantly. The difference between now and three or four years ago is that Wilson can't get through one-on-one blocking. Part of that was that he's just too small to be a blitzer the way he was being used (almost always straight ahead after being lined up on either side of the DE), and another part of that was being uncreative with blitz design--that part's on Bill Davis.

Wilson was being played at DE at the end of the 2010 season in order to get him his 20/20 mark. The problem in 2011 wasn't that Wilson wasn't being played close to the line enough. The problem was that teams weren't being put in obvious passing situations because Wilson and other players couldn't wrap up ball-carriers. The Arizona Cardinals were 30th in the NFL in rushing attempts against. We were 16th in the league in pass attempts against but still gave up the 9th-most yardage in the league.

The structural problem is that teams are putting four or five guys out into patterns in the passing game, and you have to have someone to cover those guys. You can't blitz five or six when there are four in coverage and not expect to come up on the losing end when Wilson or Porter or someone doesn't break through.

Ok then take the passrusher out, it doesn't take the point away at all. He is one of the most complete and pure football players in NFL. Wilson belongs up there as well. He is basically a safety and a LB and a DE in one player. Just like Polamalu is several different positions in one.

Our defense was horrible due to Billy Davis and Ken Whisenhunt. Polamalu would not have changed that at all. It was not due to talent, it was due to coaches not knowing how to use talent better. I don't think we had talent/scheme fit to make a dominant defense. Players don't fit a single scheme enough to do that. But we could have had much better defense using another type of scheme, coaching and playcalling.

For your last comment, i also disagree. Polamalu would also be bad in coverage if he played for the Cardinals - but playing on a defense that know how to help each other out, his other skills can be used all over the field, from the backfield to deep back in secondary.

Teams that don't know how to scheme that, are forced to put safeties in man to man against TE's often. Polamalu is used in the box often but in coverage they always know how to help him out, when, and they know how he can help others most of the time That's why they are a much better defense. With help Wilson is also very effective in coverage. A good defense, best defense, that still uses that Wilson type of player very effectively. So the scout is not entirely correct.

Wilson was in position to make plays constantly last year--that's to Bill Davis's credit and the credit of the scheme. You can't simultaneously say that Adrian Wilson is one of the best players in the NFL and that you have to design your defense to cover up the massive liabilities that he presents.

Wilson got worse when Dansby left because Dansby could turn and run with most TEs and even some slot WRs. Dansby and Wilson effectively traded positions in some schemes last year. One of the QBs that this drove crazy was Brett Favre. But when Dansby left there was no other player to hide Wilson's weaknesses. When opposing teams discovered this, they designed plays to put their TEs in a position where Wilson has to cover them one-on-one. What can Bill Davis or anyone do in this case?

Duck's right that Wilson isn't a threat against TEs in the seams anymore because he's afraid to punish them with big hits. Wilson can't cover anyone; earlier in his career he was able to intimidate slot WRs and TEs from coming into his area by taking their heads off. Now he pulls up and his inability to turn and run with guys makes him a disaster in coverage.

Wilson's a very good player when he's moving forward, and in zone coverage he can be effective recognizing plays as they develop and getting into position to disrupt them. But unless he has the pressure of covering for extended periods of time taken off of him by a legitimate pass rush threat (something that wasn't addressed in the draft until the 4th round), then there's no defensive design that you can come up with that prevents him from having to cover. You either have to take a big body off the field (either an OLB or defensive lineman), which makes you susceptible to the big run (and we did last year to obvious results), or you have to hope that the opposing QB just doesn't notice that his TE is matched up with Wilson.
 

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Sorry, but Wilson was being blitzed all the time the last three seasons. Go back and watch the tape and you'll see Wilson close to the line constantly. The difference between now and three or four years ago is that Wilson can't get through one-on-one blocking. Part of that was that he's just too small to be a blitzer the way he was being used (almost always straight ahead after being lined up on either side of the DE), and another part of that was being uncreative with blitz design--that part's on Bill Davis.

He often has the backside covered on running downs, he has the closing speed and wrap up ability that is so rare. Just because he is at the line and you see him often there, doesn't mean he plays DE. Wilson was never that great a passrusher. He was just used alot by Pandergast and now also Davis as that 4th, 5th or 6th man surprise against certain calls. Whenever you use someone from secondary on a not so expected blitz, the player is going to get many free sacks. Many corners have very high sacks per attempt ratios due to this fact. He is solid passrusher being a safety, he definitely is, but he would never survive on every down basis. He got the sacks he got because of Pandergast and his creative schemes to open up players. It's not like he beats tackles on constant basis in 4 man rush. He got his sacks as the 5th and 6th on well timed blitzes and against TE's, RB's, FB's and free lanes. I don't like that you and everyone else label him as "passrusher", "DE", and pretty much everyone else on NFL network. He is solid at that part, executing a blitz if he gets open. It's just a small part of his wide range of football skills. He also has the ability to sometimes to beat a tackle, but he is not doing that with a rate like some great passrushers do.

What he is so great at is also what Polamalu is so great at. Polamalu is just even better at each of those skills IMO. Covering the backside, reading running lanes, tackling, making big hits, making all kinds of plays in general when he gets the chance, covering zones, especially underneath middle and deep 1/3. Intensity, trust, execution, leadership.

Put a real football player like Wilson on a team with a good Defensive coordinator. You would know then what i'm talking about.

The problem was that teams weren't being put in obvious passing situations because Wilson and other players couldn't wrap up ball-carriers. The Arizona Cardinals were 30th in the NFL in rushing attempts against. We were 16th in the league in pass attempts against but still gave up the 9th-most yardage in the league.

That part is not due to Wilson but due to Dockett, Rhodes, Washnington, DRC etc. All the mentioned are huge liability in stopping the run. Wilson is by far one of the best defensive backs in NFL in reading lanes and wrapping up and tackling. He can rival most LB's in these instincts. He had an unusual down year this year, but look over his career and he is one of the better tacklers you will come around. Everyone had a down year in general and it was wuiet obvious it was the coaching that was the big issue.

The structural problem is that teams are putting four or five guys out into patterns in the passing game, and you have to have someone to cover those guys. You can't blitz five or six when there are four in coverage and not expect to come up on the losing end when Wilson or Porter or someone doesn't break through.

These guys can easy be covered if you have a smart playcaller and a team that has chemistry between the players and scheme. We don't.

Wilson was in position to make plays constantly last year--that's to Bill Davis's credit and the credit of the scheme. You can't simultaneously say that Adrian Wilson is one of the best players in the NFL and that you have to design your defense to cover up the massive liabilities that he presents.

He was out of the position to make plays. Most of the players were not in chemistry with each other. The scheme was horrible. Nobody got any help. And so didn't Wilson. He was left alone in way too many situations and as we have seen in those situations, even Polamalu is failing often. They are just limited there. For Cardinals, they are exposed. Not only in regards to SS position. Every position. You need help, there are 11 players out there. He has no "massive liabilities". It is the scheme of the Cardinals that is the massive liability. He can't cover a TE 1 on 1. It's the job of Billy Davis to never be outschemed and be put in that situation. It's Davis that lost that battle. There is only one safety that can cover guys like Vernon Davis 1-on-1 entire way from LOS to deep. Maybe even that is not true, most likely nobody. Charles Woodson had huge problems with him in the slot, even with on a south bracket from underneath, and i don't want to imagine that changing with no help from top, just being worse. Every time one of your defensive backs end up in 1 on 1 matchups with best TE's of the league, with nobody to help, you have lost the chess game.

Wilson got worse when Dansby left because Dansby could turn and run with most TEs and even some slot WRs.

Steelers have nobody that can do that. Yet neither of the LB's or safeties has that issue. Many other examples, just to name one.

What can Bill Davis or anyone do in this case?

There is hundreds things you can do. That's the fun part of football, X's and O's. Davis failed as he did his entire life trying to understand an 11 player game. Good LB coach that knows how to help a unit of 3 or 4 players, but he doesn't belong in NFL as coordinator. If you maybe can't see how teams are bracketing TE's east west and north south and exchanging 3-2 pattern reads to minimize the amount of time each player spends in man coverage, than i can understand you are like Billy Davis in this case, "What can I do"? There are hundreds things to do, Davis just got outmatched. It's that simple.
 

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Early,

It's frustrating to talk about this with you because there aren't "hundreds of things you can do" on these downs. There are only certain options that a coordinator has.

Poor tackling has been a bete noire for Wilson his entire career. He corrected it in the 2010 season for the most part, but it returned with a vengeance in 2011; look no further than Wilson's tackle attempt against Brian Westbrook's decomposing body at home against San Francisco to see how. Wilson was in position to make plays consistently last year--including in one-on-one coverage against tight ends--but was unable to make the play.

If Wilson is the unquestioned leader of the defense, why was leadership a problem--especially in a secondary unit where they were questioning the coaching staff on Twitter during the season?

I like Wilson, but he's not a player that you can build your defense around. He's a very good secondary piece. His assets are great where they are, but his liabilities are much greater than a guy like Polumalu, who you assert is an inferior player to Wilson without providing any evidence or explanation. Only one of those guys has been NFL Defensive Player of the Year, and there's a reason.

Put yourself in the defensive coordinator's shoes, and explain to me how you highlight Wilson's strengths and hide his weaknesses. More importantly, how do you prevent the first down?

  • It's Sunday, November 1, 2010 and the Arizona Cardinals are visiting the Kansas City Chiefs.
  • The Cardinals lead 17-7 in the early 3rd quarter.
  • The Chiefs have advanced the ball to their own 47 yard line.
  • It's 3rd and 6.
  • The Chiefs come out in a personnel grouping of WRs Dewayne Bowe, Chris Chambers, Dexter McCluster, TE Tony Moeaki, and RB Jamaal Charles to go along with their regular offensive line group of Branden Albert, Brian Waters, Casey Wiegmann, Ryan Lilja, and Barry Richardson (from left to right).
  • The Chiefs flex Moeaki into the slot inside McCluster and Chambers.

What do you do?
 

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Concerning Wilson as a blitzer and Horton and Pitt's blitzing schemes.

Dick Lebaeu's blitzing scheme actually makes his CB's blitz more often then his safeties if I remember the stat correctly.
 
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