PFT: Cardinals housecleaning this off season?

[machgman]

Bickley chatted with Warner

Warner noted that he doesn't think the offense is being tailored enough to what each QB does well

Kurt noted that he shaped the offense so that it fit how he "saw" things

Bickley chronicled the Warner / Haley dynamic during 2008 -- hit Whis for passing on the chance to add Haley this offseason.

FWIW: some of the Warner stuff coming from Kurt seemed to me to be a bit self serving / self congratulatory.

When Warner retired instead of playing behind deteriorating offensive line play, his mere absence caused the total wreck and destruction of the feared Cards Offensive Machine that caused headaches, sleepless nights, and losses of jobs to their opponents as well as taking the Cards to their very first Super Bowl, how can you actually think reciting the truth to be self-serving or self-congratulatory?

Is it any wonder that the absence of Kurt Warner has turned Fitz from the NFL's top superstar receiver into an above average receiver who now routinely drops catchable passes? How about the current practice, ever since Warner left, when other teams see the Cards in their schedule and automatically mark it as should win even before the season ever begins?

As for football cred, who do we have or Cards have who ever has been named NFL MVP or Super Bowl MVP, or holds the NFL accuracy passing mark or has the most or second most 300+ passing yard games, or can say he and other talented players put the NFL's sorriest and losingest franchise on their backs and took the Cards to their very first Super Bowl? BTW, until Warner and other players did this, the Cards were the worst team for never or longest span of time to not ever have had a Super Bowl appearance.

And you see Warner's remarks as being self-serving and self-congratulatory? Players that do, can talk the talk. Does that can't, should should at lest show good manners and keep quiet (like Whisenhut).

Ever since Warner left, the Cards (meaning Graves, Whisenhut, and Bidwills) have not been very friendly with Warner as they feel he left them high and dry and should have been willing to risk his future health behind an every increasingly bad offensive line. That's OK, as word is out that Warner will enter the HOF as a RAM instead of a Cardinal. Take THAT insult, Bidwills.

 

[machgman]

Whisenhut needs to lead the list of Cardinal employees who need to be fired. Except for Warner who would not put up with his nonsense, Whisenhut has been a QB career killer and shown he has no clue on developing any QB. BTW, Roethlisberger seconds that.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

FWIW: some of the Warner stuff coming from Kurt seemed to me to be a bit self serving / self congratulatory.

For good reason.

He has all the proof to back up his talk he will ever need.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

When Warner retired instead of playing behind deteriorating offensive line play, his mere absence caused the total wreck and destruction of the feared Cards Offensive Machine that caused headaches, sleepless nights, and losses of jobs to their opponents as well as taking the Cards to their very first Super Bowl, how can you actually think reciting the truth to be self-serving or self-congratulatory?

Is it any wonder that the absence of Kurt Warner has turned Fitz from the NFL's top superstar receiver into an above average receiver who now routinely drops catchable passes? How about the current practice, ever since Warner left, when other teams see the Cards in their schedule and automatically mark it as should win even before the season ever begins?

As for football cred, who do we have or Cards have who ever has been named NFL MVP or Super Bowl MVP, or holds the NFL accuracy passing mark or has the most or second most 300+ passing yard games, or can say he and other talented players put the NFL's sorriest and losingest franchise on their backs and took the Cards to their very first Super Bowl? BTW, until Warner and other players did this, the Cards were the worst team for never or longest span of time to not ever have had a Super Bowl appearance.

And you see Warner's remarks as being self-serving and self-congratulatory? Players that do, can talk the talk. Does that can't, should should at lest show good manners and keep quiet (like Whisenhut).

Ever since Warner left, the Cards (meaning Graves, Whisenhut, and Bidwills) have not been very friendly with Warner as they feel he left them high and dry and should have been willing to risk his future health behind an every increasingly bad offensive line. That's OK, as word is out that Warner will enter the HOF as a RAM instead of a Cardinal. Take THAT insult, Bidwills.

Players enter as INDIVIDUALS into the Pro Football Hall of Fame, unlike baseball. TAKE THAT correction.

 

[Totally_Red]

I wouldn't go with horribly mismanaged, our defense has improve, our special teams has been solid or better with Spencer, drafts have been improving over time...really - our coaching of the offense and the QB/OLine personnel has been terrible. I don't think anyone reasonably believe that Graves or Whiz is going anywhere this offseason unless everything falls apart the next 6 games. If we don't see some coaching changes on the offense this offseason, then next year will likely be Whiz's last

I agree with a lot of this.

It should be patently obvious that Ken Whisenhunt's offense demands a solid and talented quarterback, e.g. on the level of Big Ben or Kurt Warner.

Until the Cardinals acquire that quarterback, they will continue to struggle on offense in my opinion. With a healthy Levi Brown and a rejuvenated and healthy Peyton Manning at the controls, the Cardinals offense is probably at least respectable. With a group of rookies and cast-off veterans on the offensive line and a bunch of questionable talent at quarterback, the Whisenhunt offense has descended into nothing. Defenses blanket Larry Fitzgerald and stone the running game and the offense folds. It is extremely depressing after witnessing 2008 and 2009.

Changes obviously must be made at the end of the season. Kevin Kolb takes a large pay cut or is released. Grimm and Miller are gone. And Whis is told in no uncertain terms to produce in 2013 or he's gone as well.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Whisenhut needs to lead the list of Cardinal employees who need to be fired. Except for Warner who would not put up with his nonsense, Whisenhut has been a QB career killer and shown he has no clue on developing any QB. BTW, Roethlisberger seconds that.

BIM: WhisenhuNt.

(If you're going to endlessly slag him, at least learn to spell his name correctly)

BTW: We know what the rapist thinks.

 

[daves]

Except for Warner who would not put up with his nonsense, Whisenhut has been a QB career killer and shown he has no clue on developing any QB. BTW, Roethlisberger seconds that.

Yep, he sure killed Roethlisberger's career on the way to that 15-1 record in his rookie season and getting him his Super Bowl ring in his second season. And then he killed the careers of such bright lights as Matt "Didn't know i had to work hard in the NFL" Leinart, Derek "It's not funny" Anderson, Brian "Who?" St. Pierre, Max "Moxie" Hall, and Rich "Pre-season HOF" Bartel.

...dave

 

[Superfuzz]

The Cardinals are a charter member of the NFL, joining the league in 1920.

Looks like someone is starting to get his facts straight!

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/29/whisenhunt-knows-his-seat-is-getting-hot/

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Honestly while getting caught up in the disappointment of the season I was starting to get behind firing Whiz, but I have started to change my mind. Largely this is because the disappointment is starting to fade a little with time and I can see things a little more clearly.

This team has been decimated with injuries to the offense and though it has a good defense they are not yet at the point where they can consistently single-handedly win games for the team. On the bright side the young tackles are starting to look pretty solid and if they continue to improve over the next few year (as they should) they should be pretty good starters for this team.

I would give this coaching staff one last year to prove they can get it done and hopefully won't be hit so hard with injuries on one side of the ball. If Te'o and Jarvis Jones are off the board when they draft they should be looking QB (Wilson, Barkley, Smith) IMO. Obviously if there is a very good Tackle or Guard available that is worthy of an early 1st round pick than you take him.

Edit: I realize it is a little early to be talking draft picks simply because the combine should clarify player draft stock. Some of the players I listed may not even be considered 1st rounders after the combine.

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Honestly while getting caught up in the disappointment of the season I was starting to get behind firing Whiz, but I have started to change my mind. Largely this is because the disappointment is starting to fade a little with time and I can see things a little more clearly.

Ironically, I am starting to warm to firing Whiz, although the remaining schedule has to play out. After watching Skelton and Kolb last year, I still cannot fathom why a third QB wasn't added. When Brown went down and the backup OT went down, I cannot fathom why a third QB wasn't brought in. When Kolb went down, I cannot fathom why a vet QB wasn't added so we weren't counting on a rookie to backup up Skelton. Lindley playing and failing to win is a direct result of not having an insurance plan, and that is a result of someone, I am assuming Whiz. After the last two years of TERRIBLE quaterback play, why we would even attempt running with a rookie backup is insane. If this is the insanity of Whiz, I think he should be fired for idiocy. If this is a front office decision...well, Whiz shouldn't be fired, I should be for supporting the organization as a fan.

 

[Stout]

Honestly while getting caught up in the disappointment of the season I was starting to get behind firing Whiz, but I have started to change my mind. Largely this is because the disappointment is starting to fade a little with time and I can see things a little more clearly.

This team has been decimated with injuries to the offense and though it has a good defense they are not yet at the point where they can consistently single-handedly win games for the team. On the bright side the young tackles are starting to look pretty solid and if they continue to improve over the next few year (as they should) they should be pretty good starters for this team.

I would give this coaching staff one last year to prove they can get it done and hopefully won't be hit so hard with injuries on one side of the ball. If Te'o and Jarvis Jones are off the board when they draft they should be looking QB (Wilson, Barkley, Smith) IMO. Obviously if there is a very good Tackle or Guard available that is worthy of an early 1st round pick than you take him.

Edit: I realize it is a little early to be talking draft picks simply because the combine should clarify player draft stock. Some of the players I listed may not even be considered 1st rounders after the combine.

The last 3 seasons: 2 6-game losing streaks, and a current 7-game losing streak. No excuses.

 

[Mulli]

The last 3 seasons: 2 6-game losing streaks, and a current 7-game losing streak. No excuses.

 

[kerouac9]

Yep, he sure killed Roethlisberger's career on the way to that 15-1 record in his rookie season and getting him his Super Bowl ring in his second season. And then he killed the careers of such bright lights as Matt "Didn't know i had to work hard in the NFL" Leinart, Derek "It's not funny" Anderson, Brian "Who?" St. Pierre, Max "Moxie" Hall, and Rich "Pre-season HOF" Bartel.

...dave

Maybe he didn't kill all of their careers, but with the exception of Leinart, he did hand-pick each of them and--with the exception of St. Pierre--decided that they had the ability to win games (and often start) in the National Football League.

Embarrassing.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Maybe he didn't kill all of their careers, but with the exception of Leinart, he did hand-pick each of them and--with the exception of St. Pierre--decided that they had the ability to win games (and often start) in the National Football League.

Embarrassing.

I don't know how any of the above can be rationally debated.

 

[Stout]

I don't know how any of the above can be rationally debated.

Truth.

 

[CtCardinals78]

Yep, he sure killed Roethlisberger's career on the way to that 15-1 record in his rookie season and getting him his Super Bowl ring in his second season. And then he killed the careers of such bright lights as Matt "Didn't know i had to work hard in the NFL" Leinart, Derek "It's not funny" Anderson, Brian "Who?" St. Pierre, Max "Moxie" Hall, and Rich "Pre-season HOF" Bartel.

...dave

Roethlisberger under Bruce Arians is 1,000,000,000 times the QB he ever was under Whisenhunt. He's even a better QB under Todd Haley, which for the life of me I can't understand why he wasn't brought back to AZ as OC.

 

[WildBB]

If they were going to do it, it's best to do it this offseason and eat the $5.5 mil for a couple of reasons.

1) You don't want this regime drafting a QB and then fire him next offseason and have the next HC stuck with a QB he doesn't want

2)There are going to be a lot of very good coaching candidates available in the next 30-45 days.

This.

But it better include Graves getting the boot.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Roethlisberger under Bruce Arians is 1,000,000,000 times the QB he ever was under Whisenhunt. He's even a better QB under Todd Haley, which for the life of me I can't understand why he wasn't brought back to AZ as OC.

i've got to believe it was one of two reasons: pride or money... from either side.

 

[football karma]

Roethlisberger under Bruce Arians is 1,000,000,000 times the QB he ever was under Whisenhunt. He's even a better QB under Todd Haley, which for the life of me I can't understand why he wasn't brought back to AZ as OC.

He is also much more experienced

Whis had him his first three years-- I would expect a QB in years 4-7 to be much better than the same one in years 1-3

 

[football karma]

Maybe he didn't kill all of their careers, but with the exception of Leinart, he did hand-pick each of them and--with the exception of St. Pierre--decided that they had the ability to win games (and often start) in the National Football League.

Embarrassing.

So -- fire Whis but keep Graves, and we simply have the next HC picking QBs that catch their eye --

Just like he did with Denny falling in love with Josh Mccown , Shawn king, etc.

The coach isn't the real problem.

 

[Stout]

So -- fire Whis but keep Graves, and we simply have the next HC picking QBs that catch their eye --

Just like he did with Denny falling in love with Josh Mccown , Shawn king, etc.

The coach isn't the real problem.

They're ALL the real problem.

 

[Duckjake]

Racine Cardinals, Chicago Cardinals, St.Louis Cardinals, Phoenix Cardinals, Arizona Cardinals. No matter what you call them they still find new and ridiculous ways to lose football games.

 

[daves]

Maybe he didn't kill all of their careers, but with the exception of Leinart, he did hand-pick each of them and--with the exception of St. Pierre--decided that they had the ability to win games (and often start) in the National Football League.

Embarrassing.

Inarguably, better QBs should have been brought in from somewhere. Since Warner retired, there have been zero, or some might still argue one (Kolb) viable starting QB on the team. But it's not as though Whis "hand-picked" Hall, Skelton, or Lindley to be near-term starters, or passed on starting-caliber QBs in free agency, the draft, or by trade (except for Alex Smith, but you were about the only one here who recognized his ability a couple years ago.)

No sense re-hashing all the circumstances that led to guys like Hall, Skelton, and Lindley starting games, but i'm sure Whis would rather have never seen them start a game.

When a Manning was available in free agency, the team went after him; we may never know whether they went hard enough, but i'll bet Whis was leading that charge. When Kolb and Orton (and perhaps Smith) were available, the team traded for Kolb.

When the Cardinals drafted, the QBs remaining on the board weren't considered near-term starters, so they waited until the late rounds and picked up developmental prospects. Maybe they should've tried to outbid Washington for RGIII (they probably been considered crazy at the time).

Ultimately, yes, Whis and Graves and the scouting staff and Bidwill are responsible for this mess at QB. And they should've seen this coming and done "something" about it, because that's their collective responsibility.

I only take exception to the idea that Whis "hand-picked" Hall, Skelton, or Lindley to be starters, or that he ruined anybody's career. There just hasn't been enough talent or depth at the position since Warner retired. And that sucks and even going into next season, with universal recognition of this fact, it won't be easy to fix.

...dave

 

[daves]

Roethlisberger under Bruce Arians is 1,000,000,000 times the QB he ever was under Whisenhunt..

Could that possibly have something to do with the fact that Roethlisberger's now in his 9th year, as opposed to starting as a rookie under Whisenhunt?

It's plainly asinine to assert that Whis killed R-berger's career, both because the Steelers went 13-0 with the rookie and won the Super Bowl with 2nd-year R-berger, and because R-berger has gone on to a consistently successful career.

Oh and as far as R-berger being 1 billion times better under Arians? His passer rating as a rookie was 98.1; in his second year, 98.6. In his third, after he had his motorcycle accident in the offseason, his rating was only 75.0. Whatever effect the smashed head had on him that year, his overall average in his first three seasons was just under 90.

His career average: 92.8. He won one Super Bowl in his first three years under Whis, and one in his next five years under Arians.

Whatever, just saying it's ridiculous to claim that "Whisenhut has been a QB career killer and shown he has no clue on developing any QB. BTW, Roethlisberger seconds that."

...dave

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Racine Cardinals, Chicago Cardinals, St.Louis Cardinals, Phoenix Cardinals, Arizona Cardinals. No matter what you call them they still find new and ridiculous ways to lose football games.

Sad, but so true. Ugh.