PFT: Cardinals housecleaning this off season?

[CtCardinals78]

Could that possibly have something to do with the fact that Roethlisberger's now in his 9th year, as opposed to starting as a rookie under Whisenhunt?

It's plainly asinine to assert that Whis killed R-berger's career, both because the Steelers went 13-0 with the rookie and won the Super Bowl with 2nd-year R-berger, and because R-berger has gone on to a consistently successful career.

Oh and as far as R-berger being 1 billion times better under Arians? His passer rating as a rookie was 98.1; in his second year, 98.6. In his third, after he had his motorcycle accident in the offseason, his rating was only 75.0. Whatever effect the smashed head had on him that year, his overall average in his first three seasons was just under 90.

His career average: 92.8. He won one Super Bowl in his first three years under Whis, and one in his next five years under Arians.

Whatever, just saying it's ridiculous to claim that "Whisenhut has been a QB career killer and shown he has no clue on developing any QB. BTW, Roethlisberger seconds that."

...dave

Could be, or it could be that once Arians took over Roethlisberger was given control of the position and went from throwing 15-20 times a game to 25+. I watch a lot of Steelers game because I have family that are fans and the difference was immediate.

It's kind of ironic that Roethlisberger, who is an elite QB and was always a great QB was held back so much initially, yet here in Arizona there's no problem with having a raw 6th round rookie throw 52 times in one game. Asinine.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Could be, or it could be that once Arians took over Roethlisberger was given control of the position and went from throwing 15-20 times a game to 25+. I watch a lot of Steelers game because I have family that are fans and the difference was immediate.

It's kind of ironic that Roethlisberger, who is an elite QB and was always a great QB was held back so much initially, yet here in Arizona there's no problem with having a raw 6th round rookie throw 52 times in one game. Asinine.

I think Cowher had a lot to do with how Whiz managed Roethlisberger in his first few years.

 

[imaCafan]

Weren't they a "smash mouth" team because that is what Cowher wanted them to be? Smash mouth=15-20 passes a game????

 

[kerouac9]

Inarguably, better QBs should have been brought in from somewhere. Since Warner retired, there have been zero, or some might still argue one (Kolb) viable starting QB on the team. But it's not as though Whis "hand-picked" Hall, Skelton, or Lindley to be near-term starters, or passed on starting-caliber QBs in free agency, the draft, or by trade (except for Alex Smith, but you were about the only one here who recognized his ability a couple years ago.)

No sense re-hashing all the circumstances that led to guys like Hall, Skelton, and Lindley starting games, but i'm sure Whis would rather have never seen them start a game.

When a Manning was available in free agency, the team went after him; we may never know whether they went hard enough, but i'll bet Whis was leading that charge. When Kolb and Orton (and perhaps Smith) were available, the team traded for Kolb.

When the Cardinals drafted, the QBs remaining on the board weren't considered near-term starters, so they waited until the late rounds and picked up developmental prospects. Maybe they should've tried to outbid Washington for RGIII (they probably been considered crazy at the time).

Ultimately, yes, Whis and Graves and the scouting staff and Bidwill are responsible for this mess at QB. And they should've seen this coming and done "something" about it, because that's their collective responsibility.

I only take exception to the idea that Whis "hand-picked" Hall, Skelton, or Lindley to be starters, or that he ruined anybody's career. There just hasn't been enough talent or depth at the position since Warner retired. And that sucks and even going into next season, with universal recognition of this fact, it won't be easy to fix.

...dave

Well, you're factually incorrect about that. Mike Jurecki reported this week that all the QBs since Leinart were hand-selected by Whisenhunt. Not one of the horrible quarterbacks that we've seen have been 'forced on' Whis.

There may not have been All-Pro QBs available in free agency the last few years, but there were certainly experienced veterans like Matt Hasselback, Jason Campbell, Chad Henne, David Garrard, Kyle Orton, etc. out there who would have been upgrades over Skelton and certainly Lindley.

If you go into the season with Derek Anderson and two rookies, you should have an understanding that at least one of those rookies are going to see PT, and perhaps start.

Max Hall was seeing regular-season reps in Week 2 and 4 of the 2010 regular season. He was starting in Week 5. Don't tell me that Whis never expected that rookie to have to play.

 

[CtCardinals78]

I think Cowher had a lot to do with how Whiz managed Roethlisberger in his first few years.

I don't necessarily disagree, but to not think the OC doesn't play a large part in developing and running an offense tailored to his QB is naive to say the least. I think Whisenhunt had more to do developing Roethlisberger than Cowher did.

Lets not dismiss that if Whisenhunt was so great for Roethlisberger how come the Steelers chose to go outside the organization than promote the two guys that helped them won a Super Bowl just one year earlier?

 

[b8rtm8nn]

Well, you're factually incorrect about that. Mike Jurecki reported this week that all the QBs since Leinart were hand-selected by Whisenhunt. Not one of the horrible quarterbacks that we've seen have been 'forced on' Whis.

There may not have been All-Pro QBs available in free agency the last few years, but there were certainly experienced veterans like Matt Hasselback, Jason Campbell, Chad Henne, David Garrard, Kyle Orton, etc. out there who would have been upgrades over Skelton and certainly Lindley.

If you go into the season with Derek Anderson and two rookies, you should have an understanding that at least one of those rookies are going to see PT, and perhaps start.

Max Hall was seeing regular-season reps in Week 2 and 4 of the 2010 regular season. He was starting in Week 5. Don't tell me that Whis never expected that rookie to have to play.

This experience and the lack of foresight to not have picked up any QB that is not a rookie to backup Skelton when Kolb went down is one of the key reasons we should have coaching changes on the offensive side of the ball. How can they not learn from the 2010 disaster?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I don't necessarily disagree, but to not think the OC doesn't play a large part in developing and running an offense tailored to his QB is naive to say the least. I think Whisenhunt had more to do developing Roethlisberger than Cowher did.

Lets not dismiss that if Whisenhunt was so great for Roethlisberger how come the Steelers chose to go outside the organization than promote the two guys that helped them won a Super Bowl just one year earlier?

It's also "naive" to believe that Cowher was not absolutely insistent on what type of "O" he wanted run. Yes, Whiz, had a role in Roethlisberger's development, and that didn't turn out too bad.

I don't know why Pitt went outside the family to find a new head coach, but, I don't doubt that Tomlin wowed them in the interview.

 

[daves]

Inarguably, better QBs should have been brought in from somewhere. Since Warner retired, there have been zero, or some might still argue one (Kolb) viable starting QB on the team. But it's not as though Whis "hand-picked" Hall, Skelton, or Lindley to be near-term starters, or passed on starting-caliber QBs in free agency, the draft, or by trade (except for Alex Smith, but you were about the only one here who recognized his ability a couple years ago.)

Well, you're factually incorrect about that. Mike Jurecki reported this week that all the QBs since Leinart were hand-selected by Whisenhunt. Not one of the horrible quarterbacks that we've seen have been 'forced on' Whis.

Not disputing that Whis selected them; i'm only disputing that Whis brought them in to be near-term starters. In the case of Hall, he was a UDFA brought in as the 4th QB! Whis very likely already was very skeptical of Leinart, and Scud was brought in that year as the "backup". It would've been politically impossible to bring in a significantly better QB than Scud, who had started a lot of games and even, somehow, made a Pro Bowl. Anyone better than that and Whis would've been lynched for "undermining Leinart's confidence" and "not giving him a chance". It then made sense to draft Skelton as a developmental project, and Hall was probably expected to be little more than camp fodder.

Who knew that Leinart would ask to be released rather than accept a demotion to 2nd string? Then who could've predicted just how utterly awful Scud would be? Then Skelton, out of Fordham, simply wasn't ready to play in the NFL in game 4. So in comes Moxie Hall (and darned if he didn't "win" his second start!). But that doesn't mean Whis "hand-picked" him thinking he'd be a starter in his rookie season - or ever!

There may not have been All-Pro QBs available in free agency the last few years, but there were certainly experienced veterans like Matt Hasselback, Jason Campbell, Chad Henne, David Garrard, Kyle Orton, etc. out there who would have been upgrades over Skelton and certainly Lindley.

Backing up to 2011, they DID make the move for Kolb, and even though he's been a huge, somewhat predictable disappointment, there weren't many obviously better alternatives out there (aside from Alex Smith, in hindsight). It's not as though Whis stood pat with Scud, Skelton, and Hall.

Then this year they DID try for Manning. It's not as if Whis was happy with Kolb, Skelton, and Bartel. Failing that, YES, they should've brought in Campbell or the like. But given the investment in Kolb (even though he had already proven to be a bottom-tier starter at best and too injury-prone to boot), and the fact that Skelton proved to be relatively durable and capable of winning games, they drafted another developmental prospect in Lindley. At the time it seemed reasonable, since it wasn't clear those guys would've been upgrades over the expected backup, Skelton, nor would they have been too keen to come in to compete for a job with the other two. Anyway, point is, once again, Whis didn't "hand-pick" Lindley expecting him to start this year. Who could've predicted how badly Skelton would regress?

If you go into the season with Derek Anderson and two rookies, you should have an understanding that at least one of those rookies are going to see PT, and perhaps start.

Fair enough. But at the time Whis "hand-picked" Skelton and Hall, they were expected to be behind some combination of Leinart and Anderson, not to be seeing playing time in 2010.

Max Hall was seeing regular-season reps in Week 2 and 4 of the 2010 regular season. He was starting in Week 5. Don't tell me that Whis never expected that rookie to have to play.

That's exactly what i'm telling you. Where were YOU in 2010 screaming, "What is Whis thinking, picking up Max Hall to start games for the Cardinals this year?!" After Leinart was cut? Sure, should've picked up a veteran for depth then. It's all 20/20 hindsight now though.

Not trying to spin it too hard to Whis' favor, but every time i read how Whis 'hand-picked" Hall, Skelton, and Lindley to be starters, it strikes me as not only spinning things against him, but downright disingenuous.

...dave

 

[daves]

Could be, or it could be that once Arians took over Roethlisberger was given control of the position and went from throwing 15-20 times a game to 25+. I watch a lot of Steelers game because I have family that are fans and the difference was immediate.

Not exactly.

Surprisingly (to me at least), R-berger went from throwing about 22 passes per game in each of his first two seasons, to around 31 per game in his third season (still under Whis). I don't recall enough about the Steelers' situation back then, after they won the Super Bowl, to posit a reason for the change.

In the first year under Arians, the number dropped to about 27, then 29, then 34, 32, 34.

So far under Haley it's closer to 35!

...dave

 

[kerouac9]

That's exactly what i'm telling you. Where were YOU in 2010 screaming, "What is Whis thinking, picking up Max Hall to start games for the Cardinals this year?!" After Leinart was cut? Sure, should've picked up a veteran for depth then. It's all 20/20 hindsight now though.

Not trying to spin it too hard to Whis' favor, but every time i read how Whis 'hand-picked" Hall, Skelton, and Lindley to be starters, it strikes me as not only spinning things against him, but downright disingenuous.

...dave

I was right here, doing exactly that. I was one of the view minority voices reminding people that no one in the NFL wanted a piece of Max Hall in training camp, calling Peter King's preseason love letter to Hall hokum, and counting the amount of passes that Max Hall had thrown without finding the end zone (I think it was more than 120).

No one forced Whis to start Max Hall against the Saints and Seahawks. No one certainly forced Whis to cut Matt Leinart (and it's revisionist history to say that Leinart asked for his release). No one forced (or even asked) Ken Whisenhunt to sign Kevin Kolb, or bench John Skelton, or start Ryan Lindley, or not sign a veteran free agent quarterback when Kolb (predictably) got injured.

It's not hindsight to say that Whis has no idea what to do with the quarterback position when you've been saying it since he didn't name John Skelton in the starting quarterback after the only other health option was a just-signed Richard Bartell.

 

[Mulli]

I was right here, doing exactly that. I was one of the view minority voices reminding people that no one in the NFL wanted a piece of Max Hall in training camp, calling Peter King's preseason love letter to Hall hokum, and counting the amount of passes that Max Hall had thrown without finding the end zone (I think it was more than 120).

No one forced Whis to start Max Hall against the Saints and Seahawks. No one certainly forced Whis to cut Matt Leinart (and it's revisionist history to say that Leinart asked for his release). No one forced (or even asked) Ken Whisenhunt to sign Kevin Kolb, or bench John Skelton, or start Ryan Lindley, or not sign a veteran free agent quarterback when Kolb (predictably) got injured.

It's not hindsight to say that Whis has no idea what to do with the quarterback position when you've been saying it since he didn't name John Skelton in the starting quarterback after the only other health option was a just-signed Richard Bartell.

Ya, Leenart was perfectly happy to steal paychecks and lose his job horrible scrubs. He just wanted the right to whine to the media once in a while.

 

[conraddobler]

Ya, Leenart was perfectly happy to steal paychecks and lose his job horrible scrubs. He just wanted the right to whine to the media once in a while.

He lost his job technically to a HOF QB and then was cut in favor of Max Hall, John Skelton and DA.

I guess technically he was beaten out by them, however the person in charge of that decision wasn't exactly non biased IMO.

You could I guess chose to bench someone and claim they got beat out even if they were actually not beaten out but you just despise them, so technically I guess you can say that but it's missing some of the reality of the situation cause I don't think DA could truly beat out anyone.

 

[kerouac9]

He lost his job technically to a HOF QB and then was cut in favor of Max Hall, John Skelton and DA.

I guess technically he was beaten out by them, however the person in charge of that decision wasn't exactly non biased IMO.

You could I guess chose to bench someone and claim they got beat out even if they were actually not beaten out but you just despise them, so technically I guess you can say that but it's missing some of the reality of the situation cause I don't think DA could truly beat out anyone.

I think that DA could beat out Max Hall, John Skelton, and maybe Kevin Kolb. Definitely Ryan Lindley. The problem is that these failures have been so embarrassing and irredeemable that the coaching staff/front office has to banish them down the memory hole (when was the last time that Darren Urban mentioned Max Hall or Derek Anderson?) lest anyone remember how that the current guy might be worse than the one who preceeded him.

I also think that DA could beat out Brady Quinn and maybe Blaine Gabbert.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Leinart dug his own grave here, I have no problem with Whiz dumping a QB who had a continuous habvit of no showing for meetings and hosting girls post-curfew the night before games.

Problem is the vets we signed were DA (not 100% on Whiz, he wanted Bulger and the Cardinals went cheap) and Kolb (unmitigated disaster on all fronts) and the rookies were Hall, Skelton, and Lindley. I think he should get one more chance this offseason to get a QB at which point we theoretically should make the playoffs considering we'll have an easy last place schedule. But this is his last shot.

 

[kerouac9]

Leinart dug his own grave here, I have no problem with Whiz dumping a QB who had a continuous habvit of no showing for meetings and hosting girls post-curfew the night before games.

Problem is the vets we signed were DA (not 100% on Whiz, he wanted Bulger and the Cardinals went cheap) and Kolb (unmitigated disaster on all fronts) and the rookies were Hall, Skelton, and Lindley. I think he should get one more chance this offseason to get a QB at which point we theoretically should make the playoffs considering we'll have an easy last place schedule. But this is his last shot.

This is the first I've heard of these claims. If that were the case, why would he even be active as the #2 on game days? Where is this coming from?

As for the rest, post-realignment, the "last place schedule" only affects 2 games. We'll play the NFC South (scary) and AFC South (less scary), plus the 4th-place teams in the NFC East and NFC North.

So... Looks like we'll get to host the Vikings again next year, and go visit Philly.

Fun.(?)

Don't give up those season tickets--we'll have Cam Newton, Andrew Luck, the Houston Texans, and the Greatest Show on Turf Atlanta Falcons coming to town. So at least we'll be treated to some quality football from our opponents.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

We also have to accept the reality that drafting a bust QB top 10 almost always screws your franchise for 5-7 years. We were fortunate that Kurt found the fountain of youth initially after our mistake, but also realize that we are back in that funk.

 

[Duckjake]

Leinart dug his own grave here, I have no problem with Whiz dumping a QB who had a continuous habvit of no showing for meetings and hosting girls post-curfew the night before games.

Problem is the vets we signed were DA (not 100% on Whiz, he wanted Bulger and the Cardinals went cheap) and Kolb (unmitigated disaster on all fronts) and the rookies were Hall, Skelton, and Lindley. I think he should get one more chance this offseason to get a QB at which point we theoretically should make the playoffs considering we'll have an easy last place schedule. But this is his last shot.

Is Whisenhunt wanting Bulger and not Kolb an urban myth or is it that CKW wanted Kolb and Bulger and was told the Cards couldn't afford both?

QB hasn't been the only position where the Cards have had a falling out with a player and replaced him with successively worse players. I know the homers will claim Deuce Lutui ate himself out of a job but so what that doesn't change the fact that Rex Hadnot and Adam Snyder are the Max Hall and John Skelton of the offensive line.

Nobody really knows what happened with Leinart or Lutui but to replace a top 10 draft pick and a 5 year starter with garbage is what gets you 3 seasons with 6 game losing streaks.

Oh I almost forgot. I thought the Cards weren't cheap anymore. Funny how some of the same people who defend the front office as not being cheap are the same people (not you) who defend CKW by claiming the Cards were too cheap to sign Bulger.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

This is the first I've heard of these claims. If that were the case, why would he even be active as the #2 on game days? Where is this coming from?

I know from some people close to the Bidwill family, but it was also talked about by Jurecki and co. I know one of the incidents with Leinart and some groupies was Super Bowl week in Tampa. Leinart also blew off a dinner meeting with Whisenhunt in Miami the week of Super Bowl XLI shortly after his hiring that caused some friction. He was active because our #3 was BSP or Preston Parsons and we were investing millions of dollars in the guy.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Is Whisenhunt wanting Bulger and not Kolb an urban myth or is it that CKW wanted Kolb and Bulger and was told the Cards couldn't afford both?

Different years, Bulger was Derek Anderson year. Whiz wanted Bulger in case Leinart decided to keep up his frat boy lifestyle another offseason. He got DA because the FO felt we already had enough invested in the position with Leinart.

Leinart no showing a team meeting was the last straw causing his benching, which in turn led Matty to blast the team publicly. At that point the entire locker room (coaching staff and players included) hated him so much that we had to cut him.

 

[kerouac9]

Is Whisenhunt wanting Bulger and not Kolb an urban myth or is it that CKW wanted Kolb and Bulger and was told the Cards couldn't afford both?

Don't know about Bulger and Kolb (I think that Bulger had retired at that point), but I know that Whis turned his affections to Bulger following minicamps, but by that point the Cards had already signed Anderson (also approved if not handpicked by Whis), and there wasn't an appetite to give guaranteed money to another veteran to compete for the backup job.

 

[Duckjake]

Different years, Bulger was Derek Anderson year. Whiz wanted Bulger in case Leinart decided to keep up his frat boy lifestyle another offseason. He got DA because the FO felt we already had enough invested in the position with Leinart.

Leinart no showing a team meeting was the last straw causing his benching, which in turn led Matty to blast the team publicly. At that point the entire locker room (coaching staff and players included) hated him so much that we had to cut him.

Gotcha. But signing Bulger would have been even a worse mistake. He got his mega contract in 2007 and promptly retired in place.

 

[daves]

Not disputing that Whis selected them; i'm only disputing that Whis brought them in to be near-term starters.

[....]

Fair enough. But at the time Whis "hand-picked" Skelton and Hall, they were expected to be behind some combination of Leinart and Anderson, not to be seeing playing time in 2010.

[....]

Where were YOU in 2010 screaming, "What is Whis thinking, picking up Max Hall to start games for the Cardinals this year?!" After Leinart was cut? Sure, should've picked up a veteran for depth then. It's all 20/20 hindsight now though.

Not trying to spin it too hard to Whis' favor, but every time i read how Whis 'hand-picked" Hall, Skelton, and Lindley to be starters, it strikes me as not only spinning things against him, but downright disingenuous.

I was right here, doing exactly that.

Maybe AFTER Leinart was cut, but my narrow point is that Whis did not "hand pick" UDFA Hall as an expected starter in 2010.

Stuff got crazy after Leinart was cut, Scud sucked beyond belief, and Skelton wasn't ready to run an NFL offense.

I was one of the view minority voices reminding people that no one in the NFL wanted a piece of Max Hall in training camp, calling Peter King's preseason love letter to Hall hokum, and counting the amount of passes that Max Hall had thrown without finding the end zone (I think it was more than 120).

No one forced Whis to start Max Hall against the Saints and Seahawks.

NO disagreement that Whis should've seen in training camp that Hall was NOT a legitimate starter. I was, unfortunately, at the Chargers game when Scud was pulled for Hall after throwing a pick-6 to put the Cardinals in a 21-point hole in the 2nd quarter. The whole situation was a bit reminiscent of the current situation with Skelton being pulled for Lindley. Lindley's wasn't picked in the 6th round to be a starter this year either, but when everyone ahead of a guy on the depth chart is hurt / cut / isn't doing what it takes to win - and the team hasn't brought in a vet, as they should have, the responsibility for which resides partly with Whis - sometimes there's not much else to do but throw a young guy to the wolves and see what he's got. Anderson HAD to ride the pine for a while, the way he was playing.

No one certainly forced Whis to cut Matt Leinart (and it's revisionist history to say that Leinart asked for his release).

Hm, i thought i remembered reading that back in the day but what's not in question is that Leinart has since admitted that he wasn't working hard enough with the Cardinals and he cried to the media about his demotion in the 4th preseason game, before it was even final for the regular season.

Hard to keep a guy like that around to poison the locker room with two rookies behind him. But unquestionably the team should've brought in a veteran to back up Scud once the decision was made to cut Leinart loose.

Ironic contemporary quote by Whis:

That's always a dicey thing when you're talking about a rookie in a backup role," Whisenhunt said. "But I've been very impressed with how both of those young men have handled themselves.

It's not hindsight to say that Whis has no idea what to do with the quarterback position when you've been saying it since he didn't name John Skelton in the starting quarterback after the only other health option was a just-signed Richard Bartell.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with that position here.

...dave