PFT Report: GIANTS CHOP THREE

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Petitgout only had 2 fewer false starts two seasons ago than Big did. This season, he only appeared in 9 games. In those 9 games, he allowed 4.5 sacks.

First Mike Gandy (12.5 sacks last season) and now Petitgout is the answer? Are you guys serious? Do y'all even watch the NFL?

Its the old -- if they are on another team, they must be better than we have here

Unfortunately, it just seems like Big is going to be allowed to walk --there must be more there than meets the eye,

Pettigout becomes a servicable replacement and insurance in the event that the rookie the Cards will be forced to draft in rounds 1 or 2 isnt ready
 

kerouac9

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Man, I bet Rod Graves can't wait to exchange his dollar for two shiny quarters! :bang:

Don't do it, Mr. Graves. It's a bad idea.
 

TheCardFan

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Petitgout only had 2 fewer false starts two seasons ago than Big did. This season, he only appeared in 9 games. In those 9 games, he allowed 4.5 sacks.

First Mike Gandy (12.5 sacks last season) and now Petitgout is the answer? Are you guys serious? Do y'all even watch the NFL?

Exactly! What is the deal?

Losing LD would be a disaster...
 

TheCardFan

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You know what, K9, you are about as arrogant a poster as they get.

Stats don't tell the whole story. Go watch some tape of Mike Gandy. He's got significant talent, particularly as a run blocker...and he's some good coaching away from being a good pass protector too...do you ever believe a player can improve? How about with a guy like Russ Grimm coaching him?

In a perfect world the Cardinals could do nothing but sign All-Pros...but guess what? They have a salary cap...and with the $11M they will need to sign Leonard "False Start-Drive Killer-I'm playing T but I am really a G" Davis...and the reality is that the Cardinals could sign a good talent in Gandy AND sign two or three more good starters at key need positions (CB, WLB, FS, T, G, PR) with that $11M...which is why we are even talking about Gandy in the first place (and by virtue of a less than elite class of UFA Ts out there).

Your agruments are not making sense! K9 is stating the obvious...LD is the best olineman we have and why would you get rid of your best olineman on a bad oline team?

LD is way better than Gandy or Luke and if Grimm can coach them up, then he can do the same with LD.

I can't believe we are even arguing the topic of letting LD leave...
 
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BACH

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I'm inclined to agree with K9er in the case of not being ga ga over Petitgout. I've only had a hand full of times to see him play and I remember in one instance things did not go well at all.

Well, I respect your opinion (and K9's), but please tell me that how moving Petitgout from the blindside to the frontside and from a power scheme to a zone scheme does not alter the basis to evaluating his play with the Giants.
 

TheCardFan

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Stats don't tell the whole story. Go watch some tape of Mike Gandy. He's got significant talent, particularly as a run blocker...and he's some good coaching away from being a good pass protector too...do you ever believe a player can improve? How about with a guy like Russ Grimm coaching him?

I find it funny how you are down on LD but two guys you are pimping are Gandy and Black...12.5 and 13.0 sacks respectively from last year!
 

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Well, I respect your opinion (and K9's), but please tell me that how moving Petitgout from the blindside to the frontside and from a power scheme to a zone scheme does not alter the basis to evaluating his play with the Giants.

How can you evaluate his play at all if you're changing everything for him.

And you're continuing to sound ridiculous with the frontside/blindside nonsense. He's still going to be seeing the opposition's best pass rusher 90% of the time, regardless of what hand Matt Leinart throws with. If Petitgout can't block that man--and history has shown that he can't--it won't matter whether Leinart ends up on his back or on his stomach.
 

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Your agruments are not making sense! K9 is stating the obvious...LD is the best olineman we have and why would you get rid of your best olineman on a bad oline team?

LD is way better than Gandy or Luke and if Grimm can coach them up, then he can do the same with LD.

I can't believe we are even arguing the topic of letting LD leave...

Both Reggie Wells and Deuce Lutui outplayed Big last year. Petitgout would be a cheaper and better upgrade to LD.
 

kerouac9

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The coaches and players who vote for the pro bowl would disagree with you that Petitgout is an upgrade to Leonard Davis, ODMG.

Reggie Wells sucked at guard for half the season before he was moved to tackle and nearly got Kurt Warner killed against the Chargers. Lutui was all right when he finally entered the starting lineup, but it's impossible to say why, since the players on both sides of him were replaced.

For anyone who actually watched the games without hate in their heart could tell that Leonard Davis was the best and most dependable member of the offensive line all season long, regardless of where he was drafted.
 
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BACH

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How can you evaluate his play at all if you're changing everything for him.

And you're continuing to sound ridiculous with the frontside/blindside nonsense. He's still going to be seeing the opposition's best pass rusher 90% of the time, regardless of what hand Matt Leinart throws with. If Petitgout can't block that man--and history has shown that he can't--it won't matter whether Leinart ends up on his back or on his stomach.

And with comments like that you keep proving that you know nothing about lineplay...

But I'll explain it yet again. SpecialEd - just for you....

1. When being pressured from the front, the QB can see when he has to step up in the pocket.

2. The frontside OT has a much better chance to protect the QB because the DE is limited in his moves. The DE has a hard time beating the frontside OT on pure speed on the outside because he has to run through a TE on the way. Running through or around a man will slow the DE down.

Did you watch any games at all, K9???? Didn't you notice how Big settled when playing the front compared to his nervous play as the blindside? You were one of the biggest Big bashers before that. So what happened? Did Big suddenly improve out of nowhere proving you wrong? Or did it in fact have an impact that he wasn't protecting the blindside anymore?

Also.. You only answered one of my questions. Please explain why Petitgout's production wouldn't be affected by changing to a new scheme.
 

kerouac9

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I'm not saying that Petitgout's production wouldn't be effective in a new scheme, but it's folly to assume that his production would be improved based on a new scheme, better coaching. Isn't it more likely to think that now that he's in his 8th year, he's in decline and unable to stay healthy, and that he's outlived his usefulness to his old team? Why would he be a better option than the Pro Bowl alternate Left Tackle the Cards have?

Why is the DE limited in his moves against an LT than he would be against the DT? Where the TE plays has no bearing on anything, especially not what the quarterback's dominant hand is. Teams flip the TE to the left side all the time. Look how often Desmond Clark was positioned on the QB's blind side in the Super Bowl. Why? Because that's where the dominant pass rusher was in Dwight Freeney.

Follow this clip from where the Cards played the Packers. Look at where the TE is sitting? It's on the QB's blind side. Brett Favre is still right-handed, isn't he?

You can keep repeating that rubbish like it's true, but the fact of the matter is that the Left Tackle needs to be the best pass blocker not because it's the quarterback's blind side, but because that's where the best pass rusher comes from.
 

OldDirtMcGirt

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The coaches and players who vote for the pro bowl would disagree with you that Petitgout is an upgrade to Leonard Davis, ODMG.

Reggie Wells sucked at guard for half the season before he was moved to tackle and nearly got Kurt Warner killed against the Chargers. Lutui was all right when he finally entered the starting lineup, but it's impossible to say why, since the players on both sides of him were replaced.

For anyone who actually watched the games without hate in their heart could tell that Leonard Davis was the best and most dependable member of the offensive line all season long, regardless of where he was drafted.

Pro Bowl voting is incredibly foolish and isn't a measure of talent. True Wells sucked at LG, but as soon as he moved to RT he was much better. And funny you should mention Kurt Warner getting killed, because I remember Leonard Davis completely whiffing on a block and injuring our franchise quarterback. And I don't have "hate in my heart" for LD, I just think that he isn't worth the 10 million franchise tag, and wish him luck some place else.

Also, I believe that one of the reasons Petitgout was released is because he was in conflict with Tom Coughlin.
 

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Another man's trash is the Cardinals' treasure? It must be the NFL offseason once again!

Ah, the time of year when any mediocre team's castoffs can, with a change of scenery and some "coaching up", become an All-pro or a solid contributor, regardless of the reasons why he was cut by his former team. I swear, some of the fans on this board just lap it up.

The Giants are $9.4 million under the cap right now, according to John Clayton. They're not cutting him for cap room. You don't cut servicable left tackles. The Ravens are cutting Jamal Lewis because (1) they are up against the cap and (2) because Lewis isn't worth the $5 million roster bonus in his contract.

But maybe you guys are right. Maybe all Petitgout needs to become a quality starter is a change of scenery and to get "coached up" by a quality staff. All I ask is you provide on instance where that happened at the left tackle position in--say--the last five years. I mean, things happen all the time that have never happened before, but it's not really a good idea for the team to depend on it, right?

Right?

Maybe I'm just being negative, though. I'm probably not as adept at reading the body languages of players as other posters here.

Explain to me then why Jeremy Bridges, who gets cut by the Cards---a team desperate for o-line help, gets signed by Carolina, winds up starting for them at RT and plays well.

The coaches decide who plays and they are the ones who prep the players to perform to the best of their abilities. I would say in Bridges' case he got the coaching and the vote of confidence he needed to go in and perform at a respectable level.

Luke Pettigout has struggled off an on through injuries, false starts and media scrutiny for the last two to three years. He will have to sign somewhere for a cut above the minimum and prove that his back is healthy and he can put his false start woes behind him. While it may appear that Pettigout's best days as a pro are behind him, it wouldn't be very risky for any team to bring him to camp to see what he can do.

As for Mike Gandy, I saw a game this past year (Bills versus Pats) where he was opening big holes against a good defense...and he did give up a sack that game, but the Bills' QB (Losman) didn't step up into the pocket the way he should have (which can be a problem with smaller QBs). Gandy blocked better in that game than Leonard Davis did in any of the Cardinal games last year.

Davis...when you watch him closely...whiffs on a lot of run blocks at LT...yes, I think that Russ Grimm could whip Davis into a Pro Bolwer, particularly if he plays at guard (but, Davis is funny when it comes to motivation...even Grimm may not have that much of an effect on him).

The bottom line is...is Davis worth 1/10 of the Cardinals salary cap? Because he's inconsistent...hasn't shown leadership or exemplary work habits...the answer is no.

As for compensation...all the Cards need is the $10M they will save in not re-signing Davis to use in acquiring 3-4 free agents in addition ot the free agents they would sign even if they do sign Davis.

Davis isn't high on free agent lists (19th on SI/CNN, for example)...isn't that interesting...if the Cardinals think someone is going to give them draft picks if they franchise Davis, they are in fantasy land.

Now..if it were up to me...I would like to see the Cards give up their 2nd or 3rd round draft pick to acquire Max Starks, who becomes Leinart's blindside tackle at RT...drafting Joe Thomas at #5, if available, would be attractive in this scenario, although I still think Reggie Wells can be a solid LT...I like the way he played at RT.

I am not convinced that the Cardinals are set at G either. Milford Brown and Deuce Lutui played pretty well down the stretch, but both were inconsistent at times, Brown struggles in pass protection more than what makes me comfortable and Lutui has weight issues.

Plus...this line still doesn't have a true veteran leader...which is why adding Eric Steinbach would be huge.
 

kerouac9

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Pro Bowl voting is incredibly foolish and isn't a measure of talent. True Wells sucked at LG, but as soon as he moved to RT he was much better. And funny you should mention Kurt Warner getting killed, because I remember Leonard Davis completely whiffing on a block and injuring our franchise quarterback. And I don't have "hate in my heart" for LD, I just think that he isn't worth the 10 million franchise tag, and wish him luck some place else.

Then you remember wrong, because Davis was clearly supposed to cut-block his man in order to get his hands down so that Leinart could throw the quick-hitch to Fitz on the outside. Matt didn't like the way that was developing (probably because we'd already run that play 6 times that game) so he checked into something else. Davis made the block that he was asked to; you can't ask him to do more than what he did.

On the other hand, Reggie Wells whiffed on his guy so completely that he ended up so out of the play that it seemed like he wasn't even there and that Deuce Lutui might have been the guy assigned to block him. That was embarassing.
 

Heucrazy

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Then you remember wrong, because Davis was clearly supposed to cut-block his man in order to get his hands down so that Leinart could throw the quick-hitch to Fitz on the outside. Matt didn't like the way that was developing (probably because we'd already run that play 6 times that game) so he checked into something else. Davis made the block that he was asked to; you can't ask him to do more than what he did.

On the other hand, Reggie Wells whiffed on his guy so completely that he ended up so out of the play that it seemed like he wasn't even there and that Deuce Lutui might have been the guy assigned to block him. That was embarassing.

The thing about this arguement is that LD didn't make that block. He wiffed and his guy barely slowed down on his way to injurying Leinart.
 

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The problem is we need to upgrade the OL. LD is not an All-Pro and he doesn't suck, he is average. However, you cannot pay an average player $11M a year. If left tackle was the only position to upgrade you might do it, but we have several positions that need to be upgraded. If he is willing to sign a reasonable contract we should keep him. If not, he can play someplace else. I would like to see both tackles and center replaced on the OL.
 

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I find it funny how you are down on LD but two guys you are pimping are Gandy and Black...12.5 and 13.0 sacks respectively from last year!

I like Gandy...maybe I just happened to watch his best game last year...but he was better than Davis in the game I saw. But what I really like about Gandy is that the Cards could sign him for less than 1/3 of the salary that Davis would make, leaving the Cards with $7M more to spend on other free agents.

Jordan Black is young and improving. He played well against us...he did a noce job versus Chike in that game. His price tag is probably a million less per year at this point than Gandy's.

The context is the value of the player versus his salary.
 

kerouac9

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Mitch, I don't mind bringing Petitgout in as a cheap competition for a backup LT spot. I am solidly against bringing him in as the starting left tackle for the Arizona Cardinals and letting that be the reason that Leonard Davis walks.

Jeremy Bridges? He came in as an injury sub for a team that suddenly couldn't run the ball, pass the ball, or score in the red zone anymore. Sound familiar? Good for him for finding a way to support his family, but don't make any mistake that the Panthers think they're set at RT now that they have Bridges on the roster.

I guess Mike Gandy was comporting himself so well in that one game you watched--maybe that one play that you saw--that the Bills benched him for no reason. That makes sense.

As does hoping that Joe Thomas falls to #5 in the draft. Or that Reggie Wells suddenly becomes very good at what is the most physically and mentally demanding position in the NFL.

Hope isn't a plan, Mitch. Didn't you figure that out after jocking Raynoch Thompson every offseason? The Cards can't spend all the money that they do have going into free agency. Whatever money they "save" by starting over at left tackle isn't going to go anywhere but to extend the crappy players have have lead us to our 5-11 record again.

Is Davis worth 1/10 of the Arizona Cardinals' salary cap? Absolutely. Because Rod Graves and company have no plan to replace him with anything but hope, and hope isn't a plan, and hope doesn't protect the left edge of the offensive line.
 

kerouac9

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The thing about this arguement is that LD didn't make that block. He wiffed and his guy barely slowed down on his way to injurying Leinart.

No, he got the guy's hands down. That was his job. Matt should have thrown the pass.
 

OldDirtMcGirt

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Then you remember wrong, because Davis was clearly supposed to cut-block his man in order to get his hands down so that Leinart could throw the quick-hitch to Fitz on the outside. Matt didn't like the way that was developing (probably because we'd already run that play 6 times that game) so he checked into something else. Davis made the block that he was asked to; you can't ask him to do more than what he did.

On the other hand, Reggie Wells whiffed on his guy so completely that he ended up so out of the play that it seemed like he wasn't even there and that Deuce Lutui might have been the guy assigned to block him. That was embarassing.

Davis was supposed to cut "block", not cut "fall in to the ground because I don't have enough lateral movement to get to my guy". If he actually got his mine then Leinart would've been fine.

As for Reggie Wells, when you're brand new at the position and playing against the best blitzing D in the league known for it's confusing schemes it's bound to happen. He made up for it by playing lights out and fighting through that flu.
 

TheCardFan

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As for Reggie Wells, when you're brand new at the position and playing against the best blitzing D in the league known for it's confusing schemes it's bound to happen. He made up for it by playing lights out and fighting through that flu.

Why does this board consistantly make excuses for inferior talent (Wells, McCown, Pittman, et al) and want to run quality players out of town?
 

Crazy Canuck

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Davis was supposed to cut "block", not cut "fall in to the ground because I don't have enough lateral movement to get to my guy". If he actually got his mine then Leinart would've been fine.

As for Reggie Wells, when you're brand new at the position and playing against the best blitzing D in the league known for it's confusing schemes it's bound to happen. He made up for it by playing lights out and fighting through that flu.

The play was supposed to be a 3 or 5 step drop and quick release. Perhaps no one was open, but fact remains, Leinart held onto the ball too long. And, by the way, Big's lateral movement was good enough to stop Shawn Merriman... His one sack that day was against Wells... how could that be? [/B]
 
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