Pick Watch 2018

[Hoop Head]

I still think we can blow this draft so before Booker heats up again the suns should put the brakes on. His finger sprain is a legit issue anyways. I dare Silver to say a thing about it.

Let him play if he wants to while his finger is hurt. It will take longer to heal if he continues playing, he won't be as effective since it's his shooting hand, and you know he won't let Triano sit him as a healthy scratch. So if they sit him until he's healed he'll return at 100% after missing a game or two and be back to his typical All-Star level.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Gotta take issue with that first sentence. You and many others here consistently excoriated fans who had the foresight to realize a tank was Necessary because of how talentless this team was.

I believe it was @Mainstreet who accused the tankers of “abhorrent behavior”(that one stuck for some reason)... others told the tankers to get a new team... most continually accused them of wanting to tank every year no matter, repeatedly misconstruing their arguments because it was easier to make them the whipping boys rather than the team they loved which was constantly embarrassing.

Pretending otherwise at this point is pretty disengenuous, IMO.

I don't think it is this simple...
Booker (with Giannis if they don't get in) is easily the brightest star (probably without qualification, but at least of the players still playing) on all of the non-playoff teams. He has only been hurt a few games. He plays to win and does not want to lose. If this were Philly and he was out all season (like they seemed to have - they didn't ask their future stars to play on a crap team), then I am on board with tanking all season by jettisoning every vet. JJ is coming along and TJ is a good to great scorer on many nights. The Suns are not devoid of talent! They are devoid of direction and instruction. Isn't anyone concerned that we are losing more than just games here? If all else stays the same but we were to draft Ayton, he becomes much less than he could be and we are right back here in this conversation...

 

[Hoop Head]

Gotta take issue with that first sentence. You and many others here consistently excoriated fans who had the foresight to realize a tank was Necessary because of how talentless this team was.

I believe it was @Mainstreet who accused the tankers of “abhorrent behavior”(that one stuck for some reason)... others told the tankers to get a new team... most continually accused them of wanting to tank every year no matter, repeatedly misconstruing their arguments because it was easier to make them the whipping boys rather than the team they loved which was constantly embarrassing.

Pretending otherwise at this point is pretty disengenuous, IMO.

I still wouldn't say I scolded anyone. Sure, I disagreed with some people who called for the team to pull out all the stops in the first and second months of the season to start tanking because at that point the team should be focusing on player development more than draft positioning, I stand by that. How many games have Chandler and Dudley won for the Suns because they weren't traded in November or December? It's impossible to say, looking at their stats and the fact the team has won all of 19 games I don't think they've helped win very many, if any at all. It's impossible to prove either way.

I know I didn't tell anyone to find a new team to follow. The Suns needs all the fans they can get. I may have said something about it getting old seeing people root for the team to tank in November and I still feel that way. When people are mad their favorite team won a game within the first 2 months of the season because it'll screw up the draft that doesn't make sense to me. I find it ridiculous to root for losses that early in the season, especially when the team was racking up losses on their own. They've been at the bottom of the standings all year and that hasn't changed. They suck, they don't need to tank to lose. If people want to root for the team to tank in December, that's their choose, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them. If they post about it on a message board there will be people that disagree with that. I disagreed with those posters then but that doesn't mean I scalded them. I'd like to think I've been respectful with everyone here. If I haven't been, that's between me and them though, possibly the mods if I crossed a line. I don't believe I've told anyone how to be a fan, if I have then I would apologize for that.

I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to you though since it was pokerface that asked if I was one of the people who "scalded" him earlier this season, in regards to tanking. Since you want to level accusations at me though I feel the need to defend myself. It seems you would rather stir the pot then add anything of value though. If you want to do that, I got an issue with something you said to me previously. You called me a liar and accused me of making things up in a recent game thread and I responded it to then with proof that I wasn't making anything up but you decided to move on to complain about something else. I didn't make anything up then, and I'm not doing it now. You never bothered rescinding that accusation though. If you want to talk about that, I'm happy to. Otherwise if @pokerface has a problem with something he thinks I said to him, I'll talk to him about that.

Here's that game thread, give it a look...

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/trail-blazers-suns-game-thread-2-24-18.259508/

 

[Mainstreet]

Gotta take issue with that first sentence. You and many others here consistently excoriated fans who had the foresight to realize a tank was Necessary because of how talentless this team was.

I believe it was @Mainstreet who accused the tankers of “abhorrent behavior”(that one stuck for some reason)... others told the tankers to get a new team... most continually accused them of wanting to tank every year no matter, repeatedly misconstruing their arguments because it was easier to make them the whipping boys rather than the team they loved which was constantly embarrassing.

Pretending otherwise at this point is pretty disengenuous, IMO.

You might want to respond to a particular post Cheese. I've never been a fan of tanking... playing young players... yes. The use of the term “abhorrent behavior” sounds unfamiliar to me.

There was a comment by a poster that tanking should occur beyond this season. However, I see no need to go there.

I get it if you wanted the Suns to tank from day 1 because that was the position of a couple of posters. It's a position I could never embrace.

Once Bledsoe left, I wanted the Suns to play their younger players and see what happens. And this is where the Suns are today. The results are very similar to tanking but without the intent.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You might want to respond to a particular post Cheese. I've never been a fan of tanking... playing young players... yes. The use of the term “abhorrent behavior” sounds unfamiliar to me.

There was a comment by a poster that tanking should occur beyond this season. However, I see no need to go there.

I get it if you wanted the Suns to tank from day 1 because that was the position of a couple of posters. It's a position I could never embrace.

Once Bledsoe left, I wanted the Suns to play their younger players and see what happens. And this is where the Suns are today. The results are very similar to tanking but without the intent.

maybe it wasn't you... but it's a phrase that stuck out in my head that someone used here to slam those with enough foresight to see this team was going to be a disaster and the only way they'd get better was through the draft.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I still wouldn't say I scolded anyone. Sure, I disagreed with some people who called for the team to pull out all the stops in the first and second months of the season to start tanking because at that point the team should be focusing on player development more than draft positioning, I stand by that. How many games have Chandler and Dudley won for the Suns because they weren't traded in November or December? It's impossible to say, looking at their stats and the fact the team has won all of 19 games I don't think they've helped win very many, if any at all. It's impossible to prove either way.

I know I didn't tell anyone to find a new team to follow. The Suns needs all the fans they can get. I may have said something about it getting old seeing people root for the team to tank in November and I still feel that way. When people are mad their favorite team won a game within the first 2 months of the season because it'll screw up the draft that doesn't make sense to me. I find it ridiculous to root for losses that early in the season, especially when the team was racking up losses on their own. They've been at the bottom of the standings all year and that hasn't changed. They suck, they don't need to tank to lose. If people want to root for the team to tank in December, that's their choose, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them. If they post about it on a message board there will be people that disagree with that. I disagreed with those posters then but that doesn't mean I scalded them. I'd like to think I've been respectful with everyone here. If I haven't been, that's between me and them though, possibly the mods if I crossed a line. I don't believe I've told anyone how to be a fan, if I have then I would apologize for that.

I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to you though since it was pokerface that asked if I was one of the people who "scalded" him earlier this season, in regards to tanking. Since you want to level accusations at me though I feel the need to defend myself. It seems you would rather stir the pot then add anything of value though. If you want to do that, I got an issue with something you said to me previously. You called me a liar and accused me of making things up in a recent game thread and I responded it to then with proof that I wasn't making anything up but you decided to move on to complain about something else. I didn't make anything up then, and I'm not doing it now. You never bothered rescinding that accusation though. If you want to talk about that, I'm happy to. Otherwise if @pokerface has a problem with something he thinks I said to him, I'll talk to him about that.

Here's that game thread, give it a look...

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/threads/trail-blazers-suns-game-thread-2-24-18.259508/

the levels of denial in this post run too deep to even respond to.

moving on.

 

[Hoop Head]

the levels of denial in this post run too deep to even respond to.

moving on.

For the past few weeks you've done nothing but toss around personal attacks at others and when confronted you either dodge it completely or try to justify it in some way. It's bullshi t. I've provided evidence that you called me a liar for no reason other than you didn't like what I posted. Rather than accept that you were wrong you're going to pretend like I'm the one with a problem. The problem is how you've been an insufferable douchebag for the last couple of months. If someone doesn't think that McD is the worst GM in the history of the sport then you'll rag on about how every decision he's made has been a fireable offense and everyone lacks your unique insight that allows you to see the exact reasoning behind every step of every move he's made. If we listened while you highlight his incompetence we would finally understand how doomed the Suns are to do nothing but fail and be the laughing stock of the league so long as he's employed. One of the main issues is he's obsessed with weak white players from Europe and he's going to draft the one available this year which will doom the Suns for the next decade. God forbid anyone try to talk about any skills that Doncic does bring to the table, because the only way they can do that is if they can put away the lotion and tissue long enough to make a post about him anyways. If something is said about him that invokes the name of another NBA player then you'll rant about how they're nothing alike and what an idiot that person is for thinking so. That is despite how it's explicitly stated that Doncic only compares to them in 1 single facet but you ignore that part entirely because even mentioning his name within the same post as an NBA player is heresy.

I don't care if this gets me a timeout for a little while, I know I'm not the only one here that's tired of your bullshi t. This is a Suns message board and we're all fans of the team. Everybody here wants to see them compete and do well, ultimately. We disagree on how they'll get there and that's fine because we're not making the decisions, we're all playing "armchair quarterback" to some degree or another. Our common bond is this NBA team. No one here is a better or worse Suns fan than the next person. There's no need for you to try to act as the ultimate authority on what constitutes a fan and how they should interact with each other, except of course when it comes to dealing with you. You shouldn't ever be questioned. Get over yourself, man. I'm tired of seeing you try to knock me and others here with every post you make. Wasn't your time out enough to give you a little perspective? Apparently not, since you return and try to tell me how I talked down to @pokerface earlier in the season and questioned other people's fandom, neither of which happened. Or how you'll shine the light on how @Mainstreet accused tankers of "abhorrent behavior" despite him never saying that. It'd trouble you too much to provide proof to back your accusations, despite others doing so when called into question. You can't be bothered with finding proof because others are in denial, that's it. You know there isn't any and you're literally making ish up because you're too full of yourself to possibly be wrong.

 

[Hoop Head]

Weeks? This has always been his 'MO'. When he feels strongly about something he skips discussion and goes straight to mocking, deriding and haranguing. If you get tired of it and start responding in kind you can expect a forum drive-by from a moderator that reads a handful of posts and assumes he has the feel of the board. One day Cheese will come to realize he's just being a jerk to a lot of people that come here to share and learn, and at times like this, commiserate, with fellow Suns fans. But that day isn't here yet.

I said weeks because I don't recall interacting with him towards the beginning of the season. I feel 100% comfortable with stating weeks though, however months may have been more applicable. Unlike him, I'd rather not make a claim that I'm not totally sure of and I'm sure he's been insufferable with all of his postings, on the Suns forum at least, for that long.

Seeing you pop in and post for probably the 2nd time or 3rd time this season and say that though makes me think I would have been safe saying months instead of weeks though. I miss seeing your input around here, you were one of my favorite posters to read. Unfortunately I believe I'm learning first hand why you don't post as often as you used to though.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I said weeks because I don't recall interacting with him towards the beginning of the season. I feel 100% comfortable with stating weeks though, however months may have been more applicable. Unlike him, I'd rather not make a claim that I'm not totally sure of and I'm sure he's been insufferable with all of his postings, on the Suns forum at least, for that long.

Seeing you pop in and post for probably the 2nd time or 3rd time this season and say that though makes me think I would have been safe saying months instead of weeks though. I miss seeing your input around here, you were one of my favorite posters to read. Unfortunately I believe I'm learning first hand why you don't post as often as you used to though.

I was hoping I'd deleted my post quickly enough to avoid getting involved. I tend to re-read my posts and if it looks like I'm simply making a bad situation worse, I delete. And my post will do nothing good around here.

 

[Chaplin]

I was hoping I'd deleted my post quickly enough to avoid getting involved. I tend to re-read my posts and if it looks like I'm simply making a bad situation worse, I delete. And my post will do nothing good around here.

To be fair, nowadays, most everyone's posts do nothing good around here.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I was hoping I'd deleted my post quickly enough to avoid getting involved. I tend to re-read my posts and if it looks like I'm simply making a bad situation worse, I delete. And my post will do nothing good around here.

Steve. Nice to hear from you. BTW. I do this a lot too. I probably have deleted more posts than I have made.

Losing takes a toll, especially during the game threads.

 

[pokerface]

Sorry I caused a storm on here and sorry @poop but it's hard to hear the expectations about the draft on this board. It's like very few cared about the draft early in the season and now we are owed everything apparently and everyone is in on the tank. I thought it was "wrong" to root for losses and to talk about sitting Booker but now it's second nature. There shouldn't be a war over this it's just ironic.

Ouchie and I were made to feel bad over this so I thank Cheese for acknowledging that. Let's keep it fun but maybe get off the expectations a tad. Ayton is shooting for the moon here and even if we got Bagley or Doncic we'd be VERY lucky. Porter, Jackson, Carter and Young would be nice additions as well.

 

[SirStefan32]

For the past few weeks you've done nothing but toss around personal attacks at others and when confronted you either dodge it completely or try to justify it in some way. It's bullshi t. I've provided evidence that you called me a liar for no reason other than you didn't like what I posted. Rather than accept that you were wrong you're going to pretend like I'm the one with a problem. The problem is how you've been an insufferable douchebag for the last couple of months. If someone doesn't think that McD is the worst GM in the history of the sport then you'll rag on about how every decision he's made has been a fireable offense and everyone lacks your unique insight that allows you to see the exact reasoning behind every step of every move he's made. If we listened while you highlight his incompetence we would finally understand how doomed the Suns are to do nothing but fail and be the laughing stock of the league so long as he's employed. One of the main issues is he's obsessed with weak white players from Europe and he's going to draft the one available this year which will doom the Suns for the next decade. God forbid anyone try to talk about any skills that Doncic does bring to the table, because the only way they can do that is if they can put away the lotion and tissue long enough to make a post about him anyways. If something is said about him that invokes the name of another NBA player then you'll rant about how they're nothing alike and what an idiot that person is for thinking so. That is despite how it's explicitly stated that Doncic only compares to them in 1 single facet but you ignore that part entirely because even mentioning his name within the same post as an NBA player is heresy.

I don't care if this gets me a timeout for a little while, I know I'm not the only one here that's tired of your bullshi t. This is a Suns message board and we're all fans of the team. Everybody here wants to see them compete and do well, ultimately. We disagree on how they'll get there and that's fine because we're not making the decisions, we're all playing "armchair quarterback" to some degree or another. Our common bond is this NBA team. No one here is a better or worse Suns fan than the next person. There's no need for you try to act as the ultimate authority on what constitutes a fan and how they should interact with each other, except of course when it comes to dealing with you. You shouldn't ever be questioned. Get over yourself, man. I'm tired of seeing you try to knock me and others here with every post you make. Wasn't your time out enough to give you a little perspective? Apparently not since you return and try tell me how I talked down to @pokerface earlier in the season and questioned other people's fandom, none of which happened though. Or how you'll shine the light on how @Mainstreet accused tankers of "abhorrent behavior" despite him never saying that. It'd trouble you too much to provide proof to back your accusations, despite others doing so when called into question. You can't be bothered with finding proof because others are in denial, that's it. You know there isn't any and you're literally making ish up because you're too full of yourself to possible be wrong.

I completely agree with this.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Sorry I caused a storm on here and sorry @poop but it's hard to hear the expectations about the draft on this board. It's like very few cared about the draft early in the season and now we are owed everything apparently and everyone is in on the tank. I thought it was "wrong" to root for losses and to talk about sitting Booker but now it's second nature. There shouldn't be a war over this it's just ironic.

Ouchie and I were made to feel bad over this so I thank Cheese for acknowledging that. Let's keep it fun but maybe get off the expectations a tad. Ayton is shooting for the moon here and even if we got Bagley or Doncic we'd be VERY lucky. Porter, Jackson, Carter and Young would be nice additions as well.

I get really frustrated when posters are angry about wins. Its an impossible expectation--lose, but only by a little bit and with all of your young players playing well. But it is the blow out losses which seem to really raise the ire and conflict between all of us. It might also be kind of difficult to post responsibly when drinking heavily and watching a Suns blowout loss at the same time.

But we are here now. We all want the best pick possible. Truce.

 

[Chaplin]

Sorry I caused a storm on here and sorry @poop but it's hard to hear the expectations about the draft on this board. It's like very few cared about the draft early in the season and now we are owed everything apparently and everyone is in on the tank. I thought it was "wrong" to root for losses and to talk about sitting Booker but now it's second nature. There shouldn't be a war over this it's just ironic.

Ouchie and I were made to feel bad over this so I thank Cheese for acknowledging that. Let's keep it fun but maybe get off the expectations a tad. Ayton is shooting for the moon here and even if we got Bagley or Doncic we'd be VERY lucky. Porter, Jackson, Carter and Young would be nice additions as well.

There is no tank! I'm not sure how that needs to be communicated for you to get it. We are not tanking, we are losing because we are a bad team. Period.

 

[JCSunsfan]

There is no tank! I'm not sure how that needs to be communicated for you to get it. We are not tanking, we are losing because we are a bad team. Period.

You don't think there is a lack of urgency to rack up wins right now?

 

[pokerface]

I get really frustrated when posters are angry about wins. Its an impossible expectation--lose, but only by a little bit and with all of your young players playing well. But it is the blow out losses which seem to really raise the ire and conflict between all of us. It might also be kind of difficult to post responsibly when drinking heavily and watching a Suns blowout loss at the same time.

But we are here now. We all want the best pick possible. Truce.

Well this being late in the season now I'm feeling some tension on this board and expectations are rising. Bender and Chriss crapping out in epic fashion only raised the stakes in this draft. But we have to be realistic that there are a lot of bad teams and this is a dogfight. If we 'really' wanted the best shot at Ayton and wanted to be in a comfortable position now that should have been planned out prior. My point is the suns wanted to compete in some games thoughout the season so now we sweat it out.

 

[Chaplin]

You don't think there is a lack of urgency to rack up wins right now?

Nope. We're bad. Period. We're not tanking by going down by 20 in the 1st quarter. Come on.

 

[pokerface]

Nope. We're bad. Period. We're not tanking by going down by 20 in the 1st quarter. Come on.

Yeah but playing Booker with a sprained finger seems stupid. His last game was off because of it now he should sit. If that's a tank move then so be it. We aren't going to have many opportunities like this with our draft and unless we want to suck for more years the suns better smarten up.

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah but playing Booker with a sprained finger seems stupid. His last game was off because of it now he should sit. If that's a tank move then so be it. We aren't going to have many opportunities like this with our draft and unless we want to suck for more years the suns better smarten up.

I agree, but that is even further proof that we aren't tanking.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think what the current conversation boils down to is this:

A few people (primarily poker and I most visibly) had come to the conclusion that we were going to stink this year.

Those same people looked at the draft and saw dazzling opportunity.

Those same people married those two fact sets and determined it was in our best interest to lose as many games as possible this season and openly stated as much.

We were repeatedly told our thoughts were wrong, or our actions in rooting for losses was wrong, or we were rooting for losses too early. But make no mistake we came under regular and heavy attack. So much so that eventually we were even being proactively attacked for supporting losing when we didn’t even bring up the topic.

We are now so apparently awful that people can (with hindsight) recognize what we were forecasting from the get go.

People now want us to lose to increase our odds in the lottery. For people like poker and I we find that awfully hypocritical. To attack us for our thoughts (and truly our vision) early in the season but now do an about face. Losses count the same no matter when they occurred. Our rooting for them at the beginning of the season is no different than others doing so now. And we were belittled for it. Actually told we weren’t good fans. When in reality, we were the ones that were right. I don’t believe much in told-you-so’s because this is the internet and ultimately who cares . . . but with the tightness at the bottom of the standings at present endangering our odds in the lottery and grief we took . . . well, let’s just say we told you so. From before the season even started.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree, but that is even further proof that we aren't tanking.

You’re absolutely right we are not overtly tanking. But we should be wishing for losses no matter how they come.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think what the current conversation boils down to is this:

A few people (primarily poker and I most visibly) had come to the conclusion that we were going to stink this year.

Those same people looked at the draft and saw dazzling opportunity.

Those same people married those two fact sets and determined it was in our best interest to lose as many games as possible this season and openly stated as much.

We were repeatedly told our thoughts were wrong, or our actions in rooting for losses was wrong, or we were rooting for losses too early. But make no mistake we came under regular and heavy attack. So much so that eventually we were even being proactively attacked for supporting losing when we didn’t even bring up the topic.

We are now so apparently awful that people can (with hindsight) recognize what we were forecasting from the get go.

People now want us to lose to increase our odds in the lottery. For people like poker and I we find that awfully hypocritical. To attack us for our thoughts (and truly our vision) early in the season but now do an about face. Losses count the same no matter when they occurred. Our rooting for them at the beginning of the season is no different than others doing so now. And we were belittled for it. Actually told we weren’t good fans. When in reality, we were the ones that were right. I don’t believe much in told-you-so’s because this is the internet and ultimately who cares . . . but with the tightness at the bottom of the standings at present endangering our odds in the lottery and grief we took . . . well, let’s just say we told you so. From before the season even started.

I can recall being firmly against the idea of tanking early in the season and I still stand by my opinion on that. Early in the season there is still hope of at least being an okay team as you really can't know for sure how things are going to go until they happen. Tanking breeds bad habits in players and we are trying to develop young players and develop a winning attitude in our young players. Thus losing on purpose is not good for the players on our roster. That being said once it was clear that the season was lost and that we may only have two or so players on the roster worth keeping long term it became very clear that we needed to start losing. By rooting for the tank at the very beginning of the season you are taking away the even smallest amount of hope that the team could surprise us and I think that is what people took exception to early in the season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I completely agree with this.

Says all the people who were BASHING me, Ouchie and Poker all SEASON.

Ya... I got out of line with the stupid lotion comment ONLY AFTER YOU BASHED ME. Don’t forget that. I didn’t run to the moderators (like some apparently did with mine) after to say you threw the first punch, but pretending you didn’t that is as laughable as the self-righteous indignation above.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I can recall being firmly against the idea of tanking early in the season and I still stand by my opinion on that. Early in the season there is still hope of at least being an okay team as you really can't know for sure how things are going to go until they happen. Tanking breeds bad habits in players and we are trying to develop young players and develop a winning attitude in our young players. Thus losing on purpose is not good for the players on our roster. That being said once it was clear that the season was lost and that we may only have two or so players on the roster worth keeping long term it became very clear that we needed to start losing. By rooting for the tank at the very beginning of the season you are taking away the even smallest amount of hope that the team could surprise us and I think that is what people took exception to early in the season.

There’s taking exception to and then there’s flat out calling people bad fans, telling them to get lost @Carolinacacti is one name that immediately comes to mind and that happened recently.

If you’re going to throw a pile of crap on people for months, you shouldn’t be surprised when they start throwing I.T back... especially when you start advocating for what those people foresaw was the way forward in the first place.

(And that a general YOU to parts of the board... you’ve always seemed even keeled and I never remember you projecting BS into others arguments).