Pick Watch 2018

[SirStefan32]

Says all the people who were BASHING me, Ouchie and Poker all SEASON.

Ya... I got out of line with the stupid lotion comment ONLY AFTER YOU BASHED ME. Don’t forget that. I didn’t run to the moderators (like some apparently did with mine) after to say you threw the first punch, but pretending you didn’t that is as laughable as the self-righteous indignation above.

Um, when did I bash you or anyone else? I'd love to see it so I can apologize.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Um, when did I bash you or anyone else? I'd love to see it so I can apologize.

When you came out with your “CAN YOU EVER SAY ANYTHING POSITIVE? EVERYTHING IS NEGTAIVE WITH YOU!”

We were just talking basketball and you just threw out that negativity slam.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Here’s the bottom line... we have been atrocious for years and everyone’s pissed about I.T for one reason or another and the board has become toxic.

And I fully admit that I have contributed to that. But the idea that that has happened in a vacuum and happens completely unprovoked just isn’t reality.

 

[SirStefan32]

When you came out with your “CAN YOU EVER SAY ANYTHING POSITIVE? EVERYTHING IS NEGTAIVE WITH YOU!”

We were just talking basketball and you just threw out that negativity slam.

I don't believe I used all caps. Haven't done that since High School. I (and the rest of this board) are tired of everything always being negative. If I remember correctly, Bender went crazy in the 4th quarter, and we were all saying how impressed we were. You showed up saying it didn't matter and he still sucked. We've been terrible for years, and we find pleasure and hope in seeing our players do something well. Constant negativity gets to people. I don't see my comment as "bashing" anyone. Instead, I was stating a fact that you were being very negative.

If that qualifies as "bashing", then I stand corrected. Either way, I am sorry you took it that way. I did not intend to bash anyone. I got frustrated with your constant negativity, even when good things happen (such as bender going crazy in that one quarter.)

 

[Carolinacacti]

I will literally leave the board forever if he doesn’t go number 1. That’s how sure I am he’s the first pick.

Well that settles it. I want the Kings with the first pick to take Doncic.
Sorry had to take a Jab at cheese.

 

[Mainstreet]

I was hoping I'd deleted my post quickly enough to avoid getting involved. I tend to re-read my posts and if it looks like I'm simply making a bad situation worse, I delete. And my post will do nothing good around here.

It's great to have you back Steve. Your posts have been missed.

The draft will be coming soon. I'd like to get your opinions on some players.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well that settles it. I want the Kings with the first pick to take Doncic.
Sorry had to take a Jab at cheese.

lol... if anyone can laugh at themselves, it's me. It's kinda the only way I get through life. Ouchie can attest to that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't believe I used all caps. Haven't done that since High School. I (and the rest of this board) are tired of everything always being negative. If I remember correctly, Bender went crazy in the 4th quarter, and we were all saying how impressed we were. You showed up saying it didn't matter and he still sucked.

and here it is... the adding to the comment to make it worse. This is what I'm talking about when I say people "make ish up" to paint someone or someone's idea as dumber than it is. I never said he still sucked in that post. My comment was just about not being impressed to see him step up in what looked like garbage time. Then, you project my comment to the next level and then go off on me.

And that sucks. And it happens A LOT. So, I went off.

We've been terrible for years, and we find pleasure and hope in seeing our players do something well. Constant negativity gets to people. I don't see my comment as "bashing" anyone. Instead, I was stating a fact that you were being very negative.

No... it was a "you're always negative"... again, the broad brush treatment. You yourself earlier in the year actually even defended me once by saying "Cheese gets excited by Booker and when Jackson shows some promise." Which is true... and IMO, literally the only things to actually get excited about this season.

If that qualifies as "bashing", then I stand corrected. Either way, I am sorry you took it that way. I did not intend to bash anyone. I got frustrated with your constant negativity, even when good things happen (such as bender going crazy in that one quarter.)

again... it was the broad-brush treatment and elevating my opinion to another level. I took that as a bash. I appreciate your apology. Hell... my actions that night even made me try to find even more Doncic videos and is why I came back trying to find common ground when I asked if he might be comparable to Harden.

Everyone here is pretty miserable with this team and I just think we take it out on each other. I will honestly do my best to de-snark and hope others do the same.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's great to have you back Steve. Your posts have been missed.

The draft will be coming soon. I'd like to get your opinions on some players.

For what little it's worth, I think Ayton is overrated (slightly) and Trae Young is greatly undervalued. I think DeAndre's ceiling is a modern age Patrick Ewing. But that's ceiling - I think he'll likely be a consistent 20/10 player in the NBA but I don't know if he'll ever rise above borderline all star.

He plays just a bit too upright and has average hands (at best), an inconsistent motor/focus and a poor understanding of team defense. And despite his chiseled frame, he's far from being an unmovable force down low. If we draft him, we'll probably be wishing he came with Monroe's hands and Barkley's butt. He might be our best choice because of talent/fit but I'm flabbergasted when I hear Barkley, Kellogg and Walton talk about him as a lock to be a once in a generation talent.

As for Young, I think he hit the freshman wall 6 weeks ago and the real Young is the guy we saw in December. Very few first year players can sustain excellence while averaging more than 35 minutes a game carrying the kind of load he's had to carry. My biggest concern with him will be whether he can hold up physically, I have no doubts about his ability to excel at the next level.

 

[Mainstreet]

For what little it's worth, I think Ayton is overrated (slightly) and Trae Young is greatly undervalued. I think DeAndre's ceiling is a modern age Patrick Ewing. But that's ceiling - I think he'll likely be a consistent 20/10 player in the NBA but I don't know if he'll ever rise above borderline all star.

He plays just a bit too upright and has average hands (at best), an inconsistent motor/focus and a poor understanding of team defense. And despite his chiseled frame, he's far from being an unmovable force down low. If we draft him, we'll probably be wishing he came with Monroe's hands and Barkley's butt. He might be our best choice because of talent/fit but I'm flabbergasted when I hear Barkley, Kellogg and Walton talk about him as a lock to be a once in a generation talent.

As for Young, I think he hit the freshman wall 6 weeks ago and the real Young is the guy we saw in December. Very few first year players can sustain excellence while averaging more than 35 minutes a game carrying the kind of load he's had to carry. My biggest concern with him will be whether he can hold up physically, I have no doubts about his ability to excel at the next level.

Trae Young was one of my early favorites with his Nash like passing and shooting skills. He lacks elite athleticism but so did Nash. What troubles me about him though is Oklahoma's slide at the end of the season. I don't know if teams figured out his game or it was a lack of talent around him. If college teams can take away from his game, certainly NBA teams will as well. I do like him in the top 7 picks.

In regard to Ayton, I like the idea of adding a big man that has the complete package. It's something the Suns have been lacking since the start of the franchise taking nothing away from other Suns centers. Plus the Suns really could use a center. However, he is not a talent like Kareem. One of the things Ayton has going for him is he is a safe pick. He may never be great but he should have a solid career.

I like Michael Porter but his back is a concern for me... maybe it's because my back is a problem. Back issues seem to never go away.

Doncic is a question mark for me because I have never seen him play live. Maybe he is as good as everyone says but I wonder if he is a true PG. If Bamba could be another Rudy Gobert, the Suns could build around him.

Right now I'm liking Bagley a lot at #2.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Trae Young was one of my early favorites with his Nash like passing and shooting skills. He lacks elite athleticism but so did Nash. What troubles me about him though is Oklahoma's slide at the end of the season. I don't know if teams figured out his game or it was a lack of talent around him. If college teams can take away from his game, certainly NBA teams will as well. I do like him in the top 7 picks.

In regard to Ayton, I like the idea of adding a big man that has the complete package. It's something the Suns have been lacking since the start of the franchise taking nothing away from other Suns centers. Plus the Suns really could use a center. However, he is not a talent like Kareem. One of the things Ayton has going for him is he is a safe pick. He may never be great but he should have a solid career.

I like Michael Porter but his back is a concern for me... maybe it's because my back is a problem. Back issues seem to never go away.

Doncic is a question mark for me because I have never seen him play live. Maybe he is as good as everyone says but I wonder if he is a true PG. If Bamba could be another Rudy Gobert, the Suns could build around him.

Right now I'm liking Bagley a lot at #2.

He had almost no help whatsoever. I think the biggest reason that teams were able to take him out of his game in the 2nd half of the season is because they started trapping and sending help his way once they realized what he was doing wasn't a fluke. Problem was that no one on his team could help enough to stop teams from doing it.

 

[BC867]

I was hoping I'd deleted my post quickly enough to avoid getting involved. I tend to re-read my posts and if it looks like I'm simply making a bad situation worse, I delete. And my post will do nothing good around here.

Hi Steve. 'So good to see you back.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I can recall being firmly against the idea of tanking early in the season and I still stand by my opinion on that. Early in the season there is still hope of at least being an okay team as you really can't know for sure how things are going to go until they happen. Tanking breeds bad habits in players and we are trying to develop young players and develop a winning attitude in our young players. Thus losing on purpose is not good for the players on our roster. That being said once it was clear that the season was lost and that we may only have two or so players on the roster worth keeping long term it became very clear that we needed to start losing. By rooting for the tank at the very beginning of the season you are taking away the even smallest amount of hope that the team could surprise us and I think that is what people took exception to early in the season.

Hmm I have to disagree with all of this.

“you really can't know for sure how things are going to go until they happen” - um maybe you can’t “know” but you can certainly look at the facts set in front of you and make a VERY good and accurate estimation. I mean a few of us basically “knew” we were going to be awful. It wasn’t a guess. It was based on the fact that we’ve been awful the past few seasons, didn’t add any established proven talent and only added rookies (the projected best of whom hadn’t even looked dominant in te summer or preseason).

“Tanking breeds bad habits in players” - there is literally ZERO evidence of this. In fact, the evidence seems to point in exactly the OPPOSITE direction. To date the single best example we have of a team that purposefully yanked over multiple seasons is Philadelphia. Other teams have been bad but you shave was directly about “tanking” and really the sixers “process” is the only firm example of that (although maybe the spurs fall in that category when they say the admiral for the season - but that doesn’t support your contention either). And now that the fruits of the process are playing together - shocking as it may seem - they’re winning. Please point out the “bad habits” these players acquired by tanking. Alternatively if your argument is that LOSING breeds bad habits I’d like to see your evidence of that as well. In all my time watching basketball TALENT trumps losing. You get enough talent you win. You don’t you lose. Losing doesn’t make you lose more. That’s just an empty argument thrown out their to counter tanking with literally zero evidence.

“By rooting for the tank at the very beginning of the season you are taking away the even smallest amount of hope that the team could surprise us“ - again, no. By rooting for tanking I am not taking away any hope YOU possess. My rooting for losses literally doesn’t affect the team’s outcome and thus shouldn’t impact your “hope.” Your hope is your opinion. Your hope is no more a legitimate position than was my entirely realistic perspective on where the suns were heading and the course of action that I deemed optimal for them. In fact, I would argue that your hope is actually a destructive factor for the team in the long run when the team’s facts and circumstances are what they were at seasons beginning. If the front office hears your hope, which eventually turns to disappointment, and they react to it by making shortsighted short-term moves it could kill the franchise’s future. Alternatively if all fans were realistic about where the team was. Their expectations would be managed. Te front office could have comfortably lost all season. And we might have a three game lead on Memphis in the tankathon if we say players for every bump and bruise. Is it really going to make long term impact if Booker sat an additional 5 games sprinkled throughout the season? Not to bookers game. But maybe to our odds in the draft.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

For what little it's worth, I think Ayton is overrated (slightly) and Trae Young is greatly undervalued. I think DeAndre's ceiling is a modern age Patrick Ewing. But that's ceiling - I think he'll likely be a consistent 20/10 player in the NBA but I don't know if he'll ever rise above borderline all star.

He plays just a bit too upright and has average hands (at best), an inconsistent motor/focus and a poor understanding of team defense. And despite his chiseled frame, he's far from being an unmovable force down low. If we draft him, we'll probably be wishing he came with Monroe's hands and Barkley's butt. He might be our best choice because of talent/fit but I'm flabbergasted when I hear Barkley, Kellogg and Walton talk about him as a lock to be a once in a generation talent.

As for Young, I think he hit the freshman wall 6 weeks ago and the real Young is the guy we saw in December. Very few first year players can sustain excellence while averaging more than 35 minutes a game carrying the kind of load he's had to carry. My biggest concern with him will be whether he can hold up physically, I have no doubts about his ability to excel at the next level.

Man you’re really downplaying Ewing’s impact. If he’s Ewing we are STOKED! We have never had a center that good. And I disagree . . . I think he’s got good hands and I think he’ll be a better rebounder than 10/game. He’s not Shaq. I don’t think he’ll be THAT dominant. But he’s going to have a profound impact for a squad like our’s.

My biggest concern with young is his turnovers.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Man you’re really downplaying Ewing’s impact. If he’s Ewing we are STOKED! We have never had a center that good. And I disagree . . . I think he’s got good hands and I think he’ll be a better rebounder than 10/game. He’s not Shaq. I don’t think he’ll be THAT dominant. But he’s going to have a profound impact for a squad like our’s.

My biggest concern with young is his turnovers.

Am I? I think his ceiling is Ewing (maybe LMA). I just don't have much confidence that he will reach that ceiling. But his floor alone makes him a reasonable pick. And I wasn't suggesting that he'd grab just 10 rebounds per game, just that he'd reach the 20/10 level as a player. Like you said, he probably will grab a few more than that. But I also think that he'll have a bigger impact in stats than he will in wins unless he ends up with a coach that will get the most out of him. That's not to say he won't make a bad team better, just that his numbers will be talked about like we do Kevin Love or DeMarcus Cousins.

As for Young, his turnovers bother me too but he has great vision and makes some very nice passes. Even Curry struggled with his turnover to assist ratio in college, in fact it was much worse than Trae's. But neither one of them had a lot of talent around them.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Steve Nash had 3.5 plus turnovers per game in his best years. Good passers will get turnovers. Some because they try a little too hard, some because players do not catch the ball well. I like Ayton, and I like that Young is slipping on most boards. Some have him as low as 9. Keep on sliding buddy. Slide to the spot where we can trad 15 and 16 and get you.

I would love for this draft to be one of Ayton, Bagley, Bamba, Porter

plus

Young

 

[pokerface]

Steve Nash had 3.5 plus turnovers per game in his best years. Good passers will get turnovers. Some because they try a little too hard, some because players do not catch the ball well. I like Ayton, and I like that Young is slipping on most boards. Some have him as low as 9. Keep on sliding buddy. Slide to the spot where we can trad 15 and 16 and get you.

I would love for this draft to be one of Ayton, Bagley, Bamba, Porter

plus

Young

Heck yeah! That's a dream scenario.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Am I? I think his ceiling is Ewing (maybe LMA). I just don't have much confidence that he will reach that ceiling. But his floor alone makes him a reasonable pick. And I wasn't suggesting that he'd grab just 10 rebounds per game, just that he'd reach the 20/10 level as a player. Like you said, he probably will grab a few more than that. But I also think that he'll have a bigger impact in stats than he will in wins unless he ends up with a coach that will get the most out of him. That's not to say he won't make a bad team better, just that his numbers will be talked about like we do Kevin Love or DeMarcus Cousins.

As for Young, his turnovers bother me too but he has great vision and makes some very nice passes. Even Curry struggled with his turnover to assist ratio in college, in fact it was much worse than Trae's. But neither one of them had a lot of talent around them.

Reasonable

 

[Mainstreet]

Steve Nash had 3.5 plus turnovers per game in his best years. Good passers will get turnovers. Some because they try a little too hard, some because players do not catch the ball well. I like Ayton, and I like that Young is slipping on most boards. Some have him as low as 9. Keep on sliding buddy. Slide to the spot where we can trad 15 and 16 and get you.

I would love for this draft to be one of Ayton, Bagley, Bamba, Porter

plus

Young

Didn't you have Young at #3 before?

I do like Ayton, Bagley and Bamba. I'd prefer the Suns do not draft Porter with their pick.

Somehow I feel the Suns are destined to draft Bamba.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Didn't you have Young at #3 before?

I do like Ayton, Bagley and Bamba. I'd prefer the Suns do not draft Porter with their pick.

Somehow I feel the Suns are destined to draft Bamba.

I hope you're wrong. If we had a good team and could afford to gamble, Bamba would make a lot of sense. But he's a huge gamble and I don't think we can afford that especially having whiffed on Chriss and perhaps Bender. We need to draft a prospect that has a high floor rather than focusing solely on up-side.

 

[Phrazbit]

Didn't you have Young at #3 before?

I do like Ayton, Bagley and Bamba. I'd prefer the Suns do not draft Porter with their pick.

Somehow I feel the Suns are destined to draft Bamba.

Hope not. If his arms were 5 inches shorter I don't think he'd be on the board at all. The guy has zero skill other than putbacks and spoon fed dunks, and when you watch Texas games he is so intent on trying to get blocks that he is often guarding no one.

I'd probably put him like 7th or 8th... and I'd feel really nervous about the pick.

 

[Mainstreet]

Hope not. If his arms were 5 inches shorter I don't think he'd be on the board at all. The guy has zero skill other than putbacks and spoon fed dunks, and when you watch Texas games he is so intent on trying to get blocks that he is often guarding no one.

I'd probably put him like 7th or 8th... and I'd feel really nervous about the pick.

It's easy get get caught up in measurements. I said this season I was going to look for a definite skill like shooting. I better stick to it.

 

[Mainstreet]

I hope you're wrong. If we had a good team and could afford to gamble, Bamba would make a lot of sense. But he's a huge gamble and I don't think we can afford that especially having whiffed on Chriss and perhaps Bender. We need to draft a prospect that has a high floor rather than focusing solely on up-side.

Sort of like Tatum or Markkanen I'm guessing.

Do you have a player in mind?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Sort of like Tatum or Markkanen I'm guessing.

Do you have a player in mind?

Well, I think Ayton, Young, Bagley are all pretty safe. I'd put Porter there too if there were no injury concerns. And even that next tier has some solid prospects that aren't just potential.

We're a horrible defensive team and we are a very weak shooting team. I really don't care who we grab as long as he can change our fortunes dramatically in either area or at least decently on both ends.

 

[Mainstreet]

Well, I think Ayton, Young, Bagley are all pretty safe. I'd put Porter there too if there were no injury concerns. And even that next tier has some solid prospects that aren't just potential.

We're a horrible defensive team and we are a very weak shooting team. I really don't care who we grab as long as he can change our fortunes dramatically in either area or at least decently on both ends.

As bad as the Suns offense, I don't they can keep ignoring scoring. Those you mention should bring that to the table. However, I wouldn't mind surrounding a defensive center with shooters.