Plan to panic

[Chaplin]

IMO, thats a favorable schedule for this team - 11 of the first 18 games on the road, which will help it jell. They finished on a relatively high note last year so they probably have too high of an opinion of themselves - which means they are going to have learn how hard they have to play to succeed this year. A tough schedule helps that learning process.

Right now every one but JR is shooting abysmally from 3 - it will be long miserable season if it stays that way but now its a good thing because it pushes them to develop other aspects of their offense and they have to work harder on D. What an awful thing it would be if they blythely romped through the pre-season games because their 3's were falling left and right.

You'd think by now I'd have more confidence in Gentry but I keep having this nightmare that he gets locked into having Warrick and Frye as his second unit frontcourt and instead of changing it when they do poorly, he reverts to old behavior and plays the first unit more and more. I guess it could be worse - if the first unit was even poorer than the second unit because he just can't find a way to get much out of Turkoglu. Like many others I had vague ideas of Hedo's playmaking skills somehow freeing up Nash as a spot up shooter but reality is starting to set in. Maybe Chap can explain how it sees that coming to pass since he's still confident Hedo is going to be a grand success here. (What a change for him, replying to one of my posts with some basketball talk instead calling me naive, stupid and hasty.)

Nice jab there. I never said he was going to be a "grand success". I think his skill set in this style is a good fit--apparently you think differently. The whole rebounding issue is a problem besides that point.

Like I said earlier in another thread, Gentry hasn't figured out how to use Hedo on the floor. All that talk about freeing up Nash is just that, talk. They need to put it into practice, but you're talking about taking a 36 year old point guard and changing his game from what he's been doing for YEARS. I don't know if it's Nash or Gentry, but they need to concede that Hedo needs to ball in his hands--not as a catch-and-shoot guy, but as a facilitator. That's the kind of player he is and is exactly what they should have expected when they traded for him. The fact that he's put as a PF is not Hedo's fault, it's the Suns. Personally, I think the solution to the problem is to put Grant Hill on the bench unfortunately, and start either Channing or Warrick at the PF position while Hedo is at the 3. (this solution works great if we sign Dampier) Or keep Grant at the 3 and bring Hedo off the bench as the 6th man.

So feel free to put words into my mouth how I think he's the best PF we have and he'll thrive there--because I never said such a thing.

 

[dodie53]

we should have traded for Boris.

 

[elindholm]

If we start failing at the ticket counter, I could easily see us moving JR and/or Hedo and maybe even sacrificing Dragic or Lopez in order to make it happen.

See, that doesn't make any sense. Very few teams are under the cap, which means that the Suns would have to take back equivalent salary for this season. Richardson is already expiring, so it's almost impossible to construct a plausible scenario in which trading him would save significant money.

As for Turkoglu, if the team is struggling -- remember, this is all a hypothetical -- then he'll be one of the biggest culprits, by which I mean that if Turkoglu plays well, the Suns should be fine. Most teams would consider a package of "struggling Turkoglu" plus Lopez and Dragic to be value-neutral at best, which means the Suns wouldn't be able to cut any costs by moving it.

Sarver is willing to spend to put a decent team out there but I doubt he's willing to hemorrhage cash simply to field a bad team.

Costs for this year are fixed, and once Richardson, Hill, and potentially Dudley are gone next year, they'll come down on their own. If Sarver just wants to field a poor team on the cheap, he doesn't have to do anything other than sit on his hands. The Suns are at only around $40 million for guaranteed salaries in 2011-12.

 

[elindholm]

All that talk about freeing up Nash is just that, talk.

You've got that right. This is just the kind of idle thing that someone says in order to generate enthusiasm about a big acquisition (Turkoglu), and the media pounce on it and suddenly it becomes this big unrealistic expectation.

Turkoglu's presence isn't going to change anything fundamental about the Suns' offense.

 

[SunsTzu]

You've got that right. This is just the kind of idle thing that someone says in order to generate enthusiasm about a big acquisition (Turkoglu), and the media pounce on it and suddenly it becomes this big unrealistic expectation.

Turkoglu's presence isn't going to change anything fundamental about the Suns' offense.

They gave the same Nash off the ball lip service when Hill was brought in. I do think Hedo will handle the ball more than Hill, but mostly when Nash is out.

I view as Hedo a perimeter version of Diaw.

 

[pokerface]

I dont see a big drop off this season. Amare was pretty much a glorified jump shooter and a product of Nash. We have plenty of shooters still...plus guys such as Lopez, Frye, and Turkoglu can be x-factors any given game.

 

[AzStevenCal]

See, that doesn't make any sense. Very few teams are under the cap, which means that the Suns would have to take back equivalent salary for this season. Richardson is already expiring, so it's almost impossible to construct a plausible scenario in which trading him would save significant money.

It doesn't take very many under the cap teams to make a deal work. Richardson has value as a player and also as an expiring contract. Sure, moving him and him alone would do little for our bottom line but packaging him with another player might.

As for Turkoglu, if the team is struggling -- remember, this is all a hypothetical -- then he'll be one of the biggest culprits, by which I mean that if Turkoglu plays well, the Suns should be fine. Most teams would consider a package of "struggling Turkoglu" plus Lopez and Dragic to be value-neutral at best, which means the Suns wouldn't be able to cut any costs by moving it.

I think there is a lot of room between the player we would need Turk to be in order to succeed and the player Turk could be that would have no value to anyone else. He could easily be marginally successful with the Suns while the team as a whole flounders. Even if he met his career averages though we'd likely need to put an asset alongside him in order to get someone to bite on his contract.

Costs for this year are fixed, and once Richardson, Hill, and potentially Dudley are gone next year, they'll come down on their own. If Sarver just wants to field a poor team on the cheap, he doesn't have to do anything other than sit on his hands. The Suns are at only around $40 million for guaranteed salaries in 2011-12.

Just out of curiosity, what happens to salaries if the NBA chooses to lockout the players? And regardless, wouldn't there still be some value in moving a player such as Frye or Warrick? Also, if fans are staying away and the team is losing what's the benefit of hanging on to Steve Nash? Doesn't he have a player option coming up or am I misremembering?

Steve

 

[Irish]

I don't know what to think of this team. Clearly the team needs to get in shape and not tank so many three's, but that seems likely. Genrty knows this team is not yet ready to run 48 minutes, but that is simply a question of benching guys who don't play flat out.

In making projections, it is worth considering that roughly half the games are against lottery teams. "There are 14 lottery teams and 15 other playoff teams. If the Suns only beat bad teams, they will still have a shot at going 500. Bad teams don't get back on defense and are rarely in top shape.

I'm not confident the Suns can get deep inot the playoffs because they are all good teams. But I'd be sureprised if the run and gun style will be stopped by bad teams in the regular season. If they stop beating up on the bad teams, then they should panic.

 

[Chaplin]

I don't see how talking about trading players before the season starts does anything but fuel negativity. We have 6 new guys and people are talking about trading them. For what? Saving money? We're already out of luxury tax territory and there is NOTHING whatsoever that says Sarver is looking to get a significantly lower salary structure for the team by gutting it, so not a lot of this makes any sense at all.

The Suns are a decent team--they won't win the championship, and the sooner people realize that trading JRich isn't going to change that, the better. And why in the world would we trade Robin Lopez and Dragic at all? Talking about that is hypocritical to an extreme. That's why Eric is right and it shouldn't even be discussed because it makes no sense.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't see how talking about trading players before the season starts does anything but fuel negativity. We have 6 new guys and people are talking about trading them. For what? Saving money? We're already out of luxury tax territory and there is NOTHING whatsoever that says Sarver is looking to get a significantly lower salary structure for the team by gutting it, so not a lot of this makes any sense at all.

The Suns are a decent team--they won't win the championship, and the sooner people realize that trading JRich isn't going to change that, the better. And why in the world would we trade Robin Lopez and Dragic at all? Talking about that is hypocritical to an extreme. That's why Eric is right and it shouldn't even be discussed because it makes no sense.

First off, I'm not negative - not in the least. Secondly, IMO, do you know what really fuels negativity? UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS. Still, I don't want to drag this board into negativity so I'll give it a rest.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

Nice jab there. I never said he was going to be a "grand success". I think his skill set in this style is a good fit--apparently you think differently. The whole rebounding issue is a problem besides that point.

Like I said earlier in another thread, Gentry hasn't figured out how to use Hedo on the floor. All that talk about freeing up Nash is just that, talk. They need to put it into practice, but you're talking about taking a 36 year old point guard and changing his game from what he's been doing for YEARS. I don't know if it's Nash or Gentry, but they need to concede that Hedo needs to ball in his hands--not as a catch-and-shoot guy, but as a facilitator. That's the kind of player he is and is exactly what they should have expected when they traded for him. The fact that he's put as a PF is not Hedo's fault, it's the Suns. Personally, I think the solution to the problem is to put Grant Hill on the bench unfortunately, and start either Channing or Warrick at the PF position while Hedo is at the 3. (this solution works great if we sign Dampier) Or keep Grant at the 3 and bring Hedo off the bench as the 6th man.

So feel free to put words into my mouth how I think he's the best PF we have and he'll thrive there--because I never said such a thing.

What a disappointment. I wanted to know some details of just how Hedo is going to do his facilitating on this team. What did he do the year he was touted for his 'facilitating'? I didn't pay any attention to him that year so I have no idea what he did. Was a particular player the primary beneficiary of his facilitating? Who? Is he able to hang out at the 3pt line and make plays from there? Can he work his magic posting at one of the elbows or do it along the baseline? Roam around and do it hither and thither? I can imagine him using his height at SF to pass into the low post but at PF, that doesn't seem promising. BTW, Hedo had to have figured out that the Suns were likely to want him to play PF - having a big hole at that position and being a team known for playing smaller players there. Heck, most everyone in here expected it.

Here's something odd - I checked Hedo's assists for all his years and last year as a non-facilitator in Toronto he made them at the same rate as his best years in Orlando - he played fewer minutes so fewer per game.

 

[PhxGametime]

Hedo Turkoglu's last season with the Magic he would start off at 3PT line (and could go both left and right equally) and get a pick up top, drive, and kick out to the 3PT shooters (Pietrus, Lewis, C Lee, Nelson, etc.). He can penetrate all the way to basket but is hot'n'cold there (the games I saw).


He's not money from the post area but has a nice fadeaway shot and can also go 1 on 1 (near end of games) where's he going to make that Steve Nash pull up jumpshot (that Nash makes off a bigman switch). He also will push the ball up court a lot off a rebound but most of you already know that.


Most of the games I watched were the Playoff games that year but also watched the Suns/magic; Suns/raptors games of the last 2 years and magic/blazers regular season. I watched about 11-12 total. He's a nice player but I believe he only played PF one game and only for a few minutes. I'd still prefer him at the 3


I was hoping to watch magic/celtics game 7 (he had a monster game statwise) but it wasn't available to me


and most of his passes to Dwight Howard were alley-ops off a post-up from Howard or Dwights back a player down where he feed em the ball inside over the top. I'm not sure how that'd go with the current Suns players though lol

 

[elindholm]

Just out of curiosity, what happens to salaries if the NBA chooses to lockout the players?

I assume they aren't paid, since otherwise it's pretty useless as a bargaining tactic. "Won't do what we want, eh? Then I guess we'll just have to pay you for doing nothing! (evil cackle)".

And regardless, wouldn't there still be some value in moving a player such as Frye or Warrick?

I wouldn't consider trading either of those players away a panic move. Frye is on a bad contract and Warrick, although good value, is redundant.

 

[Chaplin]

I wouldn't consider trading either of those players away a panic move. Frye is on a bad contract and Warrick, although good value, is redundant.

Redundant with who?

 

[elindholm]

Redundant with who?

"Redundant" was a sloppy word, but I was too lazy to change it. I meant that there isn't really room in the rotation for him and Turkoglu and the whole wing contingent of Hill/Richardson/Dudley/Childress. Warrick is going to have a hard time finding regular minutes unless someone else is either hurt or playing badly.

 

[Chaplin]

"Redundant" was a sloppy word, but I was too lazy to change it. I meant that there isn't really room in the rotation for him and Turkoglu and the whole wing contingent of Hill/Richardson/Dudley/Childress. Warrick is going to have a hard time finding regular minutes unless someone else is either hurt or playing badly.

Oh ok, got it. I have to agree with you there, and it's mostly because Hedo is playing PF. If he was playing SF, then Warrick would find more minutes, IMO. That said, Warrick was one of our better players in the game in Indian Wells, so I'm excited to see him in the next few games. If he continues playing well, then Gentry has a tough job on his hands to get him time.

 

[elindholm]

I have to agree with you there, and it's mostly because Hedo is playing PF. If he was playing SF, then Warrick would find more minutes, IMO.

Yes, exactly. Turkoglu at PF is a terrible fit, but the Suns are more or less stuck with it, because there's nowhere else to put him and they have to play him somewhere.

If he continues playing well, then Gentry has a tough job on his hands to get him time.

I agree. It's sad to say, but the problem would solve itself if Hill were to ask for a trade to a contender. Then Turkoglu moves to SF and Warrick starts at PF, done deal. The Suns' loyalty to Hill is appropriate, but it's tying their hands.

 

[Chaplin]

I agree. It's sad to say, but the problem would solve itself if Hill were to ask for a trade to a contender. Then Turkoglu moves to SF and Warrick starts at PF, done deal. The Suns' loyalty to Hill is appropriate, but it's tying their hands.

I hate to say it, but I agree. Even something as simple as him volunteering to go to the bench would be a huge positive for the team. As it stands, nobody is saying a word about Hill NOT starting. I've heard rumbling about Hedo at the 3, but nothing about what Hill would do.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I hate to say it, but I agree. Even something as simple as him volunteering to go to the bench would be a huge positive for the team. As it stands, nobody is saying a word about Hill NOT starting. I've heard rumbling about Hedo at the 3, but nothing about what Hill would do.

Unfortunately, as I'm sure you recall, Hill has been much more productive with the Suns as a starter, and was pretty ineffective off the bench. Ideally, the best option would be to start Warrick as a pick and roll foil to Nash, and then bring Turk off the bench to help facilitate when Nash isn't on the floor, but we all know that ain't happening, even if Turk played 25-30 a game anyway.

 

[Chaplin]

Unfortunately, as I'm sure you recall, Hill has been much more productive with the Suns as a starter, and was pretty ineffective off the bench. Ideally, the best option would be to start Warrick as a pick and roll foil to Nash, and then bring Turk off the bench to help facilitate when Nash isn't on the floor, but we all know that ain't happening, even if Turk played 25-30 a game anyway.

I know that--but think about it: Does what we lose with Hill coming from the bench outweigh what we would gain if Hedo was at the 3? I think Hedo at the 3 should be more of a priority and help us to win games.

 

[Vellasco]

Hedo Turkoglu's last season with the Magic he would start off at 3PT line (and could go both left and right equally) and get a pick up top, drive, and kick out to the 3PT shooters (Pietrus, Lewis, C Lee, Nelson, etc.). He can penetrate all the way to basket but is hot'n'cold there (the games I saw).


He's not money from the post area but has a nice fadeaway shot and can also go 1 on 1 (near end of games) where's he going to make that Steve Nash pull up jumpshot (that Nash makes off a bigman switch). He also will push the ball up court a lot off a rebound but most of you already know that.


Most of the games I watched were the Playoff games that year but also watched the Suns/magic; Suns/raptors games of the last 2 years and magic/blazers regular season. I watched about 11-12 total. He's a nice player but I believe he only played PF one game and only for a few minutes. I'd still prefer him at the 3


I was hoping to watch magic/celtics game 7 (he had a monster game statwise) but it wasn't available to me


and most of his passes to Dwight Howard were alley-ops off a post-up from Howard or Dwights back a player down where he feed em the ball inside over the top. I'm not sure how that'd go with the current Suns players though lol

http://www.timsah.com/Hidonun-kariyerindeki-en-iyi-mac/n00TVS5qkHv

a bit low resolution but it can give you an idea. Btw, there is no any alley-ops with D12 in there.

 

[Vellasco]

What a disappointment. I wanted to know some details of just how Hedo is going to do his facilitating on this team. What did he do the year he was touted for his 'facilitating'? I didn't pay any attention to him that year so I have no idea what he did. Was a particular player the primary beneficiary of his facilitating? Who? Is he able to hang out at the 3pt line and make plays from there? Can he work his magic posting at one of the elbows or do it along the baseline? Roam around and do it hither and thither? I can imagine him using his height at SF to pass into the low post but at PF, that doesn't seem promising. BTW, Hedo had to have figured out that the Suns were likely to want him to play PF - having a big hole at that position and being a team known for playing smaller players there. Heck, most everyone in here expected it.

Here's something odd - I checked Hedo's assists for all his years and last year as a non-facilitator in Toronto he made them at the same rate as his best years in Orlando - he played fewer minutes so fewer per game.

I bet he is hearing you:

He never has run this much or needed as many reminders to shoot, such as the one coach Alvin Gentry gave him after Sunday's practice.
Picture Turkoglu's dilemma. He heads downcourt, with a team moving at a faster pace than he has run, and naturally looks to take his left lane, only to find Grant Hilland Jason Richardsonfilling the wing alleys. He spots up for a kick-out from Steve Nashbut uncharacteristically hesitates without a defender nearby.
"I'm so open," said Turkoglu, who has made four of 21 preseason shots (including one of eight 3-pointers). "I think, 'Damn, should I take this shot? It's the first pass. Or should I drive and kick?' As time goes by, I will learn that's a good shot because Steve drew my man and passed."
After a career of getting screens, he now sets them for Nash and learns the nuances of rolls and pops.
Turkoglu will take more hits on screens and defense than in the past, when he had only spot duty at power forward.
"I'm learning the defensive rules - showing, getting back, switching, denying, getting in front, pushing, getting the rebound, helping weak side, switching with the (big men)," Turkoglu said. "Those kind of things, I never did before."
Turkoglu was not acquired for his defense but has yet to display his offensive versatility. His shot is off, and he has four assists in 64 minutes. Still, the starters have fared well together.
"It could take the whole season really to get comfortable, but I'm sure we'll play at a pretty good level shortly," Nash said. "I feel really confident playing with him."


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...uns-notebook-hedo-turkoglu.html#ixzz12AmGIrS0​

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I know that--but think about it: Does what we lose with Hill coming from the bench outweigh what we would gain if Hedo was at the 3? I think Hedo at the 3 should be more of a priority and help us to win games.

Well, as you can see by my response, I agree, either Hill to the bench, or Hedo in a Manu like role. (Which I think is best anyway)

 

[Superbone]

I don't "plan to panic".

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't "plan to panic".

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Steve