Players you'd trade three 1st round picks for. . .

[Russ Smith]

So you're saying that in 35 years America's top athletes have gotten bigger and heavier? I'm shocked.

I think guys cheat in college. There is a lot of benefit to the untalented student-athlete to get bigger by any means necessary, and not everyone is meant to be that big.

But at the NFL level I think there's much, much greater efficiency in identifying the Michael Oher types in the wild, and there are more nutritionists and supplement dealers who are able to "naturally" help these kids put on weight.

I just think that when you narrow the field from thousands and thousands of student athletes every year down to the 800 or so NFL rookies, you end up screening out the vast majority of roided-up guys and get a lot of elite physical specimens who have crazy speed to strength profiles.

So why do so many present and former players insist PED use is rampant?

In 35 years we went from the heaviest player in a draft being 272 to the lightest player being 298. That's not all nutrition and supplements.

I do agree there's more cheating in college but part of that is obvious, there are more than twice as many players on every college team as there are in the NFL, and there are lots more college teams than NFL players so the pool of players is much higher.

 

[GatorAZ]

Cutler has never had his teammates rip him like Rodgers has. Rodgers routinely rips into his guys if you watch. He also wanders off when things are going poorly. I don't know why Rodgers is given a pass, but some guys just are. Two years I asked an NFL offensive tackle who the hardest guy was to block, and he said Julius Peppers, but only in primetime. Also said Clay Matthews is overhyped. Yells "play is away" and "I'm out" on run plays away from him.

There's a difference between ripping and embarrassing your teammates. Brady, Brees and Manning all jaw with their own guys. All that stuff Jennings said seemed liked he was bitter GB didn't pay him.

 

[kerouac9]

So why do so many present and former players insist PED use is rampant?

In 35 years we went from the heaviest player in a draft being 272 to the lightest player being 298. That's not all nutrition and supplements.

I do agree there's more cheating in college but part of that is obvious, there are more than twice as many players on every college team as there are in the NFL, and there are lots more college teams than NFL players so the pool of players is much higher.

No, it's not all nutrition and supplements. A lot of it is "sports culture" calcifying and going into the inner cities and elsewhere to identify guys who would've been freakish four decades ago.

 

[Chopper0080]

There's a difference between ripping and embarrassing your teammates. Brady, Brees and Manning all jaw with their own guys. All that stuff Jennings said seemed liked he was bitter GB didn't pay him.

Jennings...

Donald Driver

Jeff Saturday, though he was just there for one year

 

[Darkside]

I want my QB up in dude's faces. They make bank, they better lead both by example and verbally. Neither Manning nor Brady are all that nice to their teammates. If anything they're harder on them than even the coach at times. Kurt Warner got cranky in his old age. He was always ripping out his mouthpiece after plays, spit flying, chewing someone's ass.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[Darkside]

In fact, the only real difference between those QB's and Jay Cutler is that he doesn't have a SB ring. Well, that and he just isn't as good as those guys. Lol. But attitude-wise. Even Brees gets after dudes.

(Edit: please add a delete post "feature". It's ridiculous not to have one, this isn't the 80s)



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[Russ Smith]

No, it's not all nutrition and supplements. A lot of it is "sports culture" calcifying and going into the inner cities and elsewhere to identify guys who would've been freakish four decades ago.

I agree that there are more black players now . But the NFL wasn't discriminating against blacks in the late 70's as linemen or CB's or WR's, it was largely at QB. I can tell you one obvious reason why that has nothing to do with inner cities and that's the influx of Pacific Islanders(Samoans etc) who tend to all be 300+ in the NFL. In general IMO Guys got bigger because of training regimens and those include PED's more often than not.

Again that comment about weight was from Gil Brandt who was an NFL GM and has been paying attention to stuff like that for years now. He didn't even hesitate when asked to explain it, he said PED's.


The increase from the late 70's to now was not due to them selecting bigger players because the biggest players were still MUCH smaller than guys today.
Hell the following link says the average weight of NFL offensive linemen jumped from 272 pounds to 300 pounds in one decade! 28 pounds in 10 years and that's after a trendline that showed weights increasing 10-12 pounds every decade, it suddenly nearly tripled in one decade.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-50s-tim-tebow-would-have-been-an-offensive-lineman-2011-10?op=1

OL's are actually getting smaller now, Dallas once had 4 guys over 340 on the OL now their biggest is 330. They're looking for more movement so guys either had to lose weight or find a new job. HGH is a big factor in that too guys get stronger and leaner at the same time.

If you want to believe there's not much PED use in the NFL feel free, you're in the very small minority who thinks so. Again lots of ex players admit that, I'll keep adding that eventually you might address it.

 

[desertdawg]

3 first rounders since the new deal has been in place?? It aint happening.

 

[Darkside]

I agree that there are more black players now . But the NFL wasn't discriminating against blacks in the late 70's as linemen or CB's or WR's, it was largely at QB. I can tell you one obvious reason why that has nothing to do with inner cities and that's the influx of Pacific Islanders(Samoans etc) who tend to all be 300+ in the NFL. In general IMO Guys got bigger because of training regimens and those include PED's more often than not.

Again that comment about weight was from Gil Brandt who was an NFL GM and has been paying attention to stuff like that for years now. He didn't even hesitate when asked to explain it, he said PED's.


The increase from the late 70's to now was not due to them selecting bigger players because the biggest players were still MUCH smaller than guys today.
Hell the following link says the average weight of NFL offensive linemen jumped from 272 pounds to 300 pounds in one decade! 28 pounds in 10 years and that's after a trendline that showed weights increasing 10-12 pounds every decade, it suddenly nearly tripled in one decade.

http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-50s-tim-tebow-would-have-been-an-offensive-lineman-2011-10?op=1

OL's are actually getting smaller now, Dallas once had 4 guys over 340 on the OL now their biggest is 330. They're looking for more movement so guys either had to lose weight or find a new job. HGH is a big factor in that too guys get stronger and leaner at the same time.

If you want to believe there's not much PED use in the NFL feel free, you're in the very small minority who thinks so. Again lots of ex players admit that, I'll keep adding that eventually you might address it.

Dude, black or white doesn't matter, everyone has gotten bigger. Peyton Manning could have played linebacker 50 years ago. And the fact is, humans in general have gotten a lot bigger and taller as a population in the last 100 years. Ever see a dinner plate from the 1950's? It's what you'd call a saucer nowdays. Wife and I bought a house several years ago and everything seemed normal, but when we moved in we literally couldn't fit our dinner plates in the cabinets because they were built in the 60's. Literally couldn't fit them in the cabinets. Google the sizes, it's easy to find and easy to see.

http://www.unmcphysicians.com/whats-new/2013/june/healthyeatinghome.aspx

People are huge now and have been growing for thousands of years, but in America, specifically, we have grown exponentially in the past 100. Most people think we've just grown sideways but that's not true. If you get an athlete eating like that there's no reason they can't use natural supplements to put that weight to use. To suggest otherwise is to suggest HGH and the rest make them also grow taller. Obviously, that's not the case. We are naturally bigger/taller humans.

I'm not suggesting steroids and HGH aren't prevalent in football, I'm quite sure they are. But I also don't think it's fair to label them all that way, or only the great ones.

 

[AZCrazy]

Size started expanding exponentially when salaries began expanding exponentially. Guys are a lot more willing to risk the physical damage and stigma of getting caught if the paycheck has a few more zeroes than they ever imagined in their lives.

 

[Seandonic]

There are no non QB's worth three first round picks.

 

[sunsfan88]

Non QB? JJ Watt. Easily.

He's the best defensive player on the planet and nobody is even close. Oh and he's barely 25 years old.

 

[sunsfan88]

Jennings...

Donald Driver

Jeff Saturday, though he was just there for one year

Jennings was bitter cause the Packers didn't pay him.

What did Driver and Saturday say?

 

[Russ Smith]

Dude, black or white doesn't matter, everyone has gotten bigger. Peyton Manning could have played linebacker 50 years ago. And the fact is, humans in general have gotten a lot bigger and taller as a population in the last 100 years. Ever see a dinner plate from the 1950's? It's what you'd call a saucer nowdays. Wife and I bought a house several years ago and everything seemed normal, but when we moved in we literally couldn't fit our dinner plates in the cabinets because they were built in the 60's. Literally couldn't fit them in the cabinets. Google the sizes, it's easy to find and easy to see.

http://www.unmcphysicians.com/whats-new/2013/june/healthyeatinghome.aspx

People are huge now and have been growing for thousands of years, but in America, specifically, we have grown exponentially in the past 100. Most people think we've just grown sideways but that's not true. If you get an athlete eating like that there's no reason they can't use natural supplements to put that weight to use. To suggest otherwise is to suggest HGH and the rest make them also grow taller. Obviously, that's not the case. We are naturally bigger/taller humans.

I'm not suggesting steroids and HGH aren't prevalent in football, I'm quite sure they are. But I also don't think it's fair to label them all that way, or only the great ones.

Last time I checked 1979 to 2014 is 35 years not 100!

How much have people grown in the last 35 years, give me a percentage. I think you'll find that the average sized American has not increased anywhere near as much in the last 35 years as the average sized NFL player has.

Pro sports has always selectively chosen the "freaks", you have to be bigger or stronger or faster to make it in the NFL or NBA, it's always been that way. K9 said innercity, I made the leap that he was talking about black players and pointed out the primary change there is at QB. The NFL has for quite some time had tons of black CB's, WR's, OL's, DL's etc, the main difference has been at QB. Logan Thomas wouldn't have been a QB, in 1979, he'd have been moved to another position, same with Newton and some others. They'd still likely have made the NFL just not at QB.

In a 10 year period from the 1980's to the 1990's the average weight of an NFL OL went from 272 to 300, and the average height stayed the same. So same position, same height but in 10 years the average weight went up 28 pounds. That's pretty substantial.

Not sure if you actually read my post since you implied I'm blaming HGH for players weighing more, they don't use HGH to put on bulk they use it to get stronger while "leaning out." They LOSE weight while using HGH.

I didn't label all the players on PED's, I just said "experts" say that about 50% of the linemen in the NFL are on or have been on them. Since JJ Watt is a linemen he's automatically a possibility and when you add in he was 207 pounds as a HS junior and 295 when he left Wisconsin and he gained 45 pounds in his first year there(as a RS), he goes on a list of people that you can reasonably guess might have used PED's. He might not have he might be one of those people who as he said matured later. He didn't start working out seriously until the summer before his senior year of HS, he went from 207 to 235 in one year working with a trainer for the first time. I can completely believe that. In one year at Central Michigan working with trainers, and him working with his own, he gained 10 more pounds. Then in one year at Wisconsin he gained 45 more, that's where alarms start to go off in my head.
Note this is from his own admissions of how his body developed. He may in fact be clean but based on strictly odds, it's unlikely.

 

[Russ Smith]

Taken from http://mddirect.org/tag/ped/

"College seems to be the place where football players grow larger and their size has become the focus of medical study. Researchers from Oklahoma State University followed football players over the course of their college career and found that linemen’s weight increased by only 3% but at the same time their body fat dropped from 22.5% to 20.6%. Their strength increased by almost 20% but in exchange, they became a little slower. Skill players, like running and defensive backs had a larger weight gain of 9%, they became more just a little more lean, dropping their body fat on average to 8.1% and their strength also increased."

"So how do college players get larger? The Associated Press scoured records from all 120 schools that played in The Football Championship Division, the top tier of college football over an 11 year period. While they weren’t scientists, their data had validity. They found that of 61,000 players reviewed, more than 4,700 had gained more than 20 pounds in a single season. According to the National Center for Drug Free sport, that amount of weight gain should raise suspicion for the use of performance enhancing drugs and yet the number of football players who test positive for steroids and PEDs range between ¼ and a little more than ½ percent. However, the question that could not be answered from the AP review was whether the weight gain was due to fat or lean muscle.

And the trend begins in high school football, more than a decade earlier. Researchers looked at the height and weight of Parade All American football players from 1963 to 1983. Their average height increased by four inches to 6’5” and their average weight went from 213 pounds to 268 pounds. The reason for the rapid growth was not completely clear, though the authors suggested the following: “data do raise questions as to what portion of these gains can be attributed to improved nutrition and training techniques and what portion may be the result of use of performance-enhancing drugs such as anabolic steroids.” (Wang, M. Q., Downey, G. S., Perko, M. A., & Yesalis, C. E. (1993). Changes in Body Size of Elite High School Football Players: 1963 – 1989. Perceptual and Motor Skills, 76, 379-383.)"