Playoffs: Suns @ Nuggets Monday game thread 5-1-2023- Game 2

[Raindog]

The Suns depth issues are the price paid for years and years of pissing away the draft under Sarver. Even without making the Durant trade, we still had shaky depth at best.

Really the Suns have made a wholesale practice of not trying to scout or coach up almost any young talent practically the entire last two decades under Sarver. That has left them continually without developed depth (or tradeable assets) that they have attempted to compensate for by digging through the NBA scrap heap. It's no wonder they have been consistently behind the eight ball on the bench even after they began to build a talented starting group. And Jones and Monty have definitely not helped by continually disregarding that aspect either.

That is something that particularly needs to be changed under Ishbia. We are seeing where it gets us year after year in the playoffs.

 

[Hoop Head]

One positive is I bet we can resign Okogie for cheap, if we want to. Any fears of him getting the full Midevel Exception should be dissuaded.

 

[Phrazbit]

Sadly, I think this is true.

I disagree. When healthy, even this year, we had one of the best records in the league.

Jones had done a good job of building a true contender despite not having a “unicorn” on the roster.

We traded for a “unicorn” guy, paid the unicorn price but it turns out Booker was a unicorn all along and we don’t have the parts to help.

Elite 3 point shooters who can also defend are an extremely valuable commodity, and Bridges is more than that.

Durant needs to justify his status as an all time great, that is the price we paid.

I really have a hard time believing a healthy version of the Suns from February wouldn’t have ran away with this game.

 

[GatorAZ]

Because even when he plays well you get guys in here screaming he sucks.

Never mind our bench scored 4 points tonight yeah 4!

Never mind CP3 is hurt again. Who could of ever seen that coming

Never mind KD was god awful tonight and couldn’t buy a shot for most of the game m

Never mind 6-29 from 3

But here we are with pages of Ayton sucks.

That’s another defense of Ayton that everyone else sucked around him. I want the defense of DA to be that he was the solution, or that he was extraordinary. I understand that he doesn’t have the “extraordinary gene” but man can we do better than the typical 0 blocks, 0 steaks 0 free throws but it’s okay if he goes for 17-9?

 

[Big Al]

The only way you can justify keeping Ayton is if you fire Monty and Mark Bryant and hire someone who wants to develop him the way he’s been asking to be developed for years.

He’s still 24 and has all the athletic ability in the world. He is not hopeless.

yeah I would be ok replacing the coaching staff, I don’t think they are getting the job done.

I would absolutely be OK with getting rid of Jones, Monty, and Byrant. Then get a head coach & big man coach who can help develop Ayton and his game. Ayton probably was a later starter in basketball. He needs a teaching & instructional coach & he's still young. And it's kinda sad to be at this point but Ayton has the size, athletic ability, tools & skills but they just need to be withdrawn and displayed on the court by him. We have 5 years invested in him so we need a return. I don't believe Monty is the right coach for Ayton. I don't want to send him packing for next to nothing trade of underachieving bench players to team like the Celtics or Lakers and then he becomes what we envision him to be there.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

We may have seen the last of CP3 in a Suns uniform. I have mixed emotions about that

Ditto

I think he gave us all he had. Can’t fault him for being old or hurt.

 

[GatorAZ]

Ishbia is probably fuming right now. Granted he initiated the blockbuster trade but he’s not firing himself. If a coach flames out three years in a row he’s gone. That’s the business.

 

[Raindog]

I would absolutely be OK with getting rid of Jones, Monty, and Byrant. Then get a head coach & big man coach who can help develop Ayton and his game. Ayton probably was a later starter in basketball. He needs a teaching & instructional coach & he's still young. And it's kinda sad to be at this point but Ayton has the size, athletic ability, tools & skills but they just need to be withdrawn and displayed on the court by him. We have 5 years invested in him so we need a return. I don't believe Monty is the right coach for Ayton. I don't want to send him packing for next to nothing trade of underachieving bench players to team like the Celtics or Lakers and then he becomes what we envision him to be there.

I agree. I think there is still a chance he could be developed into at least something better than what he currently is, with some real coaching. It's by no means a guarantee, and it may turn out that ultimately he does lack the motivation. But the coaching he has received thus far in his career is suspect at best, and it's worth seeing if someone else could possibly light the fire under him. If not, then at least you know for sure and can comfortably move on.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Because even when he plays well you get guys in here screaming he sucks.

Never mind our bench scored 4 points tonight yeah 4!

Never mind CP3 is hurt again. Who could of ever seen that coming

Never mind KD was god awful tonight and couldn’t buy a shot for most of the game m

Never mind 6-29 from 3

But here we are with pages of Ayton sucks.

Team Ayton is like driving on the I-10 after Blythe.

It's a lonely patch but I am hoping to see Cabazon soon

 

[Phrazbit]

Banned again.

I don't know when you are going to stop but it is not going to be allowed.

@cheesebeef probably should have expressed the notion differently, but there are a few posters who frequent the cards board but only pop in here to trash on the suns when things are darkest… they also coincidentally seem to be Laker fans.

Some, like @Brian in Mesa handle the delicate balance well… others, less so.

 

[TJ]

I would absolutely be OK with getting rid of Jones, Monty, and Byrant. Then get a head coach & big man coach who can help develop Ayton and his game. Ayton probably was a later starter in basketball. He needs a teaching & instructional coach & he's still young. And it's kinda sad to be at this point but Ayton has the size, athletic ability, tools & skills but they just need to be withdrawn and displayed on the court by him. We have 5 years invested in him so we need a return. I don't believe Monty is the right coach for Ayton. I don't want to send him packing for next to nothing trade of underachieving bench players to team like the Celtics or Lakers and then he becomes what we envision him to be there.

Ayton didnt pick up a basketball until he was a teenager. Believe it or not, his first love was soccer.

I mean I agree with everything you said. He’s not a lost cause despite what some here posit. However, there are a number of unanswered questions:

1) Who is the coach next season?
2) Will said coach (Monty or whomever) be able to integrate Ayton, Booker and KD into the same offense?
3) What level of patience will the fans have of another year of Ayton, especially if it’s a new coach?
4) Does Ayton even want to be in Phoenix anymore or would he prefer a fresh start elsewhere?

There cannot be another offseason where this isn’t addressed. This has been such a nightmare, especially the past two off seasons.

 

[Hoop Head]

Ayton didnt pick up a basketball until he was a teenager. Believe it or not, his first love was soccer.

I'm so tired of this excuse for Ayton. He's not the first person to start playing basketball when he was a teenager. Joel Embiid, arguably the second best player in the game the last 3 years, didn't start playing basketball until he was 15. How old was Ayton when he started? Younger than 15 since he started before high school. There's been more pressure on Embiid than Ayton and Ayton hasn't had to overcome the physical challenges Embiid has.

That's 1 guy but there's plenty more. Ayton isnt on his rookie deal anymore, hes been in the league for 5 years and has over 10 years of basketball under his belt. The "he found the game late" stuff is nonsense.

 

[Finito]

That’s another defense of Ayton that everyone else sucked around him. I want the defense of DA to be that he was the solution, or that he was extraordinary. I understand that he doesn’t have the “extraordinary gene” but man can we do better than the typical 0 blocks, 0 steaks 0 free throws but it’s okay if he goes for 17-9?

You know what’s the craziest stat I’ve ever seen. We took 5 free throws in this game. The whole team combined for 5 free throws

 

[Finito]

Team Ayton is like driving on the I-10 after Blythe.

It's a lonely patch but I am hoping to see Cabazon soon

Ha I make that drive all the damn time.

 

[GatorAZ]

You know what’s the craziest stat I’ve ever seen. We took 5 free throws in this game. The whole team combined for 5 free throws

Pretty gross.

 

[GatorAZ]

We may have seen the last of CP3 in a Suns uniform. I have mixed emotions about that

He’s averaging more shots than points this postseason. Nothing emotional about it.

 

[dscher]

I'm so tired of this excuse for Ayton. He's not the first person to start playing basketball when he was a teenager. Joel Embiid, arguably the second best player in the game the last 3 years, didn't start playing basketball until he was 15. How old was Ayton when he started? Younger than 15 since he started before high school. There's been more pressure on Embiid than Ayton and Ayton hasn't had to overcome the physical challenges Embiid has.

That's 1 guy but there's plenty more. Ayton isnt on his rookie deal anymore, hes been in the league for 5 years and has over 10 years of basketball under his belt. The "he found the game late" stuff is nonsense.

Some people just realllllly like Tucson.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Ha I make that drive all the damn time.

Same.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

I don't have a ton invested in these players, but would like to see the suns advance and do well

There have been some common issues from what I see.

The lack of motion on offense is really bad. Even when they get the ball to where the defense collapses, there is no one moving.

If Durant gets to the paint and the defense helps and stops him, everyone in the perimeter watches until the point he's stopped and then will flash open for a pass.

It's like a reset, instead of an actual motion offense where you work movement and passing to create mismatches and good shots

There were a lot of really bad looks that were forced either due to the shot clock or something similar

The depth isn't great and doesn't know their role - just really disjointed - a good amount of effort, but really with no direction for that effort

Ayton was really poor tonight. He seemed like he was in a fog. Just a beat or two behind the play. Bad positioning, bad reading of the play, bad decision making - especially in the defensive side.

When stressed to need to read and make a choice, he almost always chose the last favorable option and did it really slowly

I was hopeful and not as doom and gloom as what I was hearing on the national broadcasts

However, this one was there for the taking. On the road to even it up. Just fell apart. I'm not sure I see a path forward for them.

 

[DJ Tabooh]

I disagree. When healthy, even this year, we had one of the best records in the league.

Jones had done a good job of building a true contender despite not having a “unicorn” on the roster.

We traded for a “unicorn” guy, paid the unicorn price but it turns out Booker was a unicorn all along and we don’t have the parts to help.

Elite 3 point shooters who can also defend are an extremely valuable commodity, and Bridges is more than that.

Durant needs to justify his status as an all time great, that is the price we paid.

I really have a hard time believing a healthy version of the Suns from February wouldn’t have ran away with this game.

Agreed. Book has been playing out of his mind…he’s special. But in the 4th, he has spent so much energy trying to carry us that every miss was short.

We really missed a golden opportunity tonight. To give up 97 points and have Murray shoot 3/15 probably won’t happen again.

Game 3 is the season. Must win. Will be curious to see how we play Friday. Denver is beatable but the margin of error is slim.

KD still doesn’t seem 100 percent. He missed a lot of shots he usually makes and his handle isn’t as crisp as it was in the beginning of the year with the Nets.

 

[Big Al]

Because even when he plays well you get guys in here screaming he sucks.

Never mind our bench scored 4 points tonight yeah 4!

Never mind CP3 is hurt again. Who could of ever seen that coming

Never mind KD was god awful tonight and couldn’t buy a shot for most of the game m

Never mind 6-29 from 3

But here we are with pages of Ayton sucks.

Ayton probably would welcome a change of scenery in a trade. He has taken a boat load of criticism here in Phoenix and as some was earned and some not so much. It may be his easy going personality & his own overvaluation of his skills that makes him such a target. Players come and go as it is a business. He is the Suns biggest trade chip. We are not going to get anything from those underachieving & less talented bench players on the Suns. I still have hope for Ayton though.

 

[wagonmound464]

Trade away our useless bench pg's and others,,, then get a real pg like Tyrese Maxey
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[Mainstreet]

I disagree. When healthy, even this year, we had one of the best records in the league.

Jones had done a good job of building a true contender despite not having a “unicorn” on the roster.

We traded for a “unicorn” guy, paid the unicorn price but it turns out Booker was a unicorn all along and we don’t have the parts to help.

Elite 3 point shooters who can also defend are an extremely valuable commodity, and Bridges is more than that.

Durant needs to justify his status as an all time great, that is the price we paid.

I really have a hard time believing a healthy version of the Suns from February wouldn’t have ran away with this game.

I'm not sure where we disagree. The worth of a team is determined in the playoffs.

James Jones did a good job of building a contender through the last two seasons until it fail apart in game 7 of the playoff series against the Mavericks.

This season, the Suns didn't build off last season's success, which was a mistake. They never replaced Jae Crowder and had an open roster spot until they moved Ish Wainright to the 15-man roster. Phoenix never satisfactorily replaced Dario Saric.

The Nuggets kept building on their roster.

I didn't think there was much doubt Devin Booker is a unicorn.

The weakness in James Jones approach this season is he didn't improve the existing roster, and seemed focused on obtaining Kevin Durant at all costs. Mat Ishbia helped this along.

I wouldn't have made the trade for Durant but that's me. The cost was too high.

The Suns were not that far away from contending that a couple of rotation players wouldn't have helped. For example, The Suns might have been able to trade for Reggie Jackson or Bones Hyland plus a rotation power forward if they were not locked in on an aging and sometimes injured superstar.

A couple of cracks that appeared in the Suns wall awhile back which came back to haunt them was the signing and extending of Landry Shamet and the 2020 draft.

Josh Okogie, Ish Wainright, Damion Lee, Bizmack Biyombo, Jock Landale, Cam Payne, Landry Shamet, Terrence Ross, Darius Bazley and TJ Warren are not the things championship dreams are made of.

 

[Fumats20]

The Suns FO can pick all the talent they & the fans want but the problem is the real boss man, the coach, Monty, will not use or develop them. Monty can only coach stars who coach themselves. And you can only saturate your team with a couple of stars since stars are not role players who take limited shots.

Monty & the FO are two separate entities with two separate philosophies. When the coach is winning nobody cares how he does it.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I disagree. When healthy, even this year, we had one of the best records in the league.

Jones had done a good job of building a true contender despite not having a “unicorn” on the roster.

We traded for a “unicorn” guy, paid the unicorn price but it turns out Booker was a unicorn all along and we don’t have the parts to help.

Elite 3 point shooters who can also defend are an extremely valuable commodity, and Bridges is more than that.

Durant needs to justify his status as an all time great, that is the price we paid.

I really have a hard time believing a healthy version of the Suns from February wouldn’t have ran away with this game.

“Ran away?” Not sure about that, but we would’ve won this game, even with Ayton’s disappearing act once again.

My only hope here is that this team just hasn’t had enough time playing together and is so out of sync and uncomfortable due to the limited time on court together, that KD is rendered a virtual non-factor.
I think any hope of this team figuring it out as they play more post season games, is clearly wishful thinking and in the end, false hope.

What really has be stumped is how tired (old?) KD looks. I mean, he missed half the damn season this year??