Plummer sets Bronco record

[Russ Smith]

Good analysis here.

When Jake was here, the defense was just as bad if not worse than it is now, as was the offensive line.

It just shows you how stats are misleading. I doubt he's playing any better now than he did for us, but the stats are much better, because he's put in better situations. Yet many here were on his case back in 2001-2002, and now the national media and Bronco fans are all over his jock.

Go figure.

You've got to give Shanahan credit for seeing diamonds in the rough - he consistently is able to do it (Maurice Clarett aside).

This is where I disagree, you can't seriously look at the TD to INT ratio here, and now and think that Jake isn't playing any better it's just the situation around him?

This offseason Jake did a very revealing interview with a Denver writer where he said among other things he was growing his hair out in memory of Pat Tillman, and that he'd grown up quite a bit in Denver. He flat out admitted that he didn't put in the necessary effort in Arizona, he said he used to run foosball and video game tournaments at his house, now he has no time for that because he's watching films, attending workouts, doing QB camp with the Broncos.

Shanahan and Kubiak have worked miracles and jake has made an amazing turnaround as a player. He's completely different now, he throws the ball away more in any game now than he did in a season here, most of their plays have the primary option, the run option, and then if neither is there, throw it away. He's having a terrific year and is a legitimate MVP candidate and it's all because Denver finally got him to commit to become a good QB. Sure that says our coaches couldn't get that out of him, but that's as much on HIM as it was on our OC's and coaches because quite frankly you can't make a player improve if he doesn't feel he needs to.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ: No comment?

Jake has had the tools, he just doesn't have to worry about doing everything the way he did here.

He has gone 7 straight games without an INT. Did he ever play seven games in a season without an INT in the desert?

It took him into his 4th NFL season to go TWO games in a row without a pick so no he never came close to doing that here. It's an amazing run.

 

[conraddobler]

It took him into his 4th NFL season to go TWO games in a row without a pick so no he never came close to doing that here. It's an amazing run.

All it really proves is that our coaches and organization stank at the time he was here.

I am guessing somewhere in his overpaid years here if someone had said sit down and watch the team lose because you didn't prepare well enough, that he might have got the idea and listened more.

Our coaches have always been either too desperate or too incompetent to do that.

Honestly he must not be stupid, the one place in the universe any QB should want to go is to Denver the land of milk, honey and the eternal run game.

 

[Russ Smith]

All it really proves is that our coaches and organization stank at the time he was here.

I am guessing somewhere in his overpaid years here if someone had said sit down and watch the team lose because you didn't prepare well enough, that he might have got the idea and listened more.

Our coaches have always been either too desperate or too incompetent to do that.

Honestly he must not be stupid, the one place in the universe any QB should want to go is to Denver the land of milk, honey and the eternal run game.

Yes and no, everytime we have a thread like this people come out and say it was all the coaches, Jake would have done this here if we had better coaches. The guy had played 6 seasons at QB before Denver got him and it still took them 2 full seasons to get this kind of play out of him this year. It's a lot easier to convince a 30 year old QB who's hoping to get his roster bonus that if you don't put in the work and stop throwing INT's, you're not going to be our QB. With the Cards he had a huge fan base who had watched him at ASU, watched him in the 98 season, and were behind Jake no matter what. He had a huge contract, and no reasonable backup to push him, there was simply no leverage for a Cards coach. I used to say this over and over at the time does anybody really think Tobin or mac could have just benched Jake? Just imagine the uproar, and imagine the financial impact of having your highest paid guy on the bench for Dave Brown, Griesen, Josh etc. Wasn't going to happen, and Jake knew that.

The mistake to me was the Cards gave Jake the money too soon and he took that as a get out of jail free card.

 

[CardLogic]

Russ has made a ASFN career on the topic of Jake Plummer. Consequently, he is right on target with his assessment of Jake. Jake grew up; it took him a while but credit to him for doing it.

I believe a lot of Jake's change in attitude/play is due to how he has been impacted by the life and death of Pat Tillman...

Good for Jake!

Too bad I hate the stinkin' Broncos!!!

 

[BigRedMO]

Russ has made a ASFN career on the topic of Jake Plummer. Consequently, he is right on target with his assessment of Jake. Jake grew up; it took him a while but credit to him for doing it.

I believe a lot of Jake's change in attitude/play is due to how he has been impacted by the life and death of Pat Tillman...

Good for Jake!

Too bad I hate the stinkin' Broncos!!!

Jake Plummer got coaching and players around him. He could have done the same thing had he been supported and coached in AZ. Unless you know him on a personal level how can you comment on his maturity? To question his maturity without knowing the guy is a major insult to him that has no basis to support the claim. The Cardinals blew it with Plummer.

It took 2 years to undo all the damage the Cardinals had done to him. Based on his performance in Denver he got no coaching in AZ.

 

[Russ Smith]

Jake Plummer got coaching and players around him. He could have done the same thing had he been supported and coached in AZ. Unless you know him on a personal level how can you comment on his maturity? To question his maturity without knowing the guy is a major insult to him that has no basis to support the claim. The Cardinals blew it with Plummer.

Jake admitted it himself each of the last 2 years.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

On coachspeak a minute ago, Parcells eluded to PLummer and that he was essentially bad before b/c he only threw 39 times in his career at AZ when the Cards were winning.

39 times? That seems way off...but thats what Parcells said

 

[Assface]

On coachspeak a minute ago, Parcells eluded to PLummer and that he was essentially bad before b/c he only threw 39 times in his career at AZ when the Cards were winning.

39 times? That seems way off...but thats what Parcells said

I think it's because we were never winning.

 

[Duckjake]

On coachspeak a minute ago, Parcells eluded to PLummer and that he was essentially bad before b/c he only threw 39 times in his career at AZ when the Cards were winning.

39 times? That seems way off...but thats what Parcells said

Didn't the Cards go 3 or 4 years without scoring a TD on their opening drive?

Or was that in the first quarter? I remember the day they finally did score and the huge celebration that followed.

 

[Russ Smith]

On coachspeak a minute ago, Parcells eluded to PLummer and that he was essentially bad before b/c he only threw 39 times in his career at AZ when the Cards were winning.

39 times? That seems way off...but thats what Parcells said

He was probably exaggerating to make a point. Last year even with the lead Jake threw picks, it's only this year that he's stopped doing that.

All QB's are better when ahead and Jake was directly involved in why we were always behind.

NOte, I don't deny at all that Shanahan and Kubiak are better coaches than Jake had here, that his OL is better, that his RB's are better etc. But even with all that it was just LAST season that Jake single handedly cost the Broncos home field advantage by blowing 2-3 games with silly picks. And this year with the same coaches he's got only 3 picks.

Last year Shanahan took away the pass/run option because several times Jake came up to the line, should have read run, but instead read pass and threw a critical INT, cost them 2 games doing that. To this day he hasn't given that play option back to Jake. Not saying Jake can't audible, just that they had specific plays where you come to the line, check the safety and if he's up you throw, if he's back you run, and Shanahan took that play away because Jake repeatedly made the wrong read and threw a pick.

I still don't know if anybody including Denver can possibly have a good enough run game to win a Superbowl the way they are playing but it'll be an interesting test. They are winning because they're not turning the ball over and they're not doing that because Jake is no longer forcing balls to try and make plays.

We throw the ball ~ 40 times a game we're the absolute worst situation for a guy like Jake he'd have thrown 20+ picks each of the last 2 years if we'd have kept him.

 

[CardLogic]

Jake Plummer got coaching and players around him. He could have done the same thing had he been supported and coached in AZ. Unless you know him on a personal level how can you comment on his maturity? To question his maturity without knowing the guy is a major insult to him that has no basis to support the claim. The Cardinals blew it with Plummer.

It took 2 years to undo all the damage the Cardinals had done to him. Based on his performance in Denver he got no coaching in AZ.

You obviously haven't been paying attention....

 

[conraddobler]

Jake Plummer got coaching and players around him. He could have done the same thing had he been supported and coached in AZ. Unless you know him on a personal level how can you comment on his maturity? To question his maturity without knowing the guy is a major insult to him that has no basis to support the claim. The Cardinals blew it with Plummer.

It took 2 years to undo all the damage the Cardinals had done to him. Based on his performance in Denver he got no coaching in AZ.

Jake was looked upon as a savior here and so everyone treated him as such until the last couple years and never got in his grill about mistakes like they should have.

It wouldn't have worked though because the rest of the team was so bad that he wouldn't have stuck out like a sore thumb here like he would in Denver. Those people are serious and when you screw up there everyone knows it, here it just fits right in.

I actually attribute Jake's success now to a coach who understands exactly how to use him, Mike S finally has it figured out what he can let Jake do and what he can't do.

Our coaches never had the luxury of a complete team to tweak for Jake, we had so many holes we couldn't structure it like Denver does, for one thing we couldn't ever run the ball enough to take that much pressure off him.

There are some players who are born to do what they do and all you have to do is let them do it. Jake isn't one of those, he's serviceable if you define his role narrow enough he will thrive, if you give him enough freedom he will hang himself with it.

 

[Lex]

Iv'e never liked the bronco's, but three ring Jake is still the only quarterback:

that was our starting quarterback more than ONE year,

and was the starting quarterback the only time we made the playoffs,

and WON a playoff game,

in Arizona Cardinals history.

Plus, he's fun to watch.

Water under the bridge.

 

[jstadvl]

Everything

about their offenseive system is built to suit what Plummer does well, and always has done well. Here, there wasn't any system, he flew by the seat of his pants. He's also been QB coached on how a moving QB should throw, what spots to look for, where to step and throw, where to step annd throw it away. There IS a major difference in coaching a motion QB and a pocket QB.
Good for Jake! I think it's Indy and the Donkies. Imagine that old Sundevil winning a super bowl? WOW!

 

[BigRedMO]

Just because a person says he was inmature does not neccessarily make it so. A guy could say that just because he doesnt want to say bad things about a former employer. Even if his statement uis true the Cardinals failed in one of their areas they consistently fail at. The process to win is Identify, Develop, and Retain talent. The Broncos succeeded at develpoment the Cards failed. Denver helped mature Plummer, taught him how to play, and used the talents he had which are considerable. If this were a one time occurence for the Cards no big deal. Failure to develop Thomas Jones and o-line meant Cards had to use another draft pick for a RB. Cant waste high picks and win. Failure to develop players happens all the time for the Cardinals. Till the problem is fixed this team has no chance of becoming a good team.

Note to moderators:

One of the ground rules of this website is to not attack posters but instead to talk about the topic. It seems to me that rule is broken often with no consequences. In this thread I was "accused of not paying attention". There was no clarification as to what he was referring to. I think that it is a personal attack to question someone's intelligence, or attentiveness. Posts if not complementary of someone should not refer negative attributions about that person. Address the point of the post and not the person. That is if I understand your rules.

 

[Russ Smith]

Just because a person says he was inmature does not neccessarily make it so. A guy could say that just because he doesnt want to say bad things about a former employer. Even if his statement uis true the Cardinals failed in one of their areas they consistently fail at. The process to win is Identify, Develop, and Retain talent. The Broncos succeeded at develpoment the Cards failed. Denver helped mature Plummer, taught him how to play, and used the talents he had which are considerable. If this were a one time occurence for the Cards no big deal. Failure to develop Thomas Jones and o-line meant Cards had to use another draft pick for a RB. Cant waste high picks and win. Failure to develop players happens all the time for the Cardinals. Till the problem is fixed this team has no chance of becoming a good team.

I don't think it's fair if I don't know Jake for me to assume that when Jake says something he's just being polite and doesn't really mean it. So I take him at face value when he says when I was younger I used to spend my free time playing games, now I'm watching film.

If the Cards can't build an OL and run game with all the caproom we saved by not keeping Jake, why would you assume we would have if we'd kept him?

And the thing Jake fans keep forgetting, the Cards didn't cut Jake or trade Jake they made him an offer before he reached UFA and Jake turned it down. Jake CHOSE to leave, did we want him to leave, almost certainly that's why we wouldn't name him the starter when we made him the offer, but if Jake WANTED to be here, he could have stayed, he chose to move on. And for him it was clearly the right call.

 

[BigRedMO]

Russ you are probably right that Plummer did not dedicate himself to the job while in AZ like he should have done. For whatever reason other NFL teams are successful in getting players to dedicate themselves to the job where the Cardinals fail.


No one will ever convince me that Plummer was not mismanaged by the Cardinals. It is another in a long line of mismanaged opportunities. I think Plummer is going to be one of the best QBs in the league for years to come. He could have done that here. He always has had the talent and ability. He was a guy to build the team around. If the Broncos were able to change his behavior so should have the Cardinals been able to do that. The Broncos were effective in developing Plummer and the Cards were not. If this were a one time occurrence and the Cards had a record of competence I would not be so negative on this lost opportunity.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ you are probably right that Plummer did not dedicate himself to the job while in AZ like he should have done. For whatever reason other NFL teams are successful in getting players to dedicate themselves to the job where the Cardinals fail.


No one will ever convince me that Plummer was not mismanaged by the Cardinals. It is another in a long line of mismanaged opportunities. I think Plummer is going to be one of the best QBs in the league for years to come. He could have done that here. He always has had the talent and ability. He was a guy to build the team around. If the Broncos were able to change his behavior so should have the Cardinals been able to do that. The Broncos were effective in developing Plummer and the Cards were not. If this were a one time occurrence and the Cards had a record of competence I would not be so negative on this lost opportunity.

I'm NOT trying to convince you of that, I said for YEARS the Cards screwed up handing Jake the money too fast, and not having a viable backup to push Jake. I absolutely agree that if Jake had been drafted by another team, he probably would have had a different career path.

But I do think you have to consider there's not a single NFL team that would have showed as much patience with Jake as we did. You think Boller, Carr, Harrington et al will get 6 years, 5 1/2 as the starter before they'll lose their jobs if they continue at their current pace?

In a normal NFL team situation if Jake had played that way, he would have been benched. I really believe not doing that set Jake back, if there are no consequences for bad play, why would you expect the play to get better?

 

[jstadvl]

I don't agree

on the backup or push thing. I gotta go with MO on this. IF, your going to give someone that much cash, you'd better have the system, the coaching, the team, and the plan in place.
Your correct the Cards tendered him an offer. By the time they did, Jake was to blame for everything. Now it's all 21's fault! Seriously. Would you stay where you weren't wanted? Where everything is on you?
Now, going to the donkies was a tad on the dumb side, if that's what a QB is trying to avoid. But you can bet, when the donks courted him, they told him they could fix him and make him all pro.
Agree, Plummer admitted he didn't do what he does now, back then. Coaching? Staff? You bet.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I think it's because we were never winning.

Yeah I kinda gathered that Einstein, thanks!

I just ment only 39 times he threw the ball while ahead seems low even for a team like the Cards.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Iv'e never liked the bronco's, but three ring Jake is still the only quarterback:

that was our starting quarterback more than ONE year,

and was the starting quarterback the only time we made the playoffs,

and WON a playoff game,

in Arizona Cardinals history.

Plus, he's fun to watch.

Water under the bridge.

Yeah he sure was fun when he threw 30 first quarter picks.! wooohooo What a blast!

 

[Russ Smith]

on the backup or push thing. I gotta go with MO on this. IF, your going to give someone that much cash, you'd better have the system, the coaching, the team, and the plan in place.
Your correct the Cards tendered him an offer. By the time they did, Jake was to blame for everything. Now it's all 21's fault! Seriously. Would you stay where you weren't wanted? Where everything is on you?
Now, going to the donkies was a tad on the dumb side, if that's what a QB is trying to avoid. But you can bet, when the donks courted him, they told him they could fix him and make him all pro.
Agree, Plummer admitted he didn't do what he does now, back then. Coaching? Staff? You bet.

I don't want to rehash years of arguments but if the cards paid Jake less money we might have had a better OL(Lomas Brown) better FB(Centers) and maybe his supporting cast would have been better?

There are just certain things Jake did or said that always convinced me he just didn't get it. Like signign a huge contract with a record bonus and then saying he was surprised at how big it was and would have glady accepted less. I know he was trying to say I'm not about the money but when the contract had already set several of his teammates out looking for more money the absolute WORST thing you could say is gee I didn't need that huge bonus.

We committed to Jake, we brought in an OC to build around him, we drafted to build around him, but he never got any better. So when you go somewhere else and then admit you never attended post season workouts, never watched film etc, I have a hard time blaming the team for that they can't lock Jake in the room and make him watch film at some point it becomes the responsibility of the player too.

 

[red desert]

There you go agian Ian.

This Defense was terrible with Berry, Dansby, Davis, and Rolle all healthy. Saying they would be good if thery didnt get hurt is just wishful thinking.

Thank you.

 

[BigRedMO]

When Plummer came to the Cards he had no NFL experience. He needed someone to tell him what an NFL QB needs to do to prepare. He probably prepared likea college QB because that was what he knew. If you are hired for a new job dont you expect your employer to tell you what he expects and to train you if neccessary.

His contract could have been written to require off season work outs and film study if neccessary. I dont think that would have been neccessary had he had the right mentor. There is nobody that wants to fail. He was the starting QB for his hometown team after playing college football there. He had every reason to want to succeed. I believe he prepared how he thought he should prepare. If it was not adequate preperation the Cards should have educated him.

One undeniable fact is Plummer can play. Another undeniable fact is had Plummer succeeded in AZ the Cards would be better. Same thing if Thomas Jones had succeeded. That pick on Harrington could have been used on an offensive lineman. There is an undeniable pattern of players that leave and become better. The preponderance of the evidence is that the majority of fault for not developing players resides with the Cards.